The conundrum of Pakistan's SAAB-2000 Erieye AWACS

[Safriz]

I am not sure if opening a thread on the matter is appropriate anymore,as the matter has been discussed to the bitter end,multiple times.I have posted the info in the main thread already,and reposting here for comments from senior members.
In most people's minds the confusion still exists,including myself. A serial number search reveled some interesting data which i am sharing here..If member have further knowledge of how to search for an aircraft by serial number/Call sign/Airframe number or any other data which appears in international Database,please do so and post results here...
I am not sure about the reliability of this data but here it is...

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Hello...
Can somebody comment on the credibility of this website?

It gives 5 diferent serial numbers of PAF's SAAB-2000 and says all 5 are "Active"..

Saab 2000 Production List - Planespotters.net Just Aviation

10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C 05-2010 Active SE-025
10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C 02-07-2010 Active SE-040
10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C 03-10-2011 Active SE-045
10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C 23-02-2010 Active SE-049
J-019 019 Saab 2000 AEW&C 26-09-2008 Active SE-019

Operator Aircraft List Pakistan - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
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Further history of Airframe search reveals..

SE-049 was previously F-GMVG and was operated by a French Airline from 1997-2001

SE-045 was previously LY-SBW and was operated by Lituanian airlines until 2009

SE-040 has no recorded History

SE-025 has no recorded history

SE-019 has no recorded history


That means at least two of the aircrafts are second hand....
All 5 are appearing as "Active" . That means none has been decommissioned or scrapped by PAF

On another search engine 10025 is appearing as "Stored" , meaning

Stored - Temporarily or permanently stored (withdrawn from use)

Total fleet of SAAB-2000
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Pakistan Gvmt.htm

Status of 10025

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Pakistan Gvmt-stored-s20.htm

Apparently the above data where it says all 5 are "Active" is for the Airframe only,meaning that none of the Airframes have been officially decommissioned or scrapped.

The second set of data where it says 4 in service and 1 stored is for the actual aircrafts..
4 are up and Running and one is "Stored" and currently non operational,and that is 10025.

Now if we join the dots,in the light of above data,it does look like one Erieye has been damaged,but not decommissioned,and under repair as it appears as "Stored".

Comments will be much appreciated

 

[SQ8]

Your conclusion is pretty astute, that aircraft may be stored for repairs..
VChengs reference to its pressure bulkhead may explain as to why its taking so long to fix if its just a damaged nose.

 

[Jango]

Not really realted with the state of the Saabs, but why are the aircraft showing as Pak government aircraft? Shouldn't they be with the airforce?

Secondly, their are some irregularities regarding the serial number of c/n 49 as well. Atleast one aircraft is starting with 09, while in the planespotters list, no aircraft is starting with 09.

The status of AP-BHJ has also been written as stored, even though it has been probably written off by PIA, and the serial number removed from aircraft along with the flag on the tail. This is usually done when a aircraft is written off. It is still sitting at Lahore airport on a lift frame.

AP-BHJ PIA Pakistan International Airlines ATR 42-500 - cn 657 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation

So stored might mean that aircraft not burnt to ashes, but still not flyworthy, and just lying around somewhere.

maybe aircraft are lying around for cannibalization, engines of P-3 were also stored by PN, and used further for spares etc.

 

[Safriz]

^^^ The above data appears on Multiple websites,and yes on some the serial number starts with 09 as you stated here...
The airline name comes as government of Pakistan may be because these aircrafts have been in civilian use since new and registered as Civil aircrafts and later converted to military use,same goes for Pakistan's Presidential plane,was a Qatar airways plane and now operated by PAF for VIP transport.
We don't see any info about the Military planes which are manufactured for the role in Military,they don't need to register anywhere,i suppose.
It depends on the registering Authority what name they want to give for their "Airline" and here the name Government of Pakistan was given instead of PAF.

From this data it does appear that only one planer was damaged as the official press release said.

For AP-BHJ it does say..

painted in "Sindh Province" special cs
Incident 31-08-2012 at LHE skidded off runway in heavy rain.

The thing i liked about this data was that apparently PAF has saved tons of money by using second hand planes for AWACS conversion instead of Buying Brand new.

 

[SQ8]

The thing i liked about this data was that apparently PAF has saved tons of money by using second hand planes for AWACS conversion instead of Buying Brand new.

That also may have to do with the fact that the SAAB-2000 has been out of production for a while and no new airframes were being built. The airlines that operated it were also phasing it out due to its commonality issues, so there were excess airframes available with very little in terms of airframe hours.

 

[Safriz]

10040 taking part in Saffron bandit 2013

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549

 

[Jango]

Conundrum solved...

Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang

Good day and good bye!

It was fun debating this all!

 

[SQ8]

Conundrum solved...

Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang

Good day and good bye!

It was fun debating this all!

Actually, the biggest issue is the definition of mukamal tabah.
The airframe in question is out of commission. Pressure bulkhead is gone and no replacement exists.
hence a total loss.
The Onboard equipment may be salvaged.

 

[Jango]

Actually, the biggest issue is the definition of mukamal tabah.
The airframe in question is out of commission. Pressure bulkhead is gone and no replacement exists.
hence a total loss.
The Onboard equipment may be salvaged.

Agreed.

One thing that is needed is to define pressure bulkhead. The rear bulkhead is the one that is easily replaceable while the forward has no bulkhead like the rear one. It is just the place where the fuselage joins...you cannot replace the forward one if there is a 5 foot hole in it...

We have been hearing that the ERIEYE system maybe put on J-019, but if there was fire (strong indications that there was a fire), then it is kind of hard to imagine that the ERIEYE radar could have survived the heat.

Engines, props, APU, some other systems might be salvageable though as with P-3's.

 

[SQ8]

Agreed.

One thing that is needed is to define pressure bulkhead. The rear bulkhead is the one that is easily replaceable while the forward has no bulkhead like the rear one. It is just the place where the fuselage joins...you cannot replace the forward one if there is a 5 foot hole in it...

We have been hearing that the ERIEYE system maybe put on J-019, but if there was fire (strong indications that there was a fire), then it is kind of hard to imagine that the ERIEYE radar could have survived the heat.

Engines, props, APU, some other systems might be salvageable though as with P-3's.

The radar may have..associate equipment may not have.
The fact that the PAF was still talking about fixing it and flying it out for repairs means that we may be looking at something like(but worse) than this

 

[Jango]

The radar may have..associate equipment may not have.
The fact that the PAF was still talking about fixing it and flying it out for repairs means that we may be looking at something like(but worse) than this

I always took that repair thing with a pinch of salt, because it was clear to alot of folks the very next day that it was destroyed. Maybe repair was being mentioned for a second aircraft.

As for the picture, this is nothing compared to what we are seeing. This is a plain birdstrike on the nose cone of the plane (not Saab) and perhaps some bits and pieces went to the radar. A simple enough job. What Saabs had to contend with was an explosion, a shockwave etc. That would be much more than a carbon fibre replacement!

 

[SQ8]

I always took that repair thing with a pinch of salt, because it was clear to alot of folks the very next day that it was destroyed. Maybe repair was being mentioned for a second aircraft.

As for the picture, this is nothing compared to what we are seeing. This is a plain birdstrike on the nose cone of the plane (not Saab) and perhaps some bits and pieces went to the radar. A simple enough job. What Saabs had to contend with was an explosion, a shockwave etc. That would be much more than a carbon fibre replacement!

Probably..
It is surprising.. that considering that the Erieyes are literally the most expensive asset and purchase by the PAF even when compared to the F-16s..that they were kept in that ramshackle shelter..

I remember going to PAF faisal a few month before the attack.. and the term "khala ji ka ghar" is an understatement.
I drove right thru all the way to the Base Commanders house without a hitch..
In fact.. the attacks were really really dumb.. They started firing from the start.. and acted stupidly.. If you have even the slightest amount of brains.. you could probably go all they way to each aircraft.. plant a bomb.. have a Malboro.. tea and samosa.. .leave the place.. and blow it all up .. without anyone noticing.

 

[Jango]

I remember going to PAF faisal a few month before the attack.. and the term "khala ji ka ghar" is an understatement.
I drove right thru all the way to the Base Commanders house without a hitch..
In fact.. the attacks were really really dumb.. They started firing from the start.. and acted stupidly.. If you have even the slightest amount of brains.. you could probably go all they way to each aircraft.. plant a bomb.. have a Malboro.. tea and samosa.. .leave the place.. and blow it all up .. without anyone noticing.

What makes you so sure they didn't have a cup of tea in the base?

Afterall, the TV report had to have some info to back it up!

 

[SQ8]

What makes you so sure they didn't have a cup of tea in the base?

Afterall, the TV report had to have some info to back it up!

Quite likely.. people think that the venerable "jawan" isnt prone to extremism when infact being the cannon fodder "dont think too much" types we have they are the most vulnerable.

 

[Jango]

Quite likely.. people think that the venerable "jawan" isnt prone to extremism when infact being the cannon fodder "dont think too much" types we have they are the most vulnerable.

...while action had been taken against army personnel involved in these attacks.

http://www.thenewstribe.com/2013/02...-attacked-since-2009-army-personnel-involved/

Well in the Kamra situation, it was just a case of 'Hubbul watni ka jazba' not coming into action initially!

Sepoy Asif may have lost his life after holding them off for 15 odd minutes, but the other guy went AWOL.

So a cup of tea wasn't really that tough to get a hold of!