First Crusade : Discussion

[kobiraaz]

This thread is to discuss about everything related to 1st crusade..... Please Contribute to make it a rich thread

Date: 1096 -1099

Location : Near East ( Anatolia , Palestine )

Green: Muslim Territory
Pink: Greek Christian Territory
Yellow: Armenian Christian Territory
Blue Arrow: Crusader Movement
Red Arrow: Muslim Army Movement


Belligerents :
Crusaders Holy Roman Empire, Kingdom of France, Kingdom of England, Byzantine Empire, Kingdom of Armenia

Key Crusader Leaders : Peter the Hermit (priest), Raymond (Count of Toulouse), Godfrey ( Duke of Lorraine), Hugh of France, Baldwin of Boulogne, Bohemond of Taranto, Alexios ( Emperor of Byzantine)



Vs Muslims ( Seljuq Turks, Fatimid Empire)
Key Muslim Leader: Kilij Arslan I (Seljuq Sultan)

Strength:
Crusaders: 60,000 (unprofessional /Peasants)
15,000 Professional Frenchmen Under Raymond
20,000 Professional Northern Frenchmen Under Duke of Godfrey
Unknown From Italy and Normandy led by Bohemond
2000 Byzantine Soldiers
Muslims: Unknown

Result: Decisive Crusader victory

Territorial changes: Establishment of "crusader states" of Edessa, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Tripoli in Palestine and Syria

 

[kobiraaz]

Typical Crusader Armor of 1st Crusade ..........

Fav Type of Horse: Stallion ( suited Knight warfare, brave and capable of Going right into the thick of Battle)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Typical Crusader Armor of 1st Crusade ..........

Fav Type of Horse: Stallion ( suited Knight warfare, brave and capable of Going right into the thick of Battle)

At this stage, when it is not clear what this discussion is supposed to do, or where it is supposed to go, my only comment is that the horse shown is not a crusader man-at-arms horse. It is quite clearly, from its conformation and general shape, an English thoroughbred, at worst, an Irish hunter, that is, a thoroughbred cross-bred with non-thoroughbred stock to give a sturdier animal for hunt use. Even so, its Arab heritage is unmistakable.

This breed of horse was evolved through careful and planned breeding only in much later centuries. There was nothing like it during the crusades, nothing between the Arabs that the Muslim side rode, and the destriers that were coming into fashion to bear the huge weight of chain-mail carried by the man-at-arms. True destriers, cross-bred with plough-horse stock, came in later, when the even heavier plate armour made its appearance, but heavier horses were needed even at this stage.

PS: A stallion is not a type of horse, it is a male horse. There is no earthly reason why a mare might not have been used to carry a man-at-arms.

 

[kobiraaz]

Seljuk Turks fought in a completely different way , They didnt use their swords until the enemy were already frighten, confused and badly damaged. They used horse archers, quickly circling around the enemy and taking them off. They used to ride Mare unlike Europeans as mares were faster and suitable of attacking and running away!!

 

[Juice]

PS....the very first pic is of Tuetonic Knights from around the Baltic...

 

[Joe Shearer]

PS....the very first pic is of Tuetonic Knights from around the Baltic...

!!!

So it is. Nice catch. That's Teutonic, since we are pressing Grundlichkeit.

 

[kobiraaz]

PS....the very first pic is of Tuetonic Knights from around the Baltic...

okk all professionals here, thanks for corrections......

At this stage, when it is not clear what this discussion is supposed to do, or where it is supposed to go, my only comment is that the horse shown is not a crusader man-at-arms horse. It is quite clearly, from its conformation and general shape, an English thoroughbred, at worst, an Irish hunter, that is, a thoroughbred cross-bred with non-thoroughbred stock to give a sturdier animal for hunt use. Even so, its Arab heritage is unmistakable.

This breed of horse was evolved through careful and planned breeding only in much later centuries. There was nothing like it during the crusades, nothing between the Arabs that the Muslim side rode, and the destriers that were coming into fashion to bear the huge weight of chain-mail carried by the man-at-arms. True destriers, cross-bred with plough-horse stock, came in later, when the even heavier plate armour made its appearance, but heavier horses were needed even at this stage.

PS: A stallion is not a type of horse, it is a male horse. There is no earthly reason why a mare might not have been used to carry a man-at-arms.

yeah its Irish, In 1st Crusade they even used Goat for transport purposes, Anglo Norman Stallions were Fav of french nights, i was just not careful while posting, Thanks... I am just 21 and my knowledge is very limited...... keep posting.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

okk all professionals here, thanks for corrections......



yeah its Irish, In 1st Crusade they even used Goat for transport purposes, Anglo Norman Stallions were Fav of french nights, i was just not careful while posting, Thanks... I am just 21 and my knowledge is very limited...... keep posting.....

LOL

That is not a crime. It is a condition out of which many of us grew.

I am pleased with myself for having spotted that the horse was not wholly a thoroughbred, but had some cold-blooded ancestry. So some of the old skills remain after all these years.

Incidentally, that picture of the mare in the paddock: first, I thought it was Arab, but then looked closely at her nose, and started wondering if she is a Turkish or central Asian breed. Those short legs....

 

[AUz]

Turks fought brilliantly against the Crusaders. Actually , even in first Crusade , Islamic Military Power almost completely annihilated Crusader army UNTIL one traitor opened the doors of Islamic defenses at Antioch. Then , it was all crusaders as they were FILLED with anger/desperation/hate by that time.

Yaigay Shian....Turkish Defender of Antioch.. deprived crusaders food and water supplies for MONTHS!..Crusaders were forced to drink the blood of their horses!!! "Feroz"..A Muslim traitor in Antioch opened the doors of the city to the Crusaders..Crusaders had no food.They were outside the city for 8th months.They were forced to drink blood..they were ANGRY !...and when they got a chance...they just BUTCHERED MUSLIMS (AND christians in the city )

Interestingly , if Feroz had not opened the doors of Antioch... Crusader Army would have been utterly pulverized by Islamic Military Power in the region. Why is that? Well Yaigay Shian , while he was holding Crusaders outside his city , had sent a secret message to the central Turkish authorities about Crusaders...and the main Turkish military arrived just few days after Crusaders took Antioch. So if Feroz had not opened the doors of the city .... weak , thirsty , desperate , disease stricken crusade army would've face a surprise massive Turkish onslaught from the behind!

Crusaders were fierce warriors...but so were the Turks!

Anyways , crusades changed the Europe forever. It was due to crusades that Europeans had came in contact with Islamic Civilization of that time..and this later planted the seeds of renaissance in Europe...as Europeans got science , technology , ideas , Greek works , indian-arab maths etc from Muslims later on...but thats another topic.

My favorite part of whole Crusade episode is Salahudin vs Richard ..The lionheart rivalry! The best of Arabs vs the best of Europe!

 

[KS]

Yaigay Shian....Turkish Defender of Antioch.. deprived crusaders food and water supplies for MONTHS!..

How could a defender who is inside the wall, deprive the forces who are undertaking the siege outside the wall of food and water ? Can you explain ?

 

[neokautilya2]

Turks fought brilliantly against the Crusaders. Actually , even in first Crusade , Islamic Military Power almost completely annihilated Crusader army UNTIL one traitor opened the doors of Islamic defenses at Antioch. Then , it was all crusaders as they were FILLED with anger/desperation/hate by that time.

Yaigay Shian....Turkish Defender of Antioch.. deprived crusaders food and water supplies for MONTHS!..Crusaders were forced to drink the blood of their horses!!! "Feroz"..A Muslim traitor in Antioch opened the doors of the city to the Crusaders..Crusaders had no food.They were outside the city for 8th months.They were forced to drink blood..they were ANGRY !...and when they got a chance...they just BUTCHERED MUSLIMS (AND christians in the city )

Interestingly , if Feroz had not opened the doors of Antioch... Crusader Army would have been utterly pulverized by Islamic Military Power in the region. Why is that? Well Yaigay Shian , while he was holding Crusaders outside his city , had sent a secret message to the central Turkish authorities about Crusaders...and the main Turkish military arrived just few days after Crusaders took Antioch. So if Feroz had not opened the doors of the city .... weak , thirsty , desperate , disease stricken crusade army would've face a surprise massive Turkish onslaught from the behind!

Crusaders were fierce warriors...but so were the Turks!

Anyways , crusades changed the Europe forever. It was due to crusades that Europeans had came in contact with Islamic Civilization of that time..and this later planted the seeds of renaissance in Europe...as Europeans got science , technology , ideas , Greek works , indian-arab maths etc from Muslims later on...but thats another topic.

My favorite part of whole Crusade episode is Salahudin vs Richard ..The lionheart rivalry! The best of Arabs vs the best of Europe!

BOLD PART- very interesting

 

[kobiraaz]

Background:

Turks were nomadic warriors of central Asia, newly converted to Islam. They invaded part of Byzantine Emperor Alexios' empire and had taken over almost all of Anatolia at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.

Byzantine territory (purple), Byzantine attacks (red) and Seljuk attacks (green)


20 years later Alexios was ready to kick them out. But he needed more soldiers. In 1095 Turks established their capital only 100 miles away from Constantinople. Alexios decided to take help from Christians and sent a letter to pope asking for help.

 

[kobiraaz]

How could a defender who is inside the wall, deprive the forces who are undertaking the siege outside the wall of food and water ? Can you explain ?

at 1st Muslims were inside the wall, then a recent convert betrayed and opened the gate. All muslims were slaughtered. After that new batch of turkish soldiers surrounded the fort from outside.......

 

[KS]

at 1st Muslims were inside the wall, then a recent convert betrayed and opened the gate. All muslims were slaughtered. After that new batch of turkish soldiers surrounded the fort from outside.......

That was not what was mentioned in the post. It said "Yaigay Shian....Turkish Defender of Antioch.. deprived crusaders food and water supplies for MONTHS!". How could a defender deprive the attacker of food and supplies..I could not get that part.

 

[AUz]

How could a defender who is inside the wall, deprive the forces who are undertaking the siege outside the wall of food and water ? Can you explain ?

Antioch wasn't a huge city. But Yaigay Shaiyan was an exceptional commander (well exceptional for Crusaders...by Turkish standards..he was O.K) ... He defended his city so well that even after 8 MONTHS of siege , Crusaders couldn't take the city (that was supposed to be taken in 2 weeks at max! lol)....So Crusaders ran out of food/supplies etc. Plus : They were outside open in cold/hot/dryness/rain whatever came in those 8 months...So this situation caused a great misery for the crusaders....There was no comprehensive supply lines during that siege...

In this way , he 'deprived' crusaders from food , water etc ...

Plus : He also sent 'special soldiers' at night with the task to attack Crusader's camp , food storages , water tanks etc etc etc...

He also disrupted (or tried to) some natural water supplies that crusaders might use...

Yaigay Shaiyan alone took on WHOLE Crusader Army and did a exceptional job in defending his city.

Edit : And oh yeah , Yaigay Shaiyan had 'tricked' Christians of Antioch to go outside and dig trenches in the defence of the city..when they were done...he closed the doors of the city. He feared a Christian treason in favor of Crusader Army (Antioch is a very 'holy' city in Christianity...Probably second to Jerusalem only..so Christians favoring Crusaders was a possibility)....So crusaders army had to 'feed' these christians of antioch too...and this caused further strain on Crusaders' food stocks...