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Why Armies Do Not Trust Air Forces

Manticore

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April 5, 2013: The Indian Defense Ministry turned down an army protest of the air force refusal to give up control of its AH-64 Apache helicopter gunships. An earlier decision gave the army control of helicopters, but the air force insisted that the AH-64s were different and were crucial for certain air combat missions (attacking air defense radars and other helicopters). The army generals were furious and demanded that the government set the air force straight. The army was particularly anxious to get the 22 Indian AH-64s as soon as possible, as these are generally recognized as the best gunships currently in service anywhere and are very rarely used for attacks on anti-aircraft defenses or other helicopters. The army generals probably won’t let this decision alone because losing control of the AH-64s puts soldiers in combat at greater risk.

Last October the Indian Army thought it had won a major victory over the Air Force, when the government agreed to transfer most attack helicopters from the air force to the army. That was supposed to mean the army gets control of over 270 armed helicopters (22 AH-64s, 179 light combat models, and 76 armed Indian made transports). The air force would continue to operate a dozen or so elderly Mi-25 and Mi-35 helicopter gunships, until they retire by the end of the decade. These are export versions of the Russian Mi-24. The air force was not happy about this and spent a lot of time and effort to change minds at the Defense Ministry about who would control the AH-64s. Inside the air force there is unhappiness about this army effort to create its own “air force” and determination to halt this sort of thing.

The army has long complained that air force control of the armed helicopters, which were designed to support army operations, are sometimes difficult to get in a timely manner. Another aspect of this deal is a new agreement by the air force to station some transport helicopters at army bases in Kashmir, so that there will not be a delay when transport is needed for an emergency.

This sort of problem between the army and air force is not unique to India and is actually quite common. It all started back in the 1920s, a decade after aircraft became a major military asset. For example, at the start of World War I (1914-18), the British Royal Navy had more aircraft than the Royal Flying Corps (which belonged to the army). But at the end of World War I, it was decided to put all aircraft under the control of the new Royal Air Force (the former Royal Flying Corps). The navy was not happy with this and just before World War II broke out, the admirals got back control of their aircraft, at least the ones that operated from ships (especially aircraft carriers).

The British army expanded its Army Air Corps during World War II, to gain control over artillery spotter aircraft, gliders (for parachute divisions), and a few other transports for supporting commando operations. After World War II the Army Air Corps mainly controlled the growing fleet of transport and attack helicopters. The Indian Air Force has always refused to allow the Indian Army to do the same thing after modern India was created in 1947.

Air forces tend to keep at it. British Royal Air Force generals still demand control of everything that flies, believing that this is more efficient. The army and navy, not to mention the experience of many other nations, say otherwise. At the very least the army needs to control its helicopters and some small transports. In Russia the army always controlled ground attack aircraft, as well as some fighters. In the United States the Marine Corps controlled its own fighters, light bombers, and helicopters. It made a difference, especially to the marines on the ground, that the marine aircraft were being flown by marines.

Another problem with a unified air force is that it becomes, quite naturally, air force centric. This is understandable and the air force proceeds to develop strategies, and tactics, that emphasize looking at military matters from an air force viewpoint. Before World War II this led to the doctrine of strategic bombardment. This was supposed to be a decisive weapon but it wasn't. When nuclear weapons came along the air force believed that it finally had a way to make strategic bombardment decisive. But it didn't, as ballistic missiles (another form of artillery) became the key delivery system for nukes. Nuclear weapons were so destructive that they became more of a threat than a weapon that you could use (and they have not been used again, since the first two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan in 1945). The fact of the matter is that wars are still ultimately won by the ground forces. As the army likes to point out, the ultimate air superiority weapon is your infantry occupying the enemy air bases. Everyone else (the navy and air force) is there to support the infantry in actually winning the war.

Leadership: Why Armies Do Not Trust Air Forces
 
Indian army has complained that IAF does not understand the meaning of close air support.
 
Army has furiously ordered 11 ah-64e for itself from what i hear,coz its not getting the 22 ah-64s.Well a small but ultimately meaningless victory for IAF.Both army and navy now have full scale aviation wings.
 
Army has furiously ordered 11 ah-64e for itself from what i hear,coz its not getting the 22 ah-64s.Well a small but ultimately meaningless victory for IAF.Both army and navy now have full scale aviation wings.

You are saying this is over and above the 24 IAF is getting?
 
Yes 22 for IAF and now due to IAF refusal i heard from a friend in the army that army wants 11 ah-64e for itself.Talks with MOD ongoing i think.
 
Unbelievable,what is IAF want to do with the AH-64????? Should give them to army, the reason is also funny----Army has not logistics experience, in history a part of air force directely become navy in China, IAF should give entire helicopter parts to army including people
 
One the reasons a German aircraft carrier never materialized during world war II was Herman Goering was not ready to release his trained pilots and aircraft to the Kriegsmarine
 
Empire building.

This comes naturally to us, we want to hold on to everything little realizing that by giving one is actually increasing what he has.
 
OK, that is interesting. It will be hilarious to see how IAF will get the check mate from IA..will wait:)
 
the problem of Air Force controlling Army asset will most definitely be seen when you try to use them in the field. To begin with, you will need a AFO (Airforce Forward Observer) to stuck inside your platoon and call them every time you want them, trust me, over a month of combat or so, you wanted to kill your unit AFO a lot more than your enemy........(At least this is how I feel)

Those peep are pilot, they train as a pilot and they know nothing about ground warfare, as if you pull a pilot out of an A-10 and drag him to your unit and expect him to understand what the heck you are doing.

Then there are different flight envelopment. ROEs have to follow between Air Force and Army. This target is denied because they are too close to civilian population, this target is no good because there are friendly around. When you come up with a legit target finally, that is almost always the time your AFO tell you their bird is out of Missile or Fuel or both and have to RTB. More than once I was just thinking to my self, shiite man I can see those F-16 circling around us, JUST DROP THE GOD DAMN BOMB.....

If this did not give you the kicks, you almost always have to babysit your AFO. He most likely think he (or she) is a god when you give him/her a M-4 and he just go rampaging about doing stuff Rambo style. Many time you tell him/her that "You are not in a plane anymore"........

Go figure....
 
the problem of Air Force controlling Army asset will most definitely be seen when you try to use them in the field. To begin with, you will need a AFO (Airforce Forward Observer) to stuck inside your platoon and call them every time you want them, trust me, over a month of combat or so, you wanted to kill your unit AFO a lot more than your enemy........(At least this is how I feel)

Those peep are pilot, they train as a pilot and they know nothing about ground warfare, as if you pull a pilot out of an A-10 and drag him to your unit and expect him to understand what the heck you are doing.

Then there are different flight envelopment. ROEs have to follow between Air Force and Army. This target is denied because they are too close to civilian population, this target is no good because there are friendly around. When you come up with a legit target finally, that is almost always the time your AFO tell you their bird is out of Missile or Fuel or both and have to RTB. More than once I was just thinking to my self, shiite man I can see those F-16 circling around us, JUST DROP THE GOD DAMN BOMB.....

If this did not give you the kicks, you almost always have to babysit your AFO. He most likely think he (or she) is a god when you give him/her a M-4 and he just go rampaging about doing stuff Rambo style. Many time you tell him/her that "You are not in a plane anymore"........

Go figure....

That doesn't sound too bad ! Collateral damage has far graver implications than the mere 2 word term bellies !
 
That doesn't sound too bad ! Collateral damage has far graver implications than the mere 2 word term bellies !

you say this now but when you are under fire in 3 sides with small arms and RPG and mortar start raining down on you, you want to use whatever you got to get them out of there, and you would not really care about Collateral damage. The phase "It's better you then me" start to ring very true...........
 
Air forces should only be given the task of:

Interdiction.
Achieving air superiority over the battle zone.
Combat air patrols (CAP)
Air defence.

The task of CAS (Close air support) must be given to the army for better coordination, command and control, and task oriented employment. Time and space is vital for success as is air space management over the battle zone where army drones, artillery, air observation assets etc operating in the air space above, form a veritable mix of hazards for fighter aircraft.

It is unexceptionable that the air forces are continuing to insist on providing air support to integrated combat groups with attack choppers like the AH-64. This is best left to the army for better command and control and effective utilization of such assets.
 
Air forces should only be given the task of:

Interdiction.
Achieving air superiority over the battle zone.
Combat air patrols (CAP)
Air defence.

The task of CAS (Close air support) must be given to the army for better coordination, command and control, and task oriented employment. Time and space is vital for success as is air space management over the battle zone where army drones, artillery, air observation assets etc operating in the air space above, form a veritable mix of hazards for fighter aircraft.

It is unexceptionable that the air forces are continuing to insist on providing air support to integrated combat groups with attack choppers like the AH-64. This is best left to the army for better command and control and effective utilization of such assets.

IAF despises India army, one of IAF had said that it will cost 40 years for army to learn how to operate these babies
 
Air forces should only be given the task of:

Interdiction.
Achieving air superiority over the battle zone.
Combat air patrols (CAP)
Air defence.

The task of CAS (Close air support) must be given to the army for better coordination, command and control, and task oriented employment. Time and space is vital for success as is air space management over the battle zone where army drones, artillery, air observation assets etc operating in the air space above, form a veritable mix of hazards for fighter aircraft.

It is unexceptionable that the air forces are continuing to insist on providing air support to integrated combat groups with attack choppers like the AH-64. This is best left to the army for better command and control and effective utilization of such assets.

Strictly speaking, air force should only deal with anything that fly.

anything that cannot fly should be left for us to destroy them.

Their C2 structure is totally different, you cannot literally run ground ops with Air Asset. If I am a general or some sort, I will even make attacker like A-10 under army.
 

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