Who is India’s real ally?

[JohnyD]

Pakistan can be

Really??

 

[Umair Nawaz]

hah; Mr Umair Nawaz; dont read much into a russian visit thread; try to understand what I said. you credit pakistan more than what it needs vis-a-vis India. As far as you pointing out arrogance;I think otherwise, pakistan is not a lynch pin around which any of India's future developmental paths depend on. As far as economy is concerned, plz do you research. True after 92 our economy could breath easier, but the reason we have a domestic industry is the because of protectionism till 92; or else we would be in the same situation as pakistan is now in. Old economy fundamentals and small business structure in India has turned out exactly as planned by five year commissions since the inception of our republic.

Your reply is detached from what I said. Before lecturing me, try understanding the fundamentals of what is wrong with your economy. Though it is true that our economy was liberalised after 1992, still we had bigger purchasing parity, a bigger gdp and still thrice the firepower in our arsenal before 92 when compared to pakistan. As far as the sanctions are concerned, do not forget that, India also got sanctioned, but our economy is adaptable and self sustaining in nature with a huge internal consumption rate; hence even with sanctions we grew at a rapid rate forcing the world to take notice and hence cooperate.Pakistan's has never been seen as an existential threat for survival of India, but is restricted to significant nuisance value. Our prerogative is to nullify that niggling itch; as far as friendship is concerned, its existence doesn't shape the future of India. If we do end up having friendly relations, it will be a win win situation; if not ending hostilities will serve our purpose pretty well too.

We have potential to develop better relations with countries that are looking up for help and cooperation without holding years of grudge as in case of Pakistan. In this age, distances have been reduced, and nations which don't share anything common in cultural ties and are separated by thousands of miles have inculcated good relations with India.

Our priorities are set right, our national policies in both security and foreign affairs paradigm have been "India first, always". We haven't allowed foreign mercenaries to have safe havens, neither have we been soldier for hire for super powers, our sovereignty is not overrun by policymakers sitting in pentagon, and neither have our markets been monopolised by Foreign multinationals. Our; democratic setup, judiciary, civil services and military apparatus have never been at loggerheads and never has been our constitution been thrown in trash by some military junta. Our system may under perform at times, but we do have a system. Never can a General dream that he will take over the parliament in his wildest dream which seems to be acceptable norm in pakistan throughout its history.

LOL overall i agree with ur post but something i wanna tell

India gave Pakistan MFN status in 1996 just 4-5 years after inviting the foreign investment in 91 or 92 then just last year i think India country officially requested Pakistan to give india MFN n it was then accepted by Pakistan. Now Pakistan n its military had atlast learnt from their mistakes in the Past actually we were fools to have fought each other when our real enemy is someone else who had actually Divide our Union together, before them there was no hate no body used to think that way we used to b humble with each other n used to fight together against the invaders like Taimur, Babur n then British if u remember Mangal Pandey, Syed Ahmed Shaheed in 1830s, 1857 war 4 liberation of Hindustan, then in 1913 Tahreek-e-Reshmi Rumal.
Pakistan army has realized this, afterall it was she who used to b in the line of fire in Battlefields thats what yr Foreign Minister in india after the tour of our country said n Mani Shankar Arya said in ''Capital Talk'' its a political talk show in this winter in Islamabad(i suggest u all to watch that full show its in utube type there name of show along with his name) then your country now wants us to give the transit routes upto central Asia where all the resources r available n let me remind u that cheapest way of trade is through land. We can save our expanses to help 4 the prosperity of people of our countries more. So Pakistan is n was part of India's development plans 4 now and future. This is because and depends on the Goals of India as a country. Try to understand that what India wants from this first quarter of 21st century (i know u will b thinking i being a outsider telling u what yr country wants) but plz try to understand with a cool mind/ open mind that every country no matter who they r they learn through diplomatic sources that what is going on in a particular country. That is same way we learn n India learns about whats going on now a days in Pakistan, India wants to become a financial Hub in the World or atleast in Asia for the time being n for a long enough future, so now where Pakistan fits?
Its the location of Pakistan who fits in this plan. Pakistan is one of the few countries in the World which r situated in a very strategic important Location for regional countries specially when we talk abt trade n its routes, look at China they r getting full use of our location now a days for their whole western front's. I was reading a post from a Chinese member that from Beijing/shanghai to western china the journey costs more n same goes 4 trade thats why u c the western China who doesnt share who doesnt share sea ports r much less developed and the containers with trade goods when they reach from shanghai to western states of China they become expensive bcoz then the transport expenses n taxes taken in the roads like from Toll Plazas plays a role in making Goods cost much higher for the local market n local dealers to purchase n sell in the profit to Public hence the area doesnt really grow like the rest of the country. Since 2007 their western states have become economic hub in CA in regional trade because Gwadar port was launched at Arabian Sea in southwestern Pakistan in 2007 n immediately China started to use most of it now those goods r costing much less then those which comes from Shanghai or Beijing n it gives a much needed boost to the pace of their economy bcoz Pakistan is not very big country in Land mass compared to the regional countries surrounding Pakistan so transport expenses n time interval r very less to reach in market n go back and now a days China's 90% trade happens through Pakistan their oil from GCC countries, their import/export happens through here with entire Africa, Western Europe, ME, South Asian Countries n some of the South East Asian Countries who dont share border with them and r in western side of the region.
Now as far as i know these r the same problems that india faces in northern states who dont have sea ports that could be one of the reason y they r not much developed just like states surrounding Dehli. If we go in East the states like Nagalands, Assam n the disputed state b/w china n india now that could be same role that Bangladesh may play in that region for India to develop these states much cheaply n in rapid pace because main port lies in Kolkata in north east n they have to bye pass through entire western and Northern Bangladesh to reach there. The problem of having a big country with a big population is this that u struggle to keep the every state running with the same pace of growth as the rest of the nation because if we dont! then those particular places dont grow economically well, the living standard doesnt improve n people of those states some how feel ignored n underrated which leads the misunderstandings to the a time comes they become terrorist or anti state elements(Same as in Baluchistan province of Pakistan) that is the reason why we see Red corridor in india and around 600 separatist movements in all over the country.If u notice most of them r less or underdeveloped. All of them like MOISTS, NEXELS, Kashmiri Freedom Fighters/Movement etc are from such states.
Now how abt western India, there Pakistan is most most important Country to india then Bangladesh in the East n For China to Pakistan. Because Pakistan covers entire Land in the west of India and India as a whole wants to develop and for that it requires resources, a lot of them for their Big population n the resources like Gas, Gold, Oil which comes from ME n CARs n most those states dont share sea ports so then Pakistan comes in this Plan it can give u all the required routs upto CARs yr problem is to just pass through Pakistan then from there u can go anywhere, into Iran, Afghanistan, or from using Karakarom Highway to China n from there straight into CARs its yr choice what route u wanna follow/select. There is railway track from Pakistan-Iran-Turkey n then it leads to Eastern European States like Bulgaria,Albania,Serbia,Romania n once in Europe u can do trade with everyone in EU through this route, Pakistan n Turkey already use this route 4 trade with each other n Turkey through this trades with Far East (through Gwader n Karachi Sea Ports) n by Karakoram Highway with China. Yes india may have big ports which opens towards indian ocean but sea routes r expensive n it takes a long long time for ships to go n return, as compared to a simple Cargo train which is much less expensive. In addition Indian states which r less developed (generally) in the Northern Front can get boost through the region trade system like in east with Bangladesh, Western China with Pakistan n Iran. Yes abt the Developing Chahbahar port! but still from Chahbahar the Cargo will be carried by ships and from Dubai to Mumbai who is the main operational port in west right now, cargo ships take a week to complete a one way trip bcoz cargo ships with fully loaded take more time to reach just like trucks and trains. From Chahbahar it will take even longer to reach Mumbai and from there to say states like Punjab, Haryana, Kashmir, Southern India or in east. The same goods will take much time to reach and then the longer transport issues + Expenses. This will make prices of these imported items very high and the common man will not b able to purchase. So for the time being dealers will try to sell them anyways by a low or loss in the profit.This will result in the losses in economy of the state and then will influence the overall economic of the country if that state is economical Hub locally. Now to avoid that region trades r very important the items from Gwader or Karachi Port can reach in Kashmir,Punjab,Rajastan n Gujarat state much quicker and in less expenses as well from there they can go into Haryana,Lucknow, Dehli, Kanpur, Agra n so on.... by this way common people of the countries will gain more and Pakistan will get transit fees and taxes through the toll plazas (if by Road) which will give a much needed boost to development of Pakistan.Through the same way Pakistan can trade with India, Bhutan Nepal, Southern China, Bangladesh, Myanmar n other far eastern countries that costs us more from sea n air its same way the EU do b/w their local countries.
India can also invest in Pakistan and Pakistan is also a market of alteast 180 million its the second biggest market after India in the region specially for those companies who r struggling in india as it already has economic giants locally they can invest in Pakistan n make profits easily as there is not much competition b/w companies and for those who r already economic Giant companies they can also expand their business in here also.
Thats how things work give and take. Ours cast is particular because we share a common history in which we both equally can be proud off n more then that, we r neighbours n we will b like that we r naturally connected to one n other.
Now if that to happen, just ending of hostilities wont do the job because the common people will always hold grudges against each other in their hearts n they will feel that our country is being invaded economically by india, So that is why we in Pakistan need something to tell to our people as well and that i see will come in guaranty of the prosperity of people in Kashmir valley as its not an issue for a piece of land anymore, and other Muslims in rest of India. Actually as the time is progressing people in general r getting sick n tired of hating each other which leads to terrorism in our country as times have changed World has became a Global Village now its the time of internet, education same way the new generations of Kashmir have changed as they have started to go into schools n universities. Pakistan is not anymore their priority. Lets not judge by the people of both sides in this forum they dont fully represent their entire Nations n most of them either from Pakistan or India join this for different reasons things n reasons.Things in Pakistan atleast have started to change overall in Pakistan those who r fighting they r basically fighting against Pakistan itself (because we have given Nato the transit routes n allowed them to do Drones) and some r fighting western powers in Afghanistan.All that is for the time being as long as they r here in the region, once they r gone the development in the tribal regions, the development of Schools, Hospitals n infrastructure is enough to guaranty their positive future. Its same way what India is doing in Afghanistan investing in Education, Infrastructure and in economy.
We must have to come in the friendly relations once 4 all for regional trade to really happen. There is a common saying that there is no shortcut of success. The success comes from its proper way now its upto us that how much we want to follow that. Yes we couldnt develop our local industry n give it time to flourish just like u had given 4 more then 40 years, thats bcoz we were not lucky enough to have a Leader after our Independence ours was Dead within a year but yrs survived long enough to set yr basics in the right track Yours Ghandi, Nehru, Molanna Azad were enough to guaranty a prosperous future of yr country economically n socially. The Speech of Ghandhi is coming in my mind in which he said that throw out yr all those things which r British made, we will make them ourselves for a nation whose Founding Father says this n give them inspiration its enough 4 them to oblige n then we had seen that nationed followed that n thrown their radios, furniture n other stuff out of their houses because he knew that necessity is the mother of invention once the create the hunger in the hearts of his people they will strive n struggle to satisfy their urges n then the local industry was made n theu gave it enough time to flourish to become powerful enough to sustain the foreign investment in 1992. We on the other hand did not develop our local industry n relied on foreign investment more n it came in abundance was enough to kept us going economically do u know that other countries like south korea's economic model was set on Pakistan's economic model of 1960s n now in the same model they r today a developed nation. We in here were not so lucky enough to b constant on that because of the same reason u had mentioned bye the constant change in politics n unstable political system, But now i can assure u that now we have learnt havnt u noticed that this gov even with the most corrupt one ever in our history has still completed its term of four years n in next years we r going into elections next year that means we have started to learn to b patient n history of the world says that this is the first step of the nations who had really became successful.
So now request u n yr country men that b patient with us n give us a little time as the nations after taking fundamental steps need time to change. Im posting a new thread of how Pakistan n india can help eachother in Economic n trade fields in India and Central Asia there we can further disscuss

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Im posting a new thread of how Pakistan n india can help eachother in Economic n trade fields in India and Central Asia there we can further disscuss

 

[EzioAltaïr]

India will have to fix it's policies if it wants "friends".

And I guess you are an expert on foreign policy? We have enough friends.

At the moment, they've got problems with pretty much every single friggin' neighbor they have.

Pakistan, Bangladesh, and China, that's it. Myanmar is ok, Bhutan is ok, Nepal is ok, and we have saved Maldivian arses against the PLOTE.

It can't arm-twist larger neighbors like Pakistan and China, so it tries other measures. For example, it gets all whiny and uppity whenever Pakistan makes arms purchases from abroad, even minor ones like MAR-1 SEAD(Supression of Enemy Air Defences) missiles from Brazil, because it would "upset the regional balance of power". And at the same time, it imports more weapons than any other country in the world. With China, India tries to become a tool for the west

Ummm.... So?

Smaller neighbors, it can just coerce. Like Nepal, for example, where India fueled an insurgency, while forcing the government to buy sub-standard Indian small-arms. It led to a laughable situation where those Indian rifles would overheat during combat, and half the forces would fight while the other half would have to wait for the guns to cool down! With Bangladesh, they've killed over a thousand people in the border region in the past few years, just rampant disregard for human life.

Maoists aren't made by India, how good is your knowledge of history?

INSAS rifles? The committee has proved it beyond doubt, that it was the poor training of Nepali soldiers, who tried to use an Assault Rifle as an LMG, something only an AK can do.

In Sri Lanka, they provided funding and support to the Tamil Tigers for decades, they landed their forces as a "show of force", until the Sri Lankans kicked them out.

We made the LTTE to teach Sri Lanka that it cannot get away with supporting Pakistan. We destroyed all the rebel groups except LTTE, and came close to destroying them too, but Sri Lanka requested us to leave, and so we did. And look. It took 'em 20 years to achieve peace, which would have come much sooner if they had accepted our help.

Even inside India, they treat their own people worse than the European colonizing nations did, treating "untouchables" worse than civilized nations treat animals.

....

This is essentially the "Chanakya doctrine", this philosophy of Chanakya that says that you should make friends with your neighbor's neighbor, and then crush your immediate neighbor with his help. And the wheel symbol in the centre of the Indian flag is the symbol of Chanakya, Indians feature it right on their flag to show how highly they regard his doctrine of deceit and lies.

You know, you are really showing how little knowledge you have.

All of these are undeniable facts, even if Indians find it hard to face them. If India really wants meaningful relationships with other nations, this fundamental thing would need to change. When Pakistanis go to China, even the average layman knows that Pakistanis are considered "a friend". Same for other countries like Turkey and Saudia Arabia, with which Pakistan has had good links for decades. India should stop backstabbing if it wants allies.

Sorry, we don't need lectures from the guys who couldn't even secure support from their best friends when their army was getting hammered in India.

With friends like these, who needs an enemy?

 

[Abhishek_]

it is a rather odd question: does it mean there are unreal allies?
we have some countries with which our interests align on some issues, GOI has no qualms operating as allies with such nations.
that includes working with US on anti-terrorism, and working with china, brazil on global warming issues.

the only real ally of India is herself, nobody else is a permanent ally.

 

[breeze]

the only real ally of India is herself, nobody else is a permanent ally.

Not even close. In fact, India itself is actually its own worst enemy. The hundred million Muslim population are just waiting to overthrow the oppressive regime in New Delhi and the dozens of armed separatist groups spreading terror all over the countryside is just another sign of India's short comings.

The only way for India to be accepted in the subcontinent region is to be broken up into tiny pieces where each little piece can be "adopted" by a neighboring country.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Not even close. In fact, India itself is actually its own worst enemy. The hundred million Muslim population are just waiting to overthrow the oppressive regime in New Delhi and the dozens of armed separatist groups spreading terror all over the countryside is just another sign of India's short comings.

The only way for India to be accepted in the subcontinent region is to be broken up into tiny pieces where each little piece can be "adopted" by a neighboring country.

I salute your genius sir, may all the people in the world be like you.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Look no further than from the inside of India.

Remember, India have 0 allies and is only seen as a tool big powers can manipulate, also a land of slave labor and endless supply of women for the Caucasian and Muslim men.

Don't ask me if I had my share of Indian woman. I find them to be the very least desirable but I know many Muslims with Indian wives and girlfriends.

Sure sure.

If Islamic nations are asslickers, then India is the crapeater. India also ate Muslim crap for a 1000 years, now you eat Caucasian crap.

*Sigh* The thousand year myth, the most popular urban legend among PDFers.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Look no further than from the inside of India.

Remember, India have 0 allies and is only seen as a tool big powers can manipulate, also a land of slave labor and endless supply of women for the Caucasian and Muslim men.

Don't ask me if I had my share of Indian woman. I find them to be the very least desirable but I know many Muslims with Indian wives and girlfriends.

Members like these drag down the quality of discussion on this forum . They are not here to discuss but to take out their real world frustrations out here by trolling on Indians , the people they hate because out there in the real world they have no way of taking out their frustrations and have no option but to suffer in silence .

Perhaps the mods should make a separate thread for these kinds where they can vent out their frustrations , sob as much they want and perhaps feel better .

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Members like these drag down the quality of discussion on this forum . They are not here to discuss but to take out their real world frustrations out here by trolling on Indians , the people they hate because out there in the real world they have no way of taking out their frustrations and have no option but to suffer in silence .

Perhaps the mods should make a separate thread for these kinds where they can vent out their frustrations , sob as much they want and perhaps feel better .

That's a very good idea. I think the mods should really do that. Any post like that one from breeze, whether anti-India, anti-Pakistan, or anti-China, all be moved to one particular forum. They should keep a collection of these posts.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Sure sure.



*Sigh* The thousand year myth, the most popular urban legend among PDFers.

That's what their text books have taught them since grade 1 .Don't blame them

 

[Paan Singh]

If Islamic nations are asslickers, then India is the crapeater. India also ate Muslim crap for a 1000 years, now you eat Caucasian crap.

it was million years,why not increase more zeros?

Muslims in india too ate same crap if we did so

 

[EzioAltaïr]

That's what their text books have taught them since grade 1 .Don't blame them

Oh but I do blame them. A guy can only be fooled if he chooses to be. It's not like they are using Golden Shining Orbs to control their minds right? They are still free to learn the truth. But they choose to believe that myth.

 

[Seaman]

Russia..defence partner
japan...china,s new enemy
thiland...as always
france...defence partner
uk...as always
brazil..as always
canada...as always
australia..as always
israil...enemy of muslim
Usa...war againt terror
south korea..enemy of north korea

 

[ghameed]

Russia..defence partner
japan...china,s new enemy
thiland...as always
france...defence partner
uk...as always
brazil..as always
canada...as always
australia..as always
israil...enemy of muslim
Usa...war againt terror
south korea..enemy of north korea

All of them are strong economic partners too....you can add Germany ( and the EU by extrapolation ) and China to the list as well ( considering trade between these countries are set to increase ten -fold over the next 5 years).

My thoughts on the "ally" question : an "economic alliance " for me is more important than a "strategic alliance" or a "defence alliance", because in the end a weak economy is a weak "power".