US Congressman taking an oath on the Quran

[Keysersoze]

I'd swear on the Superman #1 that I own if I ever won the elections. Trust me they'd have no issues then.

Never mind the damn oath!!!!!! You have a superman issue #1????????:banana2:

Maybe you can lend me some money!

 

[TomCat111]

You know very well, if this argument ends up in the US Supreme Court, he will win hands down, based on constitutionality of separation of church and state.

Swearing on the bible is a living link to our founders an unbroken chain strecthing back to the very founding of our country.

Well, founding fathers like George Washington owned black slaves too. Why don’t we go back to the tradition of our very founding fathers owning black slaves too? Fortunately, we evolved as conscious human beings and started to recognize blacks as equal human beings. Similarly we need to evolve once more and recognize that the patriotism can not be tied down to the silly traditions, rather it is upheld by honoring the constitution, which without a doubt separates the church from the state.

The oath is not to the book but to the state and the constatution.

Then what seems to be the problem, constitution doesn’t expect one to take oath on the Bible?

He is not even required to say the word God but can isntead merely affirm.

Similarly, he is also not even required to take oath on the Bible, so why are people like you bent on forcing him to fulfill your desire to follow silly traditions which you imagine to be of paramount importance?

Allowing him to decide which book means he places more importance on the ideals of the book ad his personal desires than ideals of the state and the desires of its people.

No... on contrary, by allowing him to decide which book he takes oath on means we are honoring the American constitution which separates the church from the state. Beside, majority of his constituents do NOT have a problem with him taking oath on the Quran; therefore, you argument of ‘desires of its people’ falls flat on its face.

If he wont swea ron the bible, how can we trust him to vote for American values in all situations?

I am sorry, but this is the most ignorant argument I have seen from you. American values are enshrined in the constitution and not in the Bible. Has he ever even hinted that he will not uphold the American constitution as his guided principal? If not, then you have no bases to doubt his good intentions or his patriotism.

(His leftist platform aside) What if an issue comes before him wher ethe American way and Sharia are opposed and he has to decide (gay marriage, western versions of womans rights etc)?

The same way the white-Christians legislators may do. Who says he has to base his decisions on the teachings of bible?

This type of litmus testing is an important part of the American politcal landscape. America want sits legislators free from the self delcared hand of God for the most part.

He is not the one doing that, it’s the religious bigots who are forcing their version of ‘hand of God’ on him.

 

[zraver]

No doubt I wil get banned but... Asim your full of **** i did not interject race into this. i dont evne know what color the guy is other than he was once catholic. I have made no refence to his race and don't apreciate the ad hominem attack.

if he is already teaching/supporitng/advancing non_islamic ideals then how can the Koran have more value to him? There is a time and place for tradition and this is one of those times. He would not automatically win because he is trying to interject his religious faith into the public arena and that is forbidden.

I am sorry, but this is the most ignorant argument I have seen from you. American values are enshrined in the constitution and not in the Bible. Has he ever even hinted that he will not uphold the American constitution as his guided principal? If not, then you have no bases to doubt his good intentions or his patriotism.

if he wont evne give a nod to our traditions he does not deserve to lead. The bible in this case does not and has never represented the words inside of it, but it does represent a living link to our founders.

This is racism... One that extends to putting Muslims in encampments like you guys did in World War 2. Lol you guys are screwing up a good secular thing. Christian fundos at their best.

Your so full of **** I can smell it from here. How come every time some one bitches about some one else chagnign tradition to suit thier own agenda some one else plays the race card?

Clinically it's called projection and your the racist and the fundo.

 

[A.Rahman]

No doubt I wil get banned but... Asim your full of **** i did not interject race into this. i dont evne know what color the guy is other than he was once catholic. I have made no refence to his race and don't apreciate the ad hominem attack.

if he is already teaching/supporitng/advancing non_islamic ideals then how can the Koran have more value to him? There is a time and place for tradition and this is one of those times. He would not automatically win because he is trying to interject his religious faith into the public arena and that is forbidden.

I am sorry, but this is the most ignorant argument I have seen from you. American values are enshrined in the constitution and not in the Bible. Has he ever even hinted that he will not uphold the American constitution as his guided principal? If not, then you have no bases to doubt his good intentions or his patriotism.

if he wont evne give a nod to our traditions he does not deserve to lead. The bible in this case does not and has never represented the words inside of it, but it does represent a living link to our founders.

This is racism... One that extends to putting Muslims in encampments like you guys did in World War 2. Lol you guys are screwing up a good secular thing. Christian fundos at their best.

Your so full of **** I can smell it from here. How come every time some one bitches about some one else chagnign tradition to suit thier own agenda some one else plays the race card?

Clinically it's called projection and your the racist and the fundo.

Zraver has been exposed.

 

[Keysersoze]

No doubt I wil get banned but... Asim your full of **** i did not interject race into this. i dont evne know what color the guy is other than he was once catholic. I have made no refence to his race and don't apreciate the ad hominem attack.

if he is already teaching/supporitng/advancing non_islamic ideals then how can the Koran have more value to him? There is a time and place for tradition and this is one of those times. He would not automatically win because he is trying to interject his religious faith into the public arena and that is forbidden.

I am sorry, but this is the most ignorant argument I have seen from you. American values are enshrined in the constitution and not in the Bible. Has he ever even hinted that he will not uphold the American constitution as his guided principal? If not, then you have no bases to doubt his good intentions or his patriotism.

if he wont evne give a nod to our traditions he does not deserve to lead. The bible in this case does not and has never represented the words inside of it, but it does represent a living link to our founders.

This is racism... One that extends to putting Muslims in encampments like you guys did in World War 2. Lol you guys are screwing up a good secular thing. Christian fundos at their best.

Your so full of **** I can smell it from here. How come every time some one bitches about some one else chagnign tradition to suit thier own agenda some one else plays the race card?

Clinically it's called projection and your the racist and the fundo.

Your passion is interesting. But bear in mind that traditions often change. It could be argued that the link to the founding fathers is in fact the constitution rather than a oath. An oath is an oath is an oath. Does it ultimately matter what he is holding in his hand when he gives it? Religion is a contentious thing in the U.S. So to have any religious artifact(the bible) in a political situation is inherently imbalanced. The U.S. has changed over the years what does it matter if there is a small change here?

 

[TomCat111]

Your passion is interesting. But bear in mind that traditions often change. It could be argued that the link to the founding fathers is in fact the constitution rather than a oath. An oath is an oath is an oath. Does it ultimately matter what he is holding in his hand when he gives it? Religion is a contentious thing in the U.S. So to have any religious artifact(the bible) in a political situation is inherently imbalanced. The U.S. has changed over the years what does it matter if there is a small change here?

Well spoken...

 

[TomCat111]

if he wont evne give a nod to our traditions he does not deserve to lead.

Let ask you, what is more important to you, is it the Bible, the American traditions, or the American constitution?

 

[zraver]

The constatution and the traditions that re-infoirce the bond between the foudners intent and the same document. If the Bible had been substauted for a Mason book or a law ook or what ever at the beginign or if we had a tradition off swearing on book sof our choice it would be one thing. or if this wa sa new occurance. But dozens of non-Christina legislators have sworn on the bible as a symbol of thier carrying on the legal and cultural traditions of Americans.

I don't care what reigion someone is. I do care about maintaining the traditions that created a society capable of looking at itself and correcitng it's mistakes. Adding more divisiviness based soley on a desire to be different (the guy can't even demonstrate he is a practicing muslim) is a BS reason for ditching hundreds of years of pulbic dispalys to American culture and system of goverment.

This is not a white issue a bvlack or a tan issue. it is about preserving the idea that led to a coutnry where white, black and tan can all excell.

George Washinton literally turne ddown a crown and did ponly wha tthe people asked him do. This type of self sacrafice is behind the oath on the bible. The least a legislator can do is follow in those august footsteps.

Where the foundign fathers perfect?No of course not but they were damn sure better than 99.9% of the leaders the world has ever had. Some had slaves (GW and TJ both manumittted theirs) but others wer efoundign membersof abolintionist societies ( the first such was founded by Ben Franklin).

America needs leaders who are cognisant of their duty to the public and not out get into the media spotlight.

 

[Keysersoze]

The constatution and the traditions that re-infoirce the bond between the foudners intent and the same document. If the Bible had been substauted for a Mason book or a law ook or what ever at the beginign or if we had a tradition off swearing on book sof our choice it would be one thing. or if this wa sa new occurance. But dozens of non-Christina legislators have sworn on the bible as a symbol of thier carrying on the legal and cultural traditions of Americans.

I don't care what reigion someone is. I do care about maintaining the traditions that created a society capable of looking at itself and correcitng it's mistakes. Adding more divisiviness based soley on a desire to be different (the guy can't even demonstrate he is a practicing muslim) is a BS reason for ditching hundreds of years of pulbic dispalys to American culture and system of goverment.

This is not a white issue a bvlack or a tan issue. it is about preserving the idea that led to a coutnry where white, black and tan can all excell.

George Washinton literally turne ddown a crown and did ponly wha tthe people asked him do. This type of self sacrafice is behind the oath on the bible. The least a legislator can do is follow in those august footsteps.

Where the foundign fathers perfect?No of course not but they were damn sure better than 99.9% of the leaders the world has ever had. Some had slaves (GW and TJ both manumittted theirs) but others wer efoundign membersof abolintionist societies ( the first such was founded by Ben Franklin).
America needs leaders who are cognisant of their duty to the public and not out get into the media spotlight.[/

QUOTE]

At the end of the day the last statement gets to the heart of the matter doesn't it? If a congressman (or any other politician) does their job ineffectively you will have the opportunity to remove them in a subsequent election. Regardless of whether they swore on a bible or an old chewing gum wrapper. So the only issue at hand here is that of tradition. And as has been stated traditions, can and often will change with the times.
I doubt any politician is made better for swearing an oath (of course there are always exceptions to every rule) If they are sneaky liar before they swear the oath they will more than likely be sneaky liars afterwards.

 

[Awesome]

No doubt I wil get banned but... Asim your full of ****

Normally you would, if you used the same abusive tone against one of our members. Since its an attack against ME, I'm ready to look the other way.

i did not interject race into this. i dont evne know what color the guy is other than he was once catholic. I have made no refence to his race and don't apreciate the ad hominem attack.

You did try to equate the tradition of the founding fathers with American tradition. The American founding fathers would've enslaved Keith Ellison for being black.

From what I've read, the definition of an American is fluid and that's why America takes pride in calling itself the melting pot of all races, traditions and cultures. You unfortunately are trying to say that the current American way is a way of shame... Either you're proud of it or you are ashamed of it.

if he is already teaching/supporitng/advancing non_islamic ideals then how can the Koran have more value to him?

He can keep religion and state separated, you can't.

There is a time and place for tradition and this is one of those times.

The oath to uphold a secular constitution is a time for Christian traditions? Either you're confused about being an American or Secularism.

He would not automatically win because he is trying to interject his religious faith into the public arena and that is forbidden.

Then so should every other member of congress not be allowed to take the oath on the bible.

I am sorry, but this is the most ignorant argument I have seen from you. American values are enshrined in the constitution and not in the Bible. Has he ever even hinted that he will not uphold the American constitution as his guided principal? If not, then you have no bases to doubt his good intentions or his patriotism.

if he wont evne give a nod to our traditions he does not deserve to lead. The bible in this case does not and has never represented the words inside of it, but it does represent a living link to our founders.

Not give a nod to your traditions? He has campaigned fighting for all current issues of the 5th congressional district of Minnesota. His vote bank? Americans.


This is racism... One that extends to putting Muslims in encampments like you guys did in World War 2. Lol you guys are screwing up a good secular thing. Christian fundos at their best.

Your so full of **** I can smell it from here. How come every time some one bitches about some one else chagnign tradition to suit thier own agenda some one else plays the race card?

Maybe with you, should be a hint that you are being racist quite often in your life. Nice to know.

Clinically it's called projection and your the racist and the fundo.

Sure, ask around for my non-stinted support for secularism.

Oh and a note, we encourage freedom of speech and you are entitled to criticize anything and speak up for anything, including Pakistan, Islam, America, Christianity, Satan worshiping, etc. etc.

What I won't appreciate is insulting someone. My words implied that you were a racist, and I apologize for that. But let me tell you I just meant that specifically about your insistence to equate Americanism to how it was during its foundation.

Rest is up to you, you being nice is preferred but not mandatory. The official PFF line would be tougher if you continue to express your views in the way you did with someone else.

 

[Awesome]

Well spoken...

<wipes a tear>Look at you two, finally in agreement</wipes a tear>

 

[TomCat111]

Adding more divisiviness based soley on a desire to be different (the guy can't even demonstrate he is a practicing muslim) is a BS reason for ditching hundreds of years of pulbic dispalys to American culture and system of goverment.

Then by your definition, Martin Luther King was a divisive BSer too, because he also ditched “hundreds of years of pulbic dispalys to American culture and system of government” by demanding treatment of blacks as equals to whites, right?

 

[TomCat111]

Look at you two, finally in agreement

I don't know about 'you two', but I know I was...

 

[A.Rahman]

Zraver did your mom & dad ever sent you to "jesus camp" ?.

 

[Awesome]

C'mon Caesar, give your fellow man a k... hug