What's new

Urdu is not our language: Mahmood Khan Achakzai in PDM's Karachi gathering.

Urdu is a Islamic imperial language that was utilised by Muslim empires to ensure they could speak to their empire in India

It became the language of the muslim court
It wasn't the language of the Muslim courts on any Muslim rulership in the subcontinent, Persian, or more correctly, Afghan Persian was the language of the Muslim courts all around Indian subcontinent. Urdu, or Lashkari as it was more commonly known, was a hybrid colloquial form of speech that developed around Delhi and What is now Utter Pradesh, Bihar and Deccan respectively.
 
Can this MC kanjar explain to rest of the Pakistanis as to how we communicate with each other if Urdu is not our language.
 
another idiot commenting about the issue he has no knowledge, there were always two dialect of URDU one from Delhi and one from Lucknow UP and after getting Freedom modified Dehli dialect survived in Pakistan not the pure Lucknow dialect .....

- I need not to mention whole of Urban Punjab and Sindh used to follow Delhi dialect of Urdu [with little variations] even before getting the freedom in 1947

- Delhi was never the part of UP but geographically was part of undivided Punjab, and need not to mention which State among the States of Pakistan and India has more percentage of Punjab.

- And as far as Indian claim on Urdu is concern those idiots at present need to show a single street in whole of India where pure Urdu is spoken in any of its dialect.

- Lastly one can list the names of all famous Urdu poets after the freedom and should check ethnic backgrounds it might be a surprise for some that the number of poets of Urdu from the communities of Punjabi or Pashtuns residing in Punjab exceeds in number from the poets of Ihail-e-Zaban community in Karachi .....

- Same is the case of Novel writers and other form of Urdu literature

After explaining this all ..... I would like to say that Indians are not welcomed to comment about our Internal Political matters
Maybe you should do a little more reading mate. There were three dialects of Urdu, two of which that have survived and one that has assimilated with the larger dialect. Their are currently three major dialects of Urdu that are recognized. Dehlvi also called Lashkari, Dakhani (Deccani), and Lahori. The rest have either been assimilated or have been purged from their respective lands. Ask any Urdu Linguist and he will tell you without hesitation that the most pure form of Urdu being spoken is in Utter Pradesh, no comparison. Because that's where Urdu originated.
 
So what is the language that our ethnically divided people use to communicate amongst each other?
It can be language to comunicate ,matter of choice rather then to impose...Achkazai is right Urdu is not there language
 
Urdu is a Pakistani language. It is widely spoken across Pakistan and has been the language of Muslims across the region for centuries. Before Urdu it was Persian, but Urdu has held the role for centuries.

There are more English speakers in India than Britain - does that make English an Indian language? Of course not.

Language evolves, genes evolve, nations and identities evolve. The wierd fascination with genetic and historic roots by some people on this forum is retarded.
 
Funny how the person agreeing with Achakzai is a Brit Pakistani who regularly gets banned for his racist posts and who has hardly spent more a few summers in Pakistan. Instead he is spewing nonsense here telling Pakistanis what their mother tongue should be.
Sir majority of Pakistanis living in Pakistan do not have urdu as there mother tongue... Rather ,Pashto ,Punjabi ,Sindhi and balochi
 
Sir majority of Pakistanis living in Pakistan do not have urdu as there mother tongue... Rather ,Pashto ,Punjabi ,Sindhi and balochi
Mother tongue is one thing. Proficiency in a second language is another thing. Most Pakistanis speak Urdu, and majority have full proficiency in it.


I'm sure English isn't your mother tongue, but you just wrote perfect English to get your point across.
 
Urdu is not synonymous with Islam.


Nah. Using farsi didnt make sense. Urdu actually had its speakers whether second language or third language but Persian was a language that never gained tract with the people of the region due to it being high class. Urdu was formed as a union of various languages so that the military campaigns cannot be bottlenecked with language barriers where effective communication can change the very landscape of the battle ground. Persian was entirely the court and the administrative language. It was not the instrument of communication between the local populace. Its status as ?Lingua Franca could also be brought to question that it was the Lingua Franca of the elite and not of the people, which was common for its time however the negative impact of this was that Persian never became the communicative language of the people. It would survive as long as the administration of the multi-ethnic empire survived, but the moment it would decline, so would persian and that is exactly what happened. The moment the
Mughals lost power, the freefall of the Persian Language began and by 1947, it had little to know speakers. To use that as the lingua franca would have been an absolute imposition. Urdu is different in the sense that it was brought forth as a communication device between multi-ethnic soldiery and thus was able to become more rooted amongst the populace than persian and while persian heavily influenced the languages of the empires it was administered in, Urdu was formed from the very languages that were found in the region or were being brought forth. It is not an Indian construct. For example, When guys like saithan, T-12345, Webslave, Blackeyes and all the rest speak in turkic, i am able to understand a few words and that is because Urdu is formed from Turkic as well.

Farsi, by 1947, was going to die. No point trying to spend anytime to save Farsi. Urdu was actually spoken at some quarters as a second or third language in what would go on to become Pakistan. The Punjab of that time had people that spoke it as a second and third language as well and other areas that would have similar cases. Thus Picking Urdu made sense as it was a language understood and spoken already, far more than farsi even in east Pakistan. This was a link and the influence it had from local languages was something that Farsi never had. Urdu was formed from Pashto, Sindhi, Punjabi. If people speak their native language infront of you, you can understand at some low level due to the influence those languages had on urdu.

Coming to creating a new language from Farsi. So another form of Urdu? Why expend the effort to reach the same conclusion and that would have been loved by the populace. Create a new language for a new country and impose it on the people. Not only East Pakistan, West Pakistan would have revolted as well if something like this was done. The Reason people accepted Urdu was due to its links to the region that would become Pakistan. Make a 'Pakvan' and impose it and the country wouldnt have lasted the third day. I have said much about Muslim League and its decisions in Pakistan but language pick was something that i cant criticize. That was a right call.

As for language preservation. I declare openly that we have sinned when it comes to local languages and this should be corrected immediately however Lingua Franca will always be needed due to our diversity. We need that bridge. I am surprised. I thought you would support this language since this is exactly like Pakistan. Urdu is the union of various languages spoken in the neighborhood from Central Asia to the ends of Beas. Pakistan is a union of states from the mountains connecting to Central Asia to the bank of beas. Urdu was basically, before Aurangzeb was called many names three extremely striking, Lahori, Dehalvi and Lashkari. If it was called Lahori then you can imagine the roots it had in modern day Pakistan. Anyhow Lingua Franca was needed and it become Lingua Franca and one that was actually understood by people all over pakistan. Let me give a quote of a local metaphor 'Farsi Zuban Bol raha hai' is a term used back 3-4 generations and to this day to highlight that, i dont understand what you are saying.

Lastly as for Mehmood Achakzai. You ask him to speak Farsi and he will lose his mind. He is a nationalist and he will speak in the tone of Nationalists.

As for India and Languages. I admire what their legal laws did however the story did not start as rosy as it is often painted.

India did the exact same thing as their Constitution was enforced on 26th January 1950 where its Article 343 held that the official language of India shall be Hindi in the Devanagari script and this was before Pakistan even had a constitution. The system was working in line with the the British had left and the Constitutional framework for Pakistan at that time was the Government of India Act 1935 and the Independence Act 1947. So in 1950 a diverse nation like India also needed a linguistic bridge and Hindi seemed the most apt since it was spoken by more people and English was used as a central language, was to be phased out but Hindi alone was resisted and the parliament was forced to extend the date because Hindi faced the same limitation that Urdu faced that was world was being globalized and English was a major part of that world. In 1963 India did pass the Languages official Act which held that a committee shall be passed which shall translate the english texts (Proceedings of the parliament at that time were in English) into Hindi and section 6 and 7 held that any state can use local languages for state parliament and State High Court.


Section 6 Authorised Hindi translation of State Acts in certain cases.

Where the Legislature of a State has prescribed any language other than Hindi for use in Acts passed by the Legislature of the State or in Ordinances promulgated by the Governor of the State, a translation of the same in Hindi, in addition to a translation thereof in the English language as required by clause (3) of article 348 of the Constitution, may be published on or after the appointed day under the authority of the Governor of the State in the Official Gazette of that State and in such a case, the translation in Hindi of any such Act or Ordinance shall be deemed to be the authoritative text thereof in the Hindi language.

Section 7. Optional use of Hindi or other official language in judgments etc., of High Courts. .

As from the appointed day or any day thereafter, the Governor of a State may, with the previous consent of the President, authorise the use of Hindi or the official language of the State, in addition to the English language, for the purposes of any judgment, decree or order passed or made by the High Court for that State and where any judgment, decree or order is passed or made in any such language (other than the English language), it shall be accompanied by a translation of the same in the English language issued under the authority of the High Court.

This act was forced to be passed due to the massive linguistic diversity in India most notable of it being in the Dravidian languages and the tribal languages in the East with the Indo-Aryan languages in populous northern India.

Infact India is even a greater mess since they now need two Lingua Francas as many states were open to Hindi and preferred English as the Lingua Franca and many protested like hell when this act was passed and there was an amendment in 1967 where it was held that English could only be removed when a resolution was passed by every state that had not adopted the language. It is still a pretty big battle for example states which had Hindi as their official; language are allowed to use Hindi as Court language in
High Court but not others save for Tamil Nadu and i think that is largely for Tamil people and all that happened with Tamil independence. Its actually complicated in its usage however we should have adopted something similar and by the 60s, we had a dictator that could do that. I am sure guys like @Joe Shearer have more info on this than i do.


Lastly indus i know you want there to be a wall of fire between anything Indian and Pakistan but i am not sold on Urdu. :P

Thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece, thank you.

I do however think that we give ourselves an unnecessary bad rap for the lack of effort made regarding East Pakistan, considering we were a new country, with multitude of problems that would consume the attention of our leadership, I in think our founding fathers made a lot of effort and tried to correct their mistakes with fair regularity. Mistakes will always be made, what is important is, was effort made to rectify.

Giving Bengali equal weightage on stamps, currency and passports etc. The Bangladesh parliament building as it stands now was actually approved before the civil war, early 1960s I think but can't exactly remember right now. A decision in principle had been made to declare Decca as a second capital, that was a far-reaching move, as part of that decision, the design for the building and its construction was already approved before Bangladesh came into being.

Regarding languages, I am extremely proud of the approach we have taken, mistakes were made, but Urdu was never forced down anyone's throats, that I think is commendable, and as a society, it is heartening to see the wide acceptance of Urdu as our second mother tongue.

Inda had no choice but to adopt the route it did. Two official languages of equal importance, and around 22 scheduled languages, Hindi being the only langauge that is official and a scheduled language. But even after 70 years of independace and an actual Indian state, the they have still not agreed on Hindi or any other language as a "national language". This thread isnt about Indian languages, but i was a bit surprised when you said that you are a bit impressed, but then you went on to clarify that they are in-fact in a mess. But they have been better at narrative building, then we have.

There is an event in Bihar, I cant recall the name of the district, I will try to find it if I can. So, i am recalling from memory for now.
Soon after Indias ndependance, Bihar decided that Hindi was to be given prominance and declared first official langage, Urdu as the only other language to be given recognition. There was a district with a Bengali majority and they wouldnt have any of it, did not want to live with Hindi speakers, and they fought to be pat of West Bengal, the district itself had few "thanas" thats their district sub-division, those thanas had majority Hindi speakers and they fought to be kept in Bihar because they did not want to included with West Bengal with other Bengalis. I found it so funny, and a reminder, that identity is important, no matter which form it takes.

For Pakistan, Urdu has become part of our identity, I find that very heartening.
Urdu's journey started the day Ghaznavid soldiers got in touch with locals of Punjab (1000 AD) where people spoke old punjabi..which had loan words and influence from haryanvi/khariboli , one of the few minor languages spoken in punjab back in the day.
After Ghaznavid Panjab or Lahore(capital of Ghaznavids) , it reached a milestone in Delhi once Qutb u din aibak moved his barracks there in 1193 AD .In between was a period of nearly 200 years when the earliest form of urdu had already developed in Punjab and was used by the soldiers to interact with local Punjabi people.. Upon reaching Delhi it further merged with local barj dialects of khari boli, where it became a proper literary language and produced the first established poets like Amir Khusrow.
However people only know about Amir Khusrow .There were poets in the Ghaznavid courts of Lahore, poets like Abul Faraj Runi and Masud Saad Salman who were tasked to persianize the local culture and were likely the first people to do urdu poetry.Masud Saad wrote three 'Diwans' ,one of them was in the earliest forms of Urdu.It was the cultural policy adopted in Lahore that gave way to a new language which was initially known as 'Dehlvi'.Which later on spread further east and south and picked a new name 'Hindvi' , merged with local dialects got new loanwords..and ultimately got the label Urdu...

So the point is origin of Urdu was never UP but the present day punjab..

I will be extremely grateful if you could send some links, this is an eye-opener, and a pleasant one at that.
 
Mother tongue is one thing. Proficiency in a second language is another thing. Most Pakistanis speak Urdu, and majority have full proficiency in it.


I'm sure English isn't your mother tongue, but you just wrote perfect English to get your point across.
Yes , it does not matter whatever second language we adopt between different groups in a federation to communicate . local languages should not be suprresed as it case in Pakistan..
 
Sir majority of Pakistanis living in Pakistan do not have urdu as there mother tongue... Rather ,Pashto ,Punjabi ,Sindhi and balochi
and who is denying this ... ???

Mother tongue and National language are two different things .... for example I am not Punjabi its not my mother tongue but on the basis of this should I CLAIM PUNJABI is not "OUR Language" .... ???

Now are you getting what an Intolerant Ethno Fascist Bastard Achakzai attempted in his speech under the shadow of Quaid Mausoleum in front of Gathering which was dominated by Sindhi Speaking people .... and in the presence of a Party who just few days back before Karachi Jalsa officially issued 2 different photos and in one which showing the the person who disrespect Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah in Gujranwala during Ayub Khan election and the other one in which whole PML-N tier-1 leadership was playing ethnic and linguistic card by wearing Punjabi Paag

Not only this they disrespect Quaid Mausoleum ..... while another sectarian leader of their alliance Mulana Diesel did not even offered Fathia at Quaid Mausoleum so you think it was just a routine speech by that bastard ....

Look Again that was an Speech in which Achakzai Pukhtoon Nationalist target a particular Language in the presence of leadership who came to this city from Punjab and was involved in playing ethnic card by issuing 1 specific pictures with very direct message to a Particular Community.

So plz don't read the situation at face value ... it was a well thought plan to instigate unrest .....
 
Urdu has heavy influence of Punjabi, so it is easy for most Pakistanis to pick up.

I want Farsi to come back in Pakistan also as a second national language.
 
Many posters here incorrectly attribute Urdu to Mughals, which is far from truth. By the time farsi replaced urdu as the language of mughal court their rule barely existed outside Delhi.
 
and who is denying this ... ???

Mother tongue and National language are two different things .... for example I am not Punjabi its not my mother tongue but on the basis of this should I CLAIM PUNJABI is not "OUR Language" .... ???

Now are you getting what an Intolerant Ethno Fascist Bastard Achakzai attempted in his speech under the shadow of Quaid Mausoleum in front of Gathering which was dominated by Sindhi Speaking people .... and in the presence of a Party who just few days back before Karachi Jalsa officially issued 2 different photos and in one which showing the the person who disrespect Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah in Gujranwala during Ayub Khan election and the other one in which whole PML-N tier-1 leadership was playing ethnic and linguistic card by wearing Punjabi Paag

Not only this they disrespect Quaid Mausoleum ..... while another sectarian leader of their alliance Mulana Diesel did not even offered Fathia at Quaid Mausoleum so you think it was just a routine speech by that bastard ....

Look Again that was an Speech in which Achakzai Pukhtoon Nationalist target a particular Language in the presence of leadership who came to this city from Punjab and was involved in playing ethnic card by issuing 1 specific pictures with very direct message to a Particular Community.

So plz don't read the situation at face value ... it was a well thought plan to instigate unrest .....

We are wonderful at building a self-deprecating narrative, based on hearsay and cultural lexicons, where we keep repeating certain things, so much, and because there is no opposition to those statements, they become accepted facts, without basis.

Now to clarify, I have read your statements often enough, to grown to have a respect for your views, so I am not putting a blame here, but inviting an open sensible answer. From anyone.

Where have we oppressed any of the regional languages, Every province is free to teach any language they wish, and if Punjab has not done so, and if there really was any mass opposition, the people would be on the streets, none of our ethnic groups are the quiet types lol, they know how to demand if something truly bothers them. I would just like proper examples of this narrative that we have oppressed our local languages.

To clarify, America does not have an official language, English has gained traction over time by cultural acceptance and official use, but it is not an official language of the country. It does not mean English was drummed down the throat of American citizens, it grew to be part of American society. Similarly, a Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan or a Kashmiri as a group did not wake up one day and decided, OK, from today we collectively will speak this language and collectively we will be known as such. I think it should be understood that an identity, ethnic, linguistic or otherwise is a process and over time that process solidifies, resulting in a solid self, a solid definable identity.

I see the same thing happening in Pakistan, where a process is in play, where people have accepted Urdu as a secondary mother tongue, at various levels of acceptance depending on region or city or even families, but the process is alive and widely accepted. Right now, that is the Urdu we have in Pakistan, effectively a second mother tongue.

I am middle age, and reasonably well read I think, although always open to new information, I have never seen linguistic oppression in Pakistan, other than a sort of cultural lexicon, we are bad, we do this and that, and everybody else is good.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom