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Will the fresh Pakistani Polls be rigged??

aryan2007

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Quoting New York Times
Lawyer Says Pakistan Heading Toward ‘Rigged’ Vote
By JANE PERLEZ: New York Times, December 1, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Nov. 30 — A corporate lawyer dressed in a pinstriped suit, Munawar Akhtar, 71, clutched a poster of a defiant colleague held in solitary confinement for three weeks, and marched Friday to the house of the dismissed chief justice of the Supreme Court.

The act of solidarity was necessary, the gray-haired Mr. Akhtar said, because the promise of President Pervez Musharraf to lift emergency rule in two weeks was deceptive.

The chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, remains under house arrest. Without his reinstatement and the restoration of other judges who were also dismissed, Mr. Akhtar said, the parliamentary elections scheduled for Jan. 8 cannot meet international standards.

“No matter how many observers you send, the elections will still be rigged and we will have what Pakistan has been going through for the past 55 years,” said Mr. Akhtar, a partner in the Islamabad branch of the London law firm Amhurst Brown Colombotti, as he and the protesters faced a phalanx of 500 policemen outside Mr. Chaudhry’s house.

Pakistan’s lawyers have led the opposition to Mr. Musharraf since his dismissal of the Supreme Court and declaration of emergency rule on Nov. 3. Some observers say Mr. Musharraf is relaxing strictures after being sworn in as a civilian president on Thursday morning and announcing that night that he would lift emergency rule on Dec. 16. But the lawyers are saying he is not really doing so.

Stories of rough prison treatment of lawyers who were arrested after Nov. 3 are emerging through relatives.

Munir Malik, 57, a former head of the Supreme Court Bar Association whose photograph was displayed at Friday’s protest, was held in a remote jail in solitary confinement in a cell so tiny he could not stretch his legs, said his nephew, Jahmasp R. Razvi.

A neon light shone into the cell, making it almost impossible for Mr. Malik to sleep, Mr. Razvi said. Mr. Malik’s notebook and pencil were confiscated, and in protest over what he considered the inhuman conditions, Mr. Malik went on a hunger strike, Mr. Razvi said.

Mr. Malik was hospitalized in Islamabad last weekend with severe kidney problems. He remains in a hospital but has been formally released from detention.

Three other leading lawyers remain under house arrest, including Aitzaz Ahsan, the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association.

Sixty of about 100 judges who served on the Supreme Court and four provincial high courts have been ordered to remain in their homes because they have refused to take the new oath of office under emergency rule, according to Wajihuddin Ahmed, a former Supreme Court judge.

The chief justice and his court were the centerpiece of Mr. Musharraf’s emergency decree. The president accused the court, and Mr. Chaudhry in particular, of being ready to block his re-election, and dismissed the entire bench.

Mr. Musharraf’s second term was ratified by a more pliant Supreme Court.

Some opposition political parties have said they will boycott the parliamentary elections unless the court is allowed back by Dec. 15. But one of the major parties, the Pakistan Peoples Party, led by Benazir Bhutto, has announced it will take part in the elections, and it is not clear whether the boycott will hold.

The United States and other Western governments have stopped short of calling for the restoration of the Supreme Court, even as they have pressed Mr. Musharraf to lift emergency rule in time for the elections.

The Western governments have been reluctant to insist on the return of the old Supreme Court because, like Mr. Musharraf, they say Mr. Chaudhry was interfering in the executive branch, a Western diplomat said.

Some lawyers said they were disappointed that Western diplomats who had met with leaders of the opposition had not shown the same interest in meeting them.

Recounting the experiences of the lawyers in jail, relatives told of sleep deprivation, cold and sleeping on stone floors. Tariq Mehmood, 57, a retired judge, spent three weeks on the floor of a cell, with no heating or bedding, said his wife, Sohaila Tariq, who is also a lawyer.

Her sons were able to visit him in the Sahiwal jail, about an eight-hour drive south from their Lahore home, she said. But she was forbidden to see him, she said.

He was transferred to a Lahore hospital on Monday suffering from exhaustion and back and nerve problems. “He’s looking very weak,” Ms. Tariq said after visiting him on Tuesday.

She said that her husband was still resolute and that his first words to her were, “I am on the path of truth.”

A doctor at the hospital said the jailers had used bright lights, noise and fighting tomcats to keep Mr. Tariq awake in the isolation cell. He has been told he will be detained for three months, Mrs. Tariq said.

Mr. Ahsan, now in confinement at his house, where visitors beyond his family are forbidden, was also kept awake by bright lights in a jail in Rawalpindi, said his wife, Bushra Ahsan.

The number of police guards at Mr. Ahsan’s house in Lahore has been increased to 40, from 20, and jail officials sit at the three entrances to the house and control who goes in and out with locks they have installed on the doors, Ms. Ahsan said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/world/asia/01pakistan.html?ref=asia



My question is what is in store for Pakistan in the immediate future in view of these polls!!!
 
Quoting New York Times
Lawyer Says Pakistan Heading Toward ‘Rigged’ Vote
By JANE PERLEZ: New York Times, December 1, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Nov. 30 — A corporate lawyer dressed in a pinstriped suit, Munawar Akhtar, 71, clutched a poster of a defiant colleague held in solitary confinement for three weeks, and marched Friday to the house of the dismissed chief justice of the Supreme Court.

The act of solidarity was necessary, the gray-haired Mr. Akhtar said, because the promise of President Pervez Musharraf to lift emergency rule in two weeks was deceptive.

The chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, remains under house arrest. Without his reinstatement and the restoration of other judges who were also dismissed, Mr. Akhtar said, the parliamentary elections scheduled for Jan. 8 cannot meet international standards.

“No matter how many observers you send, the elections will still be rigged and we will have what Pakistan has been going through for the past 55 years,” said Mr. Akhtar, a partner in the Islamabad branch of the London law firm Amhurst Brown Colombotti, as he and the protesters faced a phalanx of 500 policemen outside Mr. Chaudhry’s house.

Pakistan’s lawyers have led the opposition to Mr. Musharraf since his dismissal of the Supreme Court and declaration of emergency rule on Nov. 3. Some observers say Mr. Musharraf is relaxing strictures after being sworn in as a civilian president on Thursday morning and announcing that night that he would lift emergency rule on Dec. 16. But the lawyers are saying he is not really doing so.

Stories of rough prison treatment of lawyers who were arrested after Nov. 3 are emerging through relatives.

Munir Malik, 57, a former head of the Supreme Court Bar Association whose photograph was displayed at Friday’s protest, was held in a remote jail in solitary confinement in a cell so tiny he could not stretch his legs, said his nephew, Jahmasp R. Razvi.

A neon light shone into the cell, making it almost impossible for Mr. Malik to sleep, Mr. Razvi said. Mr. Malik’s notebook and pencil were confiscated, and in protest over what he considered the inhuman conditions, Mr. Malik went on a hunger strike, Mr. Razvi said.

Mr. Malik was hospitalized in Islamabad last weekend with severe kidney problems. He remains in a hospital but has been formally released from detention.

Three other leading lawyers remain under house arrest, including Aitzaz Ahsan, the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association.

Sixty of about 100 judges who served on the Supreme Court and four provincial high courts have been ordered to remain in their homes because they have refused to take the new oath of office under emergency rule, according to Wajihuddin Ahmed, a former Supreme Court judge.

The chief justice and his court were the centerpiece of Mr. Musharraf’s emergency decree. The president accused the court, and Mr. Chaudhry in particular, of being ready to block his re-election, and dismissed the entire bench.

Mr. Musharraf’s second term was ratified by a more pliant Supreme Court.

Some opposition political parties have said they will boycott the parliamentary elections unless the court is allowed back by Dec. 15. But one of the major parties, the Pakistan Peoples Party, led by Benazir Bhutto, has announced it will take part in the elections, and it is not clear whether the boycott will hold.

The United States and other Western governments have stopped short of calling for the restoration of the Supreme Court, even as they have pressed Mr. Musharraf to lift emergency rule in time for the elections.

The Western governments have been reluctant to insist on the return of the old Supreme Court because, like Mr. Musharraf, they say Mr. Chaudhry was interfering in the executive branch, a Western diplomat said.

Some lawyers said they were disappointed that Western diplomats who had met with leaders of the opposition had not shown the same interest in meeting them.

Recounting the experiences of the lawyers in jail, relatives told of sleep deprivation, cold and sleeping on stone floors. Tariq Mehmood, 57, a retired judge, spent three weeks on the floor of a cell, with no heating or bedding, said his wife, Sohaila Tariq, who is also a lawyer.

Her sons were able to visit him in the Sahiwal jail, about an eight-hour drive south from their Lahore home, she said. But she was forbidden to see him, she said.

He was transferred to a Lahore hospital on Monday suffering from exhaustion and back and nerve problems. “He’s looking very weak,” Ms. Tariq said after visiting him on Tuesday.

She said that her husband was still resolute and that his first words to her were, “I am on the path of truth.”

A doctor at the hospital said the jailers had used bright lights, noise and fighting tomcats to keep Mr. Tariq awake in the isolation cell. He has been told he will be detained for three months, Mrs. Tariq said.

Mr. Ahsan, now in confinement at his house, where visitors beyond his family are forbidden, was also kept awake by bright lights in a jail in Rawalpindi, said his wife, Bushra Ahsan.

The number of police guards at Mr. Ahsan’s house in Lahore has been increased to 40, from 20, and jail officials sit at the three entrances to the house and control who goes in and out with locks they have installed on the doors, Ms. Ahsan said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/world/asia/01pakistan.html?ref=asia



My question is what is in store for Pakistan in the immediate future in view of these polls!!!
The former CJ is overstating his importance for Free and Fair elections...

1. International neutral observers will be there. IC says it won't make any difference... Why? He doesn't mention that.

2. An agent from every party will be present at the polling booths.

3. The Agents would monitory BOTH, the voting as well as the counting process alongside the neutral observers. Previously the agents were only involved with the voting monitoring.

4. The ballot boxes would be transparent rather than their tradition green metal boxes. This would show that no fake votes have already been put into the boxes.

5. The announcements of votes, who has gotten what would be done right at the polling booth itself. So if a seat consists of votes for 3 polling booths. We'll just calculate the announced scores of all three venues, add them up and the winner will be the highest.

This is a very solid plan.
 
The former CJ is overstating his importance for Free and Fair elections...

1. International neutral observers will be there. IC says it won't make any difference... Why? He doesn't mention that.

2. An agent from every party will be present at the polling booths.

3. The Agents would monitory BOTH, the voting as well as the counting process alongside the neutral observers. Previously the agents were only involved with the voting monitoring.

4. The ballot boxes would be transparent rather than their tradition green metal boxes. This would show that no fake votes have already been put into the boxes.

5. The announcements of votes, who has gotten what would be done right at the polling booth itself. So if a seat consists of votes for 3 polling booths. We'll just calculate the announced scores of all three venues, add them up and the winner will be the highest.

This is a very solid plan.



as per the polls.. suppose in Leghari or Tiwana or in the areas of the multitude of Tribal Sardars, what will happen?? how will you ensure the non-connivance of polling agents..
why has not anyone though of video surveillance for known troubled spots or evm's(electronic voting machine's ??)... etc..

My main aim still remains
""
My question is what is in store for Pakistan in the immediate future in view of these polls!!!
""
 
as per the polls.. suppose in Leghari or Tiwana or in the areas of the multitude of Tribal Sardars, what will happen?? how will you ensure the non-connivance of polling agents..
why has not anyone though of video surveillance for known troubled spots or evm's(electronic voting machine's ??)... etc..

EVMs are not a good idea where you have people questioning the electoral process. Nothing beats good old solid eyeball to paper, kind of auditing.

It is the responsibility of International observers and the political parties to make enough observers and agents available to man each and every polling booth in the country.

You know what would happen in some places? These agents would come each with a mob and there would be extreme electioneering going on at the polling booth till violence breaks out.

""
My question is what is in store for Pakistan in the immediate future in view of these polls!!!
""
Elections, hor ki?
 
even under the best laid plans selective rigging will take place. e.g. in contests where the favourite will win by big margins, nothing will be done. it will be the close contests where the outcome could go either way, the selective rigging will take place. how they plan to do this under the observation of the party reps and the international observers has to be seen.
selective rigging has always been the norm. this is the way the military/civilian establishment controls the country.
 
even under the best laid plans selective rigging will take place. e.g. in contests where the favourite will win by big margins, nothing will be done. it will be the close contests where the outcome could go either way, the selective rigging will take place. how they plan to do this under the observation of the party reps and the international observers has to be seen.
selective rigging has always been the norm. this is the way the military/civilian establishment controls the country.

In our political society anybody, who is feeling unsecure as per Electoral strenght has always cried ... Elections are rigged :blah: :blah:

Agreed that establishment has played a role in some elections but do understand that the rigged elections where mostly held under democratic rules and the same political players now contending were involved in that manupilation of Elections..

If these elections are not selection based that we are going to see a mixed political strenght and no complete majority Party will be sitting in NA........ This best can portray the Elections credibility..
 
Will international observers be present at all?
 
People largely claim 2002 elections were rigged, but we all know how super-popular Musharraf was at that time. Also consider this fact, the highest votes were won by PPP-P and not by PML-Q.

It's only the coalition with MQM that brought this government in power. If PPP-P and PML-N and MMA would've all worked together they would've been in power. They had that choice, but they never did so.

Who rigs an election and then keeps such an easy way to lose out? Musharraf didn't make them not trust each other.
 
In Pakistan,any party that loses the elections always cries blue murder. The facts are that in 2002 election:

PPP won in their traditional strongholds whereas PPP was wiped out in 1996 elections held under then caretaker govt.

MQM won from their strongholds. Only upset was rise of MMA at the expense of ANP in NWFP and Baluchistan. No doubt some rigging takes place thru bussing of voters and double voting. But nothing on the scale that happened in 1976 elections rigged by Bhutto.

IMO Musharraf will allow relatively fair elections. However, it still remains to be seen if elections do actually take place. Boycott of elections by major parties will surely result in Martial Law with Kiani taking over. May be that is what many right wing parties really want.
 
In Pakistan,any party that loses the elections always cries blue murder. The facts are that in 2002 election:

PPP won in their traditional strongholds whereas PPP was wiped out in 1996 elections held under then caretaker govt.

MQM won from their strongholds. Only upset was rise of MMA at the expense of ANP in NWFP and Baluchistan. No doubt some rigging takes place thru bussing of voters and double voting. But nothing on the scale that happened in 1976 elections rigged by Bhutto.

IMO Musharraf will allow relatively fair elections. However, it still remains to be seen if elections do actually take place. Boycott of elections by major parties will surely result in Martial Law with Kiani taking over. May be that is what many right wing parties really want.

Yes the major source of Destablization of Pakistan are these Democratic forces... They only want to Rule and Eat... None of them care about the Country and its a shame that our people are so ignorant that they still like these people.
 
Boycott of elections by major parties will surely result in Martial Law with Kiani taking over. May be that is what many right wing parties really want.

Thats quite troubling Niaz sahib. Could you expound upon that train of thought a bit more?

My own ideas of the aftermath of a boycott- Musharraf allied forces win in a landslide, but it is nonetheless a victory in an "election" which the West will find far more palatable, and allow the US far more leeway in continuing to defend and support Musharaf. Its actual effects on governance would be to strengthen the hands of the military through Musharraf and the level of "civic agitation" would essentially remain the same and along the same lines. So introducing Martial Law at such a junction, when you hold all the cards anyway, would be quite detrimental.

I understand that you might be suggesting that Kiyani would do so to remove the lightening rod figure of Musharaf, and therefore ensure the participation of all political parties, but that would put Pakistan back in the same position it was in pre-emergency - and if that really was the optimal situation from Kiyanis standpoint, he wouldn't have gone along with the decision to impose emergency in the first place (as far as we know he didn't oppose it).
 
In
IMO Musharraf will allow relatively fair elections. However, it still remains to be seen if elections do actually take place. Boycott of elections by major parties will surely result in Martial Law with Kiani taking over. May be that is what many right wing parties really want.

if the BB and NS parties boycott the elections,(and deep down musharraf wants this to happen) the elections will be the most free and fair and the outcome will not be challenged by the international community bcuz musharraf gave them(BB/NS) a chance to contest but they did not take it.no one cares about the APDM bcuz there is no one of real substance there.
it will be a free ride for musharraf and this is exactly what the west wants.
 
if the BB and NS parties boycott the elections,(and deep down musharraf wants this to happen) the elections will be the most free and fair and the outcome will not be challenged by the international community bcuz musharraf gave them(BB/NS) a chance to contest but they did not take it.no one cares about the APDM bcuz there is no one of real substance there.
it will be a free ride for musharraf and this is exactly what the west wants.

Fatman,

I have to disagree with you on what the West wants. I don't think Musharraf fits the bill for them anymore - he has shown himself to be independent to quite an extent. While he may still have GB's support, I believe US institutions would much rather prefer BB, someone not overly infected with a protect "national security and strategic assets at all costs" mindset, and who is willing to compromise on AQ Khan etc.
 
as per the polls.. suppose in Leghari or Tiwana or in the areas of the multitude of Tribal Sardars, what will happen?? how will you ensure the non-connivance of polling agents..
how does, in your opinion polling agents can help to rig the elections?
Have you ever wondered how many polling agents Sardar Leghari can influence without comming to lime light and has he been doing the same in all previous elections?
Do you really believe that the opposing Sardar candidate will have no influence over any agents?
why has not anyone though of video surveillance for known troubled spots or evm's(electronic voting machine's ??)... etc..
I fully agree to adopt all means of survellance but why we expect Mr. Musharraf always to deliver where previous previous regimes failed.
I also belive who have to criticize for the sake of criticism will still be criticising. Our neighbor India never had such cameras in the constituencies of Thakurs, still they call themself democratic!!!!
BTW, electronic voting machines only help to count the votes and are still be in the hands of polling agents.
In my opinion, democracy is not limited to elections it should be practiced by elected in post election days.

My main aim still remains
""
My question is what is in store for Pakistan in the immediate future in view of these polls!!!
""
I don't think it will help Pakistan, if some one disclose you every thing what is in Pakistan's store.
 
I think this election will be as free as an election can be. There is little incentive left for Musharraf to rig the election, he knows the West will be keeping a close eye on this one and wants BB to be a player in Pakistani parliment. If BB and NS choose to boycott the election, they will only be hurting themselves as the election will go ahead no matter what and the West will not help them jump on the bandwagon after the election. In the past, after every election the losers cry rigging and that's just the norm, they never present any proof. If the parties are so concerned about rigging, maybe they should do what Americans did for the 2006 US Congress elections: video the vote. Volunteers of a US organization made the idea popular on YouTube, and on election day people were present at the polling booths exposing irregularities.

DaEECHjWptU[/media] - Video the Vote 2006
 
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