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When Islamic atheism thrived

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DaRk WaVe

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I have thought a lot before posting this article, i think there is no point in sticking to one belief blindly & stop the mind from thinking & Challenging the established myths, Plus i hope this thread wont be closed because of some trolls :)


Freethinking is perhaps not one of the strongest suits of modern Islam. For one thing, the list of books that have been banned for challenging prevalent religious orthodoxies and sensibilities during the past hundred years is disconcertingly long.

Modern Islamic clerics and scholars in various Muslim countries are often highly selective of which part of the Islamic heritage to emphasise and bring to light. Out of the countless and varied sources from centuries of vigorous debates, commentaries and controversies, they seem to dig out, and revel in, interpretations that are hopelessly conservative or frustratingly and grotesquely at odds with the life of modern Muslims.

It may therefore come as a surprise to many people that there is a long and vibrant intellectual tradition of dissidence and freethinking going back to the Middle Ages. The Islamic thinkers of the early medieval period expressed ideas and engaged in debates that would appear strangely enlightened in comparison with the attitudes and views adopted by modern Islamic scholarship.

This is the basic argument presented by From the History of Atheism in Islam by the renowned Egyptian thinker Abdel-Rahman Badawi. Published in Arabic in 1945, the book was reprinted only once in 1993. It discusses the work of the Islamic philosopher-scientists of the medieval period and the way they upheld reason, freedom of thought and humanist values, while questioning and often refuting some basic Islamic tenets.

Although many of those thinkers, according to Badawi, did not attempt to disprove the existence of God, they lashed out against the notion of prophethood and argued against the privileged position occupied by the Prophet Muhammad and his followers.

Most prominent among those scholars was Abu Bakr al-Razi (865-925 CE) who believed in the supreme importance of reason. He argued that the mind had an innate capacity to distinguish between good and evil, and between what was useful and what was harmful. According to him, the mind did not need any guidance from outside it, and for this reason the presence of prophets was redundant and superfluous.


Al-Razi directed his most vehement attack against the holy books in general, including the Qur'an, because he saw them as illogical and self-contradictory. He also believed that all human beings were equal in their intellectual capacities as they were in all other things. It made no sense therefore that God should single out one individual from among them in order to reveal to him his divine wisdom and assign him the task of guiding other human beings. Furthermore, he found that prophets' pronouncements and stories often contradicted those of other prophets. If their source was divine revelation as is claimed, their views would have been identical. The idea of a divinely-appointed mediator was therefore a myth.

Al-Razi understood the hold of religious belief on society, which he attributed to several factors. Firstly, systems of beliefs spread mainly through the human propensity for imitating and copying others. Secondly, religion's popularity rested on the close alliance between clerics and political rulers. The clerics often used this alliance to impose their own personal beliefs on people by force whenever the power of persuasion failed. Thirdly, the lavish and imposing character of the attire of religious men contributed to the high regard in which they were held by common people. Lastly, with the passage of time religious ideas became so familiar that they turned almost into deep-seated instincts that were no longer questioned.

In examining this chapter of Islamic history, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the views expressed, one cannot help feel amazed at the fact that the Islamic thinkers of the 10th century had the freedom to discuss and publish their "unorthodox" ideas, while the Islamic world now cannot, or will not, deal with any form of intellectual dissent. It might be reasonable to suggest then that the problem of Islam does not lie in inherited texts and traditions, but in interpretation. The Islamic heritage, like its Christian counterpart, is made up of a huge body of commentaries and interpretations that were produced in various periods of history to address problems specific to their age. We need to remember that the Christian scriptures have not changed since the middle ages. It was in the name of these very texts that innumerable so-called heretics were burnt at the stake.

There is little doubt that Islamic scholars have the task and the responsibility to review tradition and re-emphasise the human values of tolerance and freedom of thought. They do not have to look far for these values. All they are required to do is to reach deep into their own cultural coffers to retrieve the pearls and discard the dregs.
 
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Interesting piece, Emo. Free thinking or 'Reason' has challenged a lot of previously believed religious notions. Personally, I think its essential for the growth of a religion and society in general to allow reason to re-evaluate religious teachings and notions. It only makes it richer.

Btw, Emo many people here wont take this article in the right spirit. You gotta be ready for some personal online battles.
 
In examining this chapter of Islamic history, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the views expressed, one cannot help feel amazed at the fact that the Islamic thinkers of the 10th century had the freedom to discuss and publish their "unorthodox" ideas, while the Islamic world now cannot, or will not, deal with any form of intellectual dissent. It might be reasonable to suggest then that the problem of Islam does not lie in inherited texts and traditions, but in interpretation.

By reading this paragraph I got a an idea how much freedom of speech there was in an Islamic state....... All those ideas were originated under Islamic rule..... So I think there was never a case like church and state in Islam so why people are against an Islamic state now???
 
I dont believe that anyone is against an Islamic state as such. I am against the present batch of muslims leading under an Islamic banner. The will of the people should be done, but the problem lies that what the people want is like a 5 year old wanting to play with a can of gasoline.
 
One more thing I would like to say that whole world is crying that Muslims were killer they killed people just because they didn't accept their ideas and stuff like that if all that is true then why was AL-Razi spared???
 
One more thing I would like to say that whole world is crying that Muslims were killer they killed people just because they didn't accept their ideas and stuff like that if all that is true then why was AL-Razi spared???

thats what the writer is trying so that in Medieval Age of Islam had loads of freethinkers & Atheists who challenged the very foundation of Islam & theism but still they were never labeled as apostates, infidels etc while Modern Islamic clerics are very careful in choosing the things which they tell to Followers of Islam & they have given the whole world a radical view about Islam & Muslims.....

e.g in modern time if anyone raises even a slightest voice to challenge the beliefs which are deeply rooted in our instincts he/she will be straight away declared an infidel & no one will be ready to listen

Al-Razi is not the only atheist freethinker of its time
 
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Arguments relating to the primacy of the intellect

God has bestowed upon human beings the gift of intellect, by which they can judge right and wrong. If what the prophets announce corresponds to what the intellect decrees, then prophets are superfluous. If it contradicts what the intellect decrees, then one should not listen to them.(132) The discussion with the Barahima, the issue of the abrogation of the law, and the question of the possibility of substituting one law for another are also part of this argument.(133) The argument is then applied to Islam in particular.(134)

Connected with the claim of the sufficiency of human intellect is the discussion of various expressions of this intellect.(135) Human children are taught to speak by their parents, from one generation to another, and this has always been the case.(136) Ibn al-Rawandi is here probably addressing the question of whether human speech is natural or conventional. He seems to favor the solution of ilham (i.e., natural, innate knowledge), although the term itself does not appear. From the dais answer we can see that Ibn al-Rawandi gave various examples of innate knowledge (the ability of birds to Communicate with each other, the ability of ducks to swim, the ability of infants to suck milk), and that these were mentioned by him as being analogous to speech and understanding.

The sciences are also mentioned by Ibn al-Rawandi as proof for the sufficiency of the intellect. According to him, people developed the science of astronomy by watching the skies. They did not need a prophet to teach them how to watch. Nor did they need prophets in order to teach them how to build lutes. It is absurd to assume that without prophetic revelation people would not have learned that the intestines of a sheep, when dried and stretched upon a piece of wood, can produce pleasant tones. All these skills are acquired by the assiduous application of the inborn human intellect, discernment and power of observation.

Kraus thought that this part of the book opened with a paragraph praising the intellect in rhymed prose, one sentence of which is to be found in the dai's refutation.(137) Kraus noted that neither the dai nor Ibn al-Rawandi were given to writing rhymes. He argued that the only place one could expect either one of them to use such a sentence would be in an opening chapter of a conventional nature, where the praise of the intellect is sung before the real discussion begins. He therefore suggested that the Zumurrud had a poetic opening in which Ibn al-Rawandi glorified the intellect, and that the dai opened his response with a poetic paraphrase of Ibn al-Rawandi's verse.(138)

It is indeed possible that this, sentence is taken from an introduction written in flowery style. I do not think, however, that it could come from Ibn al-Rawandi's pen. Had this been the case, the dai would probably have said so explicitly, as he always does when he wants to attack something said by Ibn al-Rawandi. It is more likely that this sentence was written by the dai.(139) Furthermore, in the debate with the Kitab al-Zumurrud the proper estimate of the role of the intellect was not a side-issue, but stood at the core of the discussion. It is therefore likely that, rather than being a conventional opening, the reference to "the person who claims to cover the horizons of science with the wings of the intellect" is the dai's direct assault on Ibn al-Rawandi' s intellectualist pretensions.


Arguments relating to Muslim traditions

According to the Zumurrud, traditions concerning miracles are inevitably problematic. At the time of the performance of a supposed miracle only a small number of people could be close enough to the Prophet to observe his deeds. Reports given by such a small number of people cannot be trusted, for such a small group can easily have conspired to lie.(144) The Muslim tradition thus falls into the category of flimsy traditions, those based on a single authority (khabar al-ahad) rather than on multiple authorities (khabar mutawatir).(145) These religious traditions are lies endorsed by conspiracies.

The Zumurrud points out that Muhammad's own presuppositions (wad) and system (qanun)(146) show that religious traditions are not trustworthy. The Jews and Christians say that Jesus really died, but the Quran contradicts them.(147) If statements made by so many people cannot be trusted, all the more so the testimony of a handful of people like Muhammad's followers.

Ibn al-Rawandi also points out specific Muslim traditions, and tries to show that they are laughable. The tradition that the angels rallied round to help Muhammad is not logical, because it implies that the angels of Badr were weaklings, able to kill only seventy of the Prophet' s enemies. And if the angels were willing to help Muhammad at Badr, where were they at Uhud, when their help was so badly needed?(148)


Arguments relating to miracles

An important part of the Zumurrud is devoted to arguing that the miracles of the prophets are products of legerdemain. Like magicians, prophets exploit unusual natural phenomena, similar to the magnet but not as well known.(149) A number of Muhammad's miracles are specifically mentioned: the ablution basin, Umm Mabad's sheep, Suraqa, the wolf who talked, the intoxicated sheep who talked, and the isra.(150) According to the Zumurrud, the distance between Mecca and Jerusalem is not very great, and it is conceivable that a person could go from one of these cities to the other and back in one night, so the Prophet's presentation of his ability to describe Jerusalem as a miracle is a fraudulent trick (makhraq).(151) Even the Prophet's ability to predict the future (as in the case of the slaying of Ammar b. Yasir) is not regarded as a miracle, since it is claimed that any astrologer can do that.(152)


Arguments relating to the Muslim rituals

The Zumurrud criticizes prayer, preoccupation with ritual purity, and the ceremonies of the hajj: throwing stones, circumambulating a house that cannot respond to prayers, running between stones that can neither help nor harm. It goes on to ask why Safa and Marwa are venerated, and what difference there is between them and any other hill in the vicinity of Mecca, for example the hill of Abu Qubays, and why the Kaaba is any better than any other house.(153)

This sketch of the arguments contained in the Zumurrud confirms several of the conclusions presented in previous sections of the present study. It shows the close similarity between the Majalis Muayyadiyya, Maturidi and the Tathbit, and thus corroborates the claim that they derive from the same source, the Zumurrud. It also strengthens the impression that all three sources summarize rather than quote the Zumurrud. And it shows that none of the three sources relied on either of the other two for its information, since in each one of them we find elements that are lacking in the other two. A comparison of the sources allows us to see that the same arguments are attributed at times to Ibn al- Rawandi, at times to al-Warraq and at times to both of them. A correct understanding of the Zumurrud must allow for the active participation of both Ibn al-Rawandi and al-Warraq in the dialogue, and take into account the heretical convictions of both of them.

From the Encyclopedia of Islam: "The plentiful extracts from the K. al-Zumurraudh provide a fairly clear indication of the most heterodox doctrine of Ibn al-Rawandi, that of which posterity has been least willing to forgive him: a biting criticism of prophecy in general and of the prophecy of Muhammad in particular; he maintains in addition that religious dogmas are not acceptable to reason and must, therefore, be rejected; the miracles attributed to the Prophets, persons who may reasonably be compared to sorcerers and magicians, are pure invention, and the greatest of the miracles in the eyes of orthodox Muslims, the Quran, gets no better treatment: it is neither a revealed book nor even an inimitable literary masterpiece. In order to cloak his thesis, which attacks the root of all types of religion, Ibn al-Rawandi used the fiction that they were uttered by Brahmans. His reputation as irreligious iconoclast spread in the 4th/10th century beyond the borders of Muslim literature."
 
If I am not wrong than may be Al-Razi was also from the university of Imam jaafir saadiq..

and one more thing I've researched a bit about those great thinkers of medieval age of Islam and I have reached to the conclusion that history of such Personalities is vivid and part is from European sources who have molded it according to their own needs........

Like they say that the concept of Secularism was also originated from a Muslim philosopher but again its not clear....

I always say that a person should read whole Quran again and again to get the real picture of Islam.... Should read whole quran not specific portions:cheers:
 
If I am not wrong than may be Al-Razi was also from the university of Imam jaafir saadiq..

and one more thing I've researched a bit about those great thinkers of medieval age of Islam and I have reached to the conclusion that history of such Personalities is vivid and part is from European sources who have molded it according to their own needs........

Like they say that the concept of Secularism was also originated from a Muslim philosopher but again its not clear....

I always say that a person should read whole Quran again and again to get the real picture of Islam.... Should read whole quran not specific portions:cheers:

are you trying to dismiss the existence of Islamic atheists by declaring them as western delusion & propaganda?

If you are saying that these people didnt read Quran again & again then you are wrong, they history how they went towards free thinking e.g. Ibn al-Rawandi was a Mutazilite scholar but after rejecting the Mutazilite he went for Shia Islam and later became a freethinker
 
Besides Razi, Ibn Rushd (Averroes), Al-Kindi and Al-Farabi were prominent philosophers of this thought. Averroism caught on in Europe like fire.

The works of these philosophers were criticized by the much hailed Al Ghazali who critiqued their philosophical procedure and claimed that they had written heretical accounts for their concept of eternality of the world (co-eternatlity with God) denial of God's knowledge of the particulars and denial of bodily resurrection. Ghazali's works are much closer to what we are led to believe today.

Besides these, Betrundi, Tusi, Qunawi, Juwayni and Ashari and many other philosophers and sufis held beliefs that would amount to heresy in today's orthodox interpretations.

Philosophical thought is dominated by a handful of people, especially during the era of enlightenment. Unlike many other field, there isn't a need for many mouths to establish logic rather it is the merit of the argument that needs to be established. Razi and Rushd's works are the most important works of enlightened, unorthodox Islamic philosophy; Ghazali refutes them for reaching erroneous conclusions.

Free thinkers and philosopher were seldom prosecuted (not to say that they never were). Questioning basic tenants, penning a liberal, unorthodox and a more free metaphysical interpretation of God will most definitely generate a thousand fatwas of apostasy today.

Faith is personal. Tolerance is necessary.
 
I have reached to the conclusion that history of such Personalities is vivid and part is from European sources who have molded it according to their own needs

Don't give me the Naseem Hijazi argument. Ibn Rushd and Al Razi's works are available across libraries in multiple languages for you to read, if you want to. The propaganda argument is fallacious.


Like they say that the concept of Secularism was also originated from a Muslim philosopher but again its not clear....

It is very much clear if you want to read beyond Wikipedia.

I always say that a person should read whole Quran again and again to get the real picture of Islam.... Should read whole quran not specific portions:cheers:

Many of these great scholars, most of whom were polymaths, were quite educated in religious studies. Philosophical thought is far more complex and advanced than debates on PDF.
 
are you trying to dismiss the existence of Islamic atheists by declaring them as western delusion & propaganda?

If you are saying that these people didnt read Quran again & again then you are wrong, they history how they went towards free thinking e.g. Ibn al-Rawandi was a Mutazilite scholar but after rejecting the Mutazilite he went for Shia Islam and later became a freethinker

I am not saying that.... I never commented on what these people are I just said that I doubt the history and my second point was that to any person should who wants to understand the reality of Islam should read Quran again and again...... I don't know all of them personaly so I cannot comment on what they were or how they propagated their philosophical thinking
 
Connected with the claim of the sufficiency of human intellect is the discussion of various expressions of this intellect.(135) Human children are taught to speak by their parents, from one generation to another, and this has always been the case.(136) Ibn al-Rawandi is here probably addressing the question of whether human speech is natural or conventional. He seems to favor the solution of ilham (i.e., natural, innate knowledge), although the term itself does not appear. From the dais answer we can see that Ibn al-Rawandi gave various examples of innate knowledge (the ability of birds to Communicate with each other, the ability of ducks to swim, the ability of infants to suck milk), and that these were mentioned by him as being analogous to speech and understanding.

The sciences are also mentioned by Ibn al-Rawandi as proof for the sufficiency of the intellect. According to him, people developed the science of astronomy by watching the skies. They did not need a prophet to teach them how to watch. Nor did they need prophets in order to teach them how to build lutes. It is absurd to assume that without prophetic revelation people would not have learned that the intestines of a sheep, when dried and stretched upon a piece of wood, can produce pleasant tones. All these skills are acquired by the assiduous application of the inborn human intellect, discernment and power of observation.

Obviously humans have a great power of observation but who gave this power??? A big question mark....
If all prophets are liars why they all claimed that there is God??? cannot they claim that there is no God??
No prophet taught speaking or any language art they just propagated one theory all of them said there is a God and you will be held responsible for your deeds against a being who created you


Arguments relating to Muslim traditions

According to the Zumurrud, traditions concerning miracles are inevitably problematic. At the time of the performance of a supposed miracle only a small number of people could be close enough to the Prophet to observe his deeds. Reports given by such a small number of people cannot be trusted, for such a small group can easily have conspired to lie.(144) The Muslim tradition thus falls into the category of flimsy traditions, those based on a single authority (khabar al-ahad) rather than on multiple authorities (khabar mutawatir).(145) These religious traditions are lies endorsed by conspiracies.

The Zumurrud points out that Muhammad's own presuppositions (wad) and system (qanun)(146) show that religious traditions are not trustworthy. The Jews and Christians say that Jesus really died, but the Quran contradicts them.(147) If statements made by so many people cannot be trusted, all the more so the testimony of a handful of people like Muhammad's followers.

Ibn al-Rawandi also points out specific Muslim traditions, and tries to show that they are laughable. The tradition that the angels rallied round to help Muhammad is not logical, because it implies that the angels of Badr were weaklings, able to kill only seventy of the Prophet' s enemies. And if the angels were willing to help Muhammad at Badr, where were they at Uhud, when their help was so badly needed?(148)

Angels coming to help is in Quran and whether they actually helped or how they helped is in traditions the other things that traditions are debatable and still there are open debates on many traditions

Arguments relating to miracles

An important part of the Zumurrud is devoted to arguing that the miracles of the prophets are products of legerdemain. Like magicians, prophets exploit unusual natural phenomena, similar to the magnet but not as well known.(149) A number of Muhammad's miracles are specifically mentioned: the ablution basin, Umm Mabad's sheep, Suraqa, the wolf who talked, the intoxicated sheep who talked, and the isra.(150) According to the Zumurrud, the distance between Mecca and Jerusalem is not very great, and it is conceivable that a person could go from one of these cities to the other and back in one night, so the Prophet's presentation of his ability to describe Jerusalem as a miracle is a fraudulent trick (makhraq).(151) Even the Prophet's ability to predict the future (as in the case of the slaying of Ammar b. Yasir) is not regarded as a miracle, since it is claimed that any astrologer can do that.(152)

Again this is a matter of traditions and is debatable

Arguments relating to the Muslim rituals

The Zumurrud criticizes prayer, preoccupation with ritual purity, and the ceremonies of the hajj: throwing stones, circumambulating a house that cannot respond to prayers, running between stones that can neither help nor harm. It goes on to ask why Safa and Marwa are venerated, and what difference there is between them and any other hill in the vicinity of Mecca, for example the hill of Abu Qubays, and why the Kaaba is any better than any other house.(153)

It was just an order and every muslim has to follow it... If kaaba were not declared as the house God I would have never prayed facing Kaaba.... its just an order
 
BTW I personally think that there are no absolute neutrals or absolute neutrality is impossible..... neutrals are on neutral side and they are not on religious side means neutrals and religious sides are two different sides..... So how can a person claim that um in the middle... If you don't believe in GOD then you believe in not believing.... if you don't accept Islam then you accept to not accept.... So not accepting something is also accepting something
 
Hi
The atheists tend to show no interest in professional philosophy, religion, or theology and target the mass market. The arguments against the existence of God are generally versions of scientism, the view that all of life's problems may be solved by appeal to the natural sciences, and the moral argument against religion, that religion brings out the worst in people. Part of the discourse of the new atheism grows out of the debate between creationists and evolutionists, and it often seems to stay at the level of two competing fundamentalisms: belief in the literal truth of scripture on the one hand, and belief in the saving power of science on the other.
Atheist's come from all religions, an atheist uses his/her intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he/she may have learnt in his/her religion may not seem to be logical to him/her.
Atheism has more to do with personal skepticism rather than any logic's, however Atheism is not part of a religion rather it is the opposite of all those religions who believe in the existence of God, its natural for every human to question the existence of God but to conclude that on ones subjective judgment is highly arbitrary. In a word the topic "Islamic Atheism" it's just crap
 
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