The Great Asian Showdown: India’s Kolkata Class v/s China’s Type-52D Destroyer

[Abingdonboy]

I am surprised you do not know bigger gun has advantage in shore bombardment? Support amphibious expedition. A bigger calibre boast more submunition for anti aerial and a wider coverage/ umbrella. More damage is done with a bigger rounds. And big gun with longer calibre will means longer range.

Indeed this is true but the cases of naval vessels providing fire support for expedtionary forces is a much touted capabilty (mostly by main gun manufactuerers) but real world examples of such employment are few and far between. So, in my opnion, it is a nice capabilty to have but it's hardly a major disadvantadge not to have a larger calibre main gun.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Very nice explanation, thank you.

The AEGIS can only handle 3 targets at the same time? Wow !!! That's a lot less than what I expected. That's big vulnerability in case of a saturation attack.

I was under the impression that AEGIS has 4 fire control radars, but I guess it has only 3 right? An each fire control radar can only handle 1 target at a time, or is it 3?

Can you comment on the MF / START naval radar? I had read that it can handle 12 targets simultaneously, with 2 missiles at each target if needed.

Hi @Carlosa,

The Mark 99 Illuminator can engage only a single target at a time, but it's only used for terminal guidance, or in other words "last second engagement". Multiple missiles can be airborne at any one time and the Mk 99 will be able to engage multiple targets near simultaneously because it doesn't need to illuminate a target except for when a missile enters terminal range. Because these times are very short, terminal range exists for less than a second on Navy missiles nearing their targets at mach 3+, the Mk 99 can engage many targets within a short time-frame.

This doesn't mean the AEGIS system can only engage one target or vector one missile, just that the Mk 99 can only illuminate one at a time, but that illumination time is really short and another target can be illuminated within instants of the previous.

Does this answer your question?

Source:

Part of it is from my professional experience with Navy systems, the other is from NAVAL RADARS (Military Weapons)

 

[Carlosa]

Hi @Carlosa,

The Mark 99 Illumination are engage only a single target at a time, but it's only used for terminal guidance, or in other words "last second engagement". Multiple missiles can be airborne at any one time and the Mk 99 will be able to engage multiple targets near simultaneously because it doesn't need to illuminate a target except for when a missile enters terminal range. Because these times are very short, terminal range exists for less than a second on Navy missiles, the Mk 99 can engage many targets within a short time-frame.

This doesn't mean the AEGIS system can only engage one target or vector one missile, just that the Mk 99 can only illuminate one at a time, but that illumination time is really short and another target can be illuminated within instants of the previous.

Does this answer your question?

Source:

Part of it is from my experience, the other is from NAVAL RADARS (Military Weapons)

Oh yes, very much, thank you; these are the type of answers that you can't find in wikipedia and its actually difficult to find them online.

Can you confirm how many illumination radars the AEGIS Burke ships carry, 3 or 4?

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Oh yes, very much, thank you; these are the type of answers that you can't find in wikipedia and its actually difficult to find them online.

Can you confirm how many illumination radars the AEGIS Burke ships carry, 3 or 4?

There are three Mk 80, SPG-62 radars (these are the illuminators) connected to the Mk 99 fire control system on a Burke Class Destroyer. Having three allows for rapid target engagement within very short period. It's near instantaneous.

However, this system is only used for SM-2 and another system guides SM-6 and SM-3.

 

[Carlosa]

There are three Mk 80, SPG-62 radars (these are the illuminators) connected to the Mk 99 fire control system on a Burke Class Destroyer.

However, this system is only used for SM-2 and another system guides SM-6 and SM-3.

Thank you, 1 at the front and 1 on each side.

So this means that there is a blind spot on the back unless the ship moves its position, correct?

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Thank you, 1 at the front and 1 on each side.

So this means that there is a blind spot on the back unless the ship moves its position, correct?

That I wont confirm. I'll just maintain the official Navy line and say that our ships are well protected and able to defend themselves from threats.

Can't give too many things away.

However, look for these and you'll find your answer;

This is an SPG-62 on DDG-55 Stout.

This is on DDG-81 Churchill.

@Carlosa - there's one covering all "necessary" areas.

 

[Carlosa]

That I wont confirm. I'll just maintain the official Navy line and say that our ships are well protected and able to defend themselves from threats.

Can't give too many things away.

However, look for these and you'll find your answer;

This is an SPG-62 on DDG-55 Stout.
View attachment 201707

This is on DDG-81 Churchill.
View attachment 201708

@Carlosa - there's on covering all "necessary" areas.

Ha ha, thank you, got it.

In your professional opinion, what do you think of naval air defense systems based on Aster 30 / Barak 8 when compared to AEGIS, like in the case of Kolkata destroyers?

 

[Superboy]

Everything on Kolkata except for sonar is imported from abroad. Can't India make by itself?

 

[Carlosa]

Everything on Kolkata except for sonar is imported from abroad. Can't India make by itself?

They have money to buy the best; does it make any difference in terms of the capability of the ship?

 

[500]

that's interesting, nice to know.

So different roles. That's interesting, since America doesn't really have a ship of this class, would you say they are lacking, or the cons out weight the pros?

I guess their strategy is simply not allow anyone close to fire salvos.

Very nice explanation, thank you.

The AEGIS can only handle 3 targets at the same time? Wow !!! That's a lot less than what I expected. That's big vulnerability in case of a saturation attack.

Yep. Aegis Air Defense System at Thirty | Defense Media Network

From some directions it can be even less: rear - 2, front - 1.

I was under the impression that AEGIS has 4 fire control radars, but I guess it has only 3 right? An each fire control radar can only handle 1 target at a time, or is it 3?

Ticonderoga had 4. But it hardly could use them all simultaneously.

Can you comment on the MF / START naval radar? I had read that it can handle 12 targets simultaneously, with 2 missiles at each target if needed.

Since it uses active seeker missiles and non rotating AESA I dont think there will be ever a problem with number of channels or guided missiles.

 

[Superboy]

They have money to buy the best; does it make any difference in terms of the capability of the ship?

Everything on Type 052D, from engines to electronics to weapons, is made in China. China does not lose money building Type 052Ds. India spends a lot of money to other countries when India builds Kolkatas. India isn't exactly a rich country either, has a lot of poverty to combat.

Plus, you can't use your hardware if you buy them from other countries. There will be sanctions. See Russia can't get Mistrals bought from France.

 

[Carlosa]

I guess their strategy is simply not allow anyone close to fire salvos.


Yep. Aegis Air Defense System at Thirty | Defense Media Network

From some directions it can be even less: rear - 2, front - 1.


Ticonderoga had 4. But it hardly could use them all simultaneously.

Since it uses active seeker missiles and non rotating AESA I dont think there will be ever a problem with number of channels or guided missiles.

Nice, thank you very much man. Myself, I'm a fan of MF / START - Barak 8 combination, I think its the most cost effective way of handling 360 degree air defense and missile saturation attacks.

And lets not even talk about David's Sling / Magic Wand.

Everything on Kolkata except for sonar is imported from abroad. Can't India make by itself?

No, not true, the Gun is made in India, The missiles are made in India, many of the sensors also, etc.

Everything on Type 052D, from engines to electronics to weapons, is made in China. China does not lose money building Type 052Ds. India spends a lot of money to other countries when India builds Kolkatas. India isn't exactly a rich country either, has a lot of poverty to combat.

Plus, you can't use your hardware if you buy them from other countries. There will be sanctions. See Russia can't get Mistrals bought from France.

What you called chinese is mainly Russian / Ukrainian copied by China.

India has no issues with sanctions because unlike "other countries", they are not aggressive and follow international law.

The Kolkata is 80% domestic built.

I guess their strategy is simply not allow anyone close to fire salvos.

That's very true, that has always been the American naval strategy, that's why they have the aircraft carries; the AWACS and the F-18s are the first line of defense hundreds of km away from the task force.

 

[500]

Nice, thank you very much man. Myself, I'm a fan of MF / START - Barak 8 combination, I think its the most cost effective way of handling 360 degree air defense and missile saturation attacks.

And lets not even talk about David's Sling / Magic Wand.

I wonder if its possible to install booster version of Barak 8 into Kolkata.

Basic variant is 455 cm long and 275 kg weight. Booster variant according my estimates will be about 635 cm long and 580 kg weight. I dont see a reason why it cant fit into a Kolkata. With booster it can have some 150 km range easily.

HQ-9 is 680 cm long and 1300 kg weight for comparison.

 

[Carlosa]

I wonder if its possible to install booster version of Barak 8 into Kolkata.

Basic variant is 455 cm long and 275 kg weight. Booster variant according my estimates will be about 635 cm long and 580 kg weight. I dont see a reason why it cant fit into a Kolkata. With booster it can have some 150 km range easily.

HQ-9 is 680 cm long and 1300 kg weight for comparison.

Yes, it is part of the plan, at least for the upcoming destroyers and possibly for the current ones since they have empty space for more VLS systems.

Barak 8 is a beast man.

Its very difficult to find info about Barak 8 ER (Indian name for Barak 8 booster version) online, if you have some links,please post.

HQ-9 is old tech, the old way to do air defense missiles, it does its job of course, but its old tech.

 

[BoQ77]

China does not lose money building Type 052Ds.

India isn't exactly a rich country either, has a lot of poverty to combat.

Really? No money?
China must struggle to fight poverty too. There are still hundred millions in poverty.