When will Pakistan become a 1st world country?

[Indus Pakistan]

, Turkey doesn't tick most of the LGBT rights boxes.

Because as I explained it is not 1st world yet but is hurtling in that direction. I often talk with Turks. PDF Turks give you only one perspective as they are more conservative. The more liberal Turks haunt Western forums and I hear their views. Their numbers are increasing year on year. Turkey is not yet 1st world but she is headed in that direction and is furthest along that path then any other Muslim country as I said before.

Turkey - Gays under Islamists Erdogan.

Gay parade Turkey

Don't even compare Turkey LGBT and Pakistan please despite what ticks you see on paper. Let see if this would happen in Lahore and what would happen.

 

[TankMan]

If you read my previous posts I took care to avoid the term 'Western liberal'. That is so because it is now redundant and also is factually incorrect. I prefer the 1st world. Most people call it 'Western liberal' because West was the first to reach 1st world and therefore became typecast. The fact is same phenomenon can be seen in any country of any ethnic group in any part of the world that is 1st world. That is why I mentioned Hong Kong, Tokyo, Seoul,London, New York, Paris, Moscow, Rio de Janerio beating to the same rhythm.

Tokyo nightlife

Gay bar

Hong Kong

London

What is the differance? The almond eyes?

I can find pictures like this from Pakistan, only without homosexuality or alcohol. (and probably with too, if i really looked)

Lahore

Kinnaird College^

Look, smiles and dances. Does this mean everything is great in Pakistan?

Smiley faces and dancing youth means nothing. And a lot of the time in the West, they drink and party to forget their problems. You can't possibly believe everything is great just because they have parties. Please read my other arguments, such as the fact that the West was developed before accepting gay rights.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The West has its own problems as well,

No the West does not. It is 1st world problems. The Japanese, the South Koreans etc face them as much as people in Germany or America. Yes, there are slightly differant degrees of the problems but all said they suffer from the same issues.

 

[Tiger Genie]

how is 1st word defined?

rich?
happy?
tolerant?
representative power?

 

[Mamluk]

Because as I explained it is not 1st world yet but is hurtling in that direction. I often talk with Turks. PDF Turks give you only one perspective as they are more conservative. The more liberal Turks haunt Western forums and I hear their views. Their numbers are increasing year on year. Turkey is not yet 1st world but she is headed in that direction and is furthest along that path then any other Muslim country as I said before.

Turkey - Gays under Islamists Erdogan.

Gay parade Turkey

Don't even compare Turkey LGBT and Pakistan please despite what ticks you see on paper. Let see if this would happen in Lahore and what would happen.

That should not be a goal in itself - it is just a side effect of wealth.

Wealthier societies tend to be more tolerant (because happier people are less pissed overall) and so are more accepting of non-mainstream people.

They are degenerates nonetheless.

 

[Finer]

It took USA more than hundred years to get where they are at now. Luckily, Pakistan started off the good start comparatively, stalled in the middle of the process, and now resuming from where it has left off.

Expect to see new Pakistan within 2050. Real change will come slow, but it will be worth it considering that real change that come with slow process will be in similar pace of process to collapse either. It depends on the foundation.

how is 1st word defined?

rich?
happy?
tolerant?
representative power?

Toilet?

 

[Kabira]

I can find pictures like this from Pakistan, only without homosexuality or alcohol. (and probably with too, if i really looked)
View attachment 350425
Lahore

View attachment 350426

View attachment 350427
Kinnaird College^

Look, smiles and dances. Does this mean everything is great in Pakistan?

Smiley faces and dancing youth means nothing. And a lot of the time in the West, they drink and party to forget their problems. You can't possibly believe everything is great just because they have parties. Please read my other arguments, such as the fact that the West was developed before accepting gay rights.

Edward Maya concert in Peshawar. If you notice girls and boy section is still separate in Peshawar and Lahore and we are talking about middle to upper class tabka here. Pakistan is long way off from Turkey kind of liberalism.

You can also find underground parties western style but they are reserved for elite.

 

[LegitimateIdiot]

It would need about three generations refreshing to reach 1st world. To put it bluntly it would need average Pakistani to think like a Japanese, Chinese, German, British, Canadian etc.

When a average Pakistani can live with homosexuality, gender equality, religious freedom, sexual freedom then Pakistan will have arrived at the 1st world station. We have to keep in mind these are symptomatic of being first world and not related to being Western, American etc. For example Chinese share more values with British then with Pakistani's. Ditto Japanese.

Indeed all 1st world countries despite what ethnic group or geographic region display remarkably similar characteristics. It appears that underlying dynamics of a 1st world economy generate similar profile of population.

screw homosexuality!!!!

 

[Tiger Genie]

It took USA more than hundred years to get where they are at now. Luckily, Pakistan started off the good start comparatively, stalled in the middle of the process, and now resuming from where it has left off.

Expect to see new Pakistan within 2050. Real change will come slow, but it will be worth it considering that real change that come with slow process will be in similar pace of process to collapse either. It depends on the foundation.



Toilet?

in that case Pakistan has arrived! what are you worried about.

 

[Sliver]

what is "developed" according to you?
according to me -
1) "developed" country is where an average citizen can reach his full potential without being subdued.
A developed nation is where the system works in bringing up the people - not pushing them down.

usually for me - the barometer for such a system is how many people want to stay in the system (positive) and how many want to leave it (negative).

2) how quickly is a change in society possible? mind you - a change in society is possible only when diverse views are allowed to flourish keeping in mind that the diverse views do not damage the society itself.

usually for me - that means the freedom on religion, irreligion (various shades of atheism) freedom of speech against the policies of the govt, freedom of speech against religion are possible.

how much time do you think for Pakistan to reach those values?

 

[Śakra]

Honestly speaking, probably never. I doubt India will be develop either.

 

[TankMan]

Because as I explained it is not 1st world yet but is hurtling in that direction. I often talk with Turks. PDF Turks give you only one perspective as they are more conservative. The more liberal Turks haunt Western forums and I hear their views. Their numbers are increasing year on year. Turkey is not yet 1st world but she is headed in that direction and is furthest along that path then any other Muslim country as I said before.

Turkey - Gays under Islamists Erdogan.

Gay parade Turkey

Don't even compare Turkey LGBT and Pakistan please despite what ticks you see on paper. Let see if this would happen in Lahore and what would happen.

I never said they were the same. Of course Turkey is more liberal.

I'm saying several other things: firstly, that there is a difference between what's on paper and what is in practice in Pakistan. Even you agree with this, yes? That means we're not following what is on paper.

On paper, Pakistan has freedom of speech and free and fair elections. Does it really? No. So there's a difference between our ethics, morals, laws and ideas, and what's in practice. That needs to change first.

What's the point in condemning and abandoning our ideology and ethics if we haven't even tried to practice them?

Secondly, that having gay rights is not what makes developed countries developed. Having an accountable system, strong institutions, workers' rights, etc. is what makes them developed. Once they have all that, they can get gay rights or whatever they want. Keep in mind that in the West, the legal system accommodated all this from within, in a gradual process, AFTER they became developed countries.

Thirdly, do we really want all this? You might, but does 99% of Pakistan's population? Is it right to declare that Pakistan can not be developed unless a foreign ideology is imposed on 200 million people? Is that 'Democratic'?

Don't even compare Turkey LGBT and Pakistan please despite what ticks you see on paper. Let see if this would happen in Lahore and what would happen.

You underestimate what happens in elite circles in Pakistan. Like I said, our problem is that we don't actually stick to our ethics.

 

[LegitimateIdiot]

the population growth of Pakistan should be at max 250 million

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I can find pictures like this from Pakistan, only without homosexuality or alcohol. (and probably with too, if i really looked)

Which go to confirm what I am saying. Those elite groups with greater economic privalages seenm to to be dispaying part characteristics of 1st world (note I said 1st world and not Western) and as fruits of greater economic uplift more Pakistani's will head toward displaying similar characterstics as their economic peers in Tokyo or Hong kong or London.

 

[TankMan]

Edward Maya concert in Peshawar. If you notice girls and boy section is still separate in Peshawar and Lahore and we are talking about middle to upper class tabka here. Pakistan is long way off from Turkey kind of liberalism.

Is having girls and boys' sections separate that bad of a thing? Our culture calls for that, whether you like it or not. If that is to change, it will change gradually as the newer generation rises.

Besides, I have personally been to concerts in Lahore where the girls and boys were free to mix. Peshawar is considerably more conservative than Lahore, at least as far as I know.

Regardless, that's not the point. The point is that the developed countries became developed before they became liberal. Just becoming liberal won't solve problems.