World Armies - India

[RedBaron]

Army Aviation Order of Battle
The Army Aviation Corps Centre is at Nasik, Maharashtra. There are six Chetak sqdns and six Cheetah Sqdns at divisional level. There is a varying number of reconnaissance and observation flights, generally on detachment from parent sqdns. A further sqdn (201) is equipped with the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The Army Aviation does not have a attack role, and its efforts to acquire this capability have been thwarted by the air force.

Having attack helis supporting RR battalions would be useful in Kashmir.Time and again we hear about cordons thrown around militants holed up in the forests in Kashmir and three days later media reports that they got away...they could also support RR in urban combing ops. Otherwise IAF has adequately supported IA ground operations in past conflicts.
In a future NCW world, it would be interesting to see how IA leverages the IAF information grid.

 

[Tornado]

Organisation

Training Command (ARTRAC)
ARTRAC (HQ, Shimla, Utter Pradesh) is responsible for developing and disseminating tactics and doctrines for the army in all phases of war, with emphasis on combined arms operations.

Correction; APTRAC HQ is in Himachal and not in Utter Pradesh.

 

[niaz]

...since this thread has not generated much interest or dialouge, i feel continuing this info-thread (which requires a lot of time) may not be worthwhile!

Thanks to all for their time.

Dear Fatman,

Your efforts are most appreciated. There is little to discuss regarding the info about quantity and organization because both Indian and Pakistan armies are based upon the ‘Triangular’ (three companies to a battalion, and three battalions to a brigade etc) British system. However, India has recently switched over to an all arms unified Command system whereas Pakistan has not.

Arab Israeli war conclusively demonstrated superiority of Israeli Officer Class over their Arab counter parts. This is understandable due to nature of the Arab society where the family prestige take precedence over merit. This is also true to some extent in Pakistan and India (nepotism). Once you have finished, Indian unified command system, training and quality of the officers down to NCO level would an interesting topic of discussion.

It was generally said that man to man a British Infantry Soldier was the best. How does a Pakistani or Indian soldier compared to US, French or Russian?

 

[MIG_ACE]

I have always wondered why the Mi-25/35s aren't operated by the army instead of the air force. It must be cumbersome for army units on the ground to call the air force every time they need close air support or limited anti-tank assistance and especially during terrorist combing operations as Red Baron was saying. The selfishness of the air force in not letting the army acquire attack helos may prove costly.

 

[Tornado]

Indian Army’s record has many parallels with that of the Indian cricket team; one unmitigated disaster (1962), one unqualified success (1971), two stalemates (1948 and 1965), a cataclysmic foreign policy blunder (IPKF in Sri Lanka) and a pyrrhic PR victory in Kargil (1999). The pusillanimous display by the top brass and their strategic and leadership failures have been offset by bravery and courage of young officers and soldiers.read

 

[fatman17]

WoW! i guess i woke everyone up!
thanks and cheers!

 

[Kasrkin]

Your frame of reference is different: Pak media is vociferous about PA only within the context of ongoing FATA/Swat operations.

No. My frame of reference is the same. FATA and Swat is to PA what Kashmir and others have been to the IA for a long time. It just goes to show, doesn't it? The Kargil affair too was much ranted about right across and before Musharraf's time. Most Pakistanis do believe that the politicians let Pakistan down, and retired generals have never said that the PA could not have taken on the IA or that what Nawaz Sharif did was right. They just gave different perspectives while maintaining the notion of PA's superiority, which our media and writers in particular blew out of proportion. You should seriously take a look at some of our fellow members in the WoT forum like Pashtun and Anwar2, they accuse the PA of trying to strangle the nation from the start and the WoT is just another ‘proof’ for them. Oh yes, Pakistan is a very polarized society and large segments of this nation and its media love nothing more than bashing the PA. These tendencies are MUCH more checked in India, in India its excessive nationalistic bias is what has turned the ‘independent media’ into a bit of a joke.

 

[Contrarian]

Your frame of reference is different: Pak media is vociferous about PA only within the context of ongoing FATA/Swat operations.

No. My frame of reference is the same. FATA and Swat is to PA what Kashmir and others have been to the IA for a long time. It just goes to show, doesn't it? The Kargil affair too was much ranted about right across and before Musharraf's time. Most Pakistanis do believe that the politicians let Pakistan down, and retired generals have never said that the PA could not have taken on the IA or that what Nawaz Sharif did was right. They just gave different perspectives while maintaining the notion of PA's superiority, which our media and writers in particular blew out of proportion. You should seriously take a look at some of our fellow members in the WoT forum like Pashtun and Anwar2, they accuse the PA of trying to strangle the nation from the start and the WoT is just another ‘proof’ for them. Oh yes, Pakistan is a very polarized society and large segments of this nation and its media love nothing more than bashing the PA. These tendencies are MUCH more checked in India, in India its excessive nationalistic bias is what has turned the ‘independent media’ into a bit of a joke.

It was this 'joke', that resulted in the Home Minister of India, Chief Minister of Maharashtra to resign. I will wait to see the next time Pakistani media do something similar.

Your society is polarized, that is why you have people criticizing the PA, because they are attacking Islamist people. The attack on Lal Masjid and the like. Its because of a tendency that has been encouraged in Pakistan by its rulers-Islam first and foremost. And PA as a 'Muslim Army' fighting the Hindu Indians. It is this, which has resulted in your media being critical, and media at times glorifying terrorists.

 

[deltacamelately]

Your frame of reference is different: Pak media is vociferous about PA only within the context of ongoing FATA/Swat operations.

No. My frame of reference is the same. FATA and Swat is to PA what Kashmir and others have been to the IA for a long time. It just goes to show, doesn't it? The Kargil affair too was much ranted about right across and before Musharraf's time. Most Pakistanis do believe that the politicians let Pakistan down, and retired generals have never said that the PA could not have taken on the IA or that what Nawaz Sharif did was right. They just gave different perspectives while maintaining the notion of PA's superiority, which our media and writers in particular blew out of proportion. You should seriously take a look at some of our fellow members in the WoT forum like Pashtun and Anwar2, they accuse the PA of trying to strangle the nation from the start and the WoT is just another ‘proof’ for them. Oh yes, Pakistan is a very polarized society and large segments of this nation and its media love nothing more than bashing the PA. These tendencies are MUCH more checked in India, in India its excessive nationalistic bias is what has turned the ‘independent media’ into a bit of a joke.

Kasrkin,

The comparison is a bit erronous. The Indian media in general critisises the IA's operations in Kashmir as being to soft in handling the terrorists and the non-stop stories of how holed up militants manage to break a cordon and flee. Also, the media is unabashedly critical of the IS in its failures to collect intelligence about terrorist attacks in the valley itself inspite of a huge presence. While doing this, the Indian media always tries to downplay the local support and sympathy (possibly as a PR stunt or a non-documented Govt. stand).

Contrasting this is the Pakistani media's criticism of the PA in its WoT in FATA, Swat and NWFP. The PA get's the boot from the media for its alleged western brinkmanship and for fighting and killing its own kith and kin. Quite differential. Add to this, there have been instances too, where the Media has rushed to the PA's support in face of some troops surrender to the militants, stating that its basically the failure of the GoP because everytime the PA tightened the noose on the Talibs, the GoP extended a ceasefire carrot and allowed the militants to regroup and attack the PA at a different time and place.

Different perspective ofcourse.

Fatman17,
Thank you Sir for the candid posts.

 

[fatman17]

the other basic difference between the two armies is of course the fact that the pak army has "ruled" the country for long periods ~32 years. so the major "criticism" for the pak army also stems from this fact and thus the "overbearing" tag. whereas across the border this is not the case!

 

[RedBaron]

...
Most Pakistanis do believe that the politicians let Pakistan down, and retired generals have never said that the PA could not have taken on the IA or that what Nawaz Sharif did was right. They just gave different perspectives while maintaining the notion of PA's superiority, which our media and writers in particular blew out of proportion.
...

Gen Ali Kuli Khan, ex-CGS PA, in his rejoinder to Musharraf's Line of Fire was pretty scathing in his comments on Kargil, I don't see any notion of PA superiority or blame for Sharif in his comments. He blames Musharraf for the "debacle". Extract and link follow:

In Chapter 11 of this rather controversial book the author decides to step into the biggest minefield when he brazenly refers to the Kargil Operations as "considered purely, in military terms, the Kargil Operations were a landmark in the history of Pakistan Army". I am totally amazed at such ostrich-like behaviour when the whole world considers Kargil to be the worst debacle in Pakistan's history and where countless innocent young lives were lost for nothing. Absolutely nothing!

In this book, a totally futile debate is started by making allegations against the political leadership. Allegations can only be made against others when one's own work is above par and not when there are gaping holes in it. I regret to say that the conception and planning at the highest level had been poor; in fact so poor that the only word which can adequately describe it is unprofessional. We all know that the main duty of the high command is to ensure that with their meticulous planning they create conditions whereby their junior combatants can fight easy. This was certainly not done at Kargil.

It is also fairly obvious that the Kargil Operations were not conceived in its totality, with the result that apart from bringing ignominy to Pakistan it also caused unnecessary misery to a lot of innocent people. The account of General Musharraf regarding Kargil is inconsistent and has raised more questions than it has answered! We must have a full blown independent inquiry into the Kargil debacle.

General Ali Kuli Khan Accuses Musharraf

 

[fatman17]

Operational Art and Tactical Doctrine
The Indian Army has evolved from a generally static defensive doctrine to that of "offensive-defence", requiring highly flexible mobility (the Pakistani equivalent is the "Riposte"). With regards to internal security duties, the army conducts agressive patrolling as well as ambushes and cordon and search operations. However, there is no policy of "hot persuit" (that of tracking and striking militants in their training and supply camps in Pakistan administered Kashmir). The restraint is politically imposed on advice that such action would drastically increase tension and lead to Pakistan taking immediate retaliatory action that would almost certainly lead to widening conflict that in turn could escalate to nuclear release.

The proposed new army doctrine of "cold start" described at the 2004 Army Commanders Conference, but is yet to be implemented as it requires considerable re-organisation of forces and agreement by the air force to prioritise the air-land battle rather than concentrate on interdiction. It aims to enable the formation of eight "integrated battle groups" with the aim of conducting swift advances into Pakistan on multiple fronts. Excercises have been carried out to test the doctrine, and implementation planning continues. There has been some emphasis on training for operations in an Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) environment, and the Army Commanders conference in mid-April 2006 included extensive discussions on the "military preparedness to fight in environments of NBC warfare" and the progress which scientists have made so far to provide protective technologies. The conference in 2007 concentrated on the overall security situation and operational readiness.

 

[Vinod2070]

May I request to not make it an IA Vs. PA thread?

Lets just focus on IA. It's good points and bad.

 

[RedBaron]

May I request to not make it an IA Vs. PA thread?

Lets just focus on IA. It's good points and bad.

WILCO. Don't mean to derail Fatman-sir's endeavor.

 

[fatman17]

Training
Training doctrine is developed at HQ Army Training Command (ARTRAC), which answers to the Deputy CoAS (training and co-ordination).

Officers are initially trained at the National Defence Academy (NDA), Pune (Maharashtra) for a three year bachelor's degree course, the Indian Military Academy (IMA), Dehra Dun (Uttaranchal), and the Officer Training Academy (OTA), Chennai (Tamil Nadu). the OTA normally produces short-service commission officers. Special-to-arms (or services) training follows.

Selected middle level officers undergo additional training at the Staff College, Wellington (at the junction of Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Karnathaka states) and senior officers are selected for courses at the Army War College, Mhow (Madhya Pradesh), and later at the National Defence College, New Delhi. An increasing number of officers attend overseas staff and advanced courses at staff and war colleges in the UK, US and elsewhere and senior officers at establishments such as the Royal College of Defence Studies (UK). The US allots finance under its International Military and Education Training Programmes for attendence on US courses of instruction.

Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO) training is conducted at the Junior Leaders Wing, Belgaum and the Junior Leaders Academies at Bareilly and Ramgarh. The Infantry School is at Mhow, The Artillery School and Centre are at Deolali (Maharashtra) and the armour equivalents are at Ahmadnagar (Maharashtra), where mechanised infantry basic and advanced courses are also conducted. Most armour and artillery training takes place at the Mahajan ranges in Rajasthan. This area is also the location of major military excercises, particularly at dicision level and above.

Specialised training for High-Altitude warfare and counter-insurgency operations is conducted by the High-Altitude Warfare School (HAWS), Gulmarg (Indian administered Kashmir) and the counter insurgency and jungle warfare school (CIJWS), at Virangte (Mizoram). Foreign troops are also trained at the CIJWS. Army para-commandos train at Belguam, 80 Km from Goa.

Three Corps Counter Insurgency Pre-induction Training Battle Schools have been established at Kheru, Saroi and Bhaira for unirs moving into Northern Command and at Thakurbari for units moving into Assam and Meghalaya.