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The Atlantique Incident.

And that is why on Feb 27, more indian jets should have been shot down. Justice was not done for the Atlantique crew because all of a sudden, the PAF's top brass decided to show "mercy" to these pathetic people in the East.
 
PN was not as innocent in this tragedy as most would like to think. There is an air corridor from Karachi to Bhuj used by commercial airlines. At the stage where they cross over to India, the planes fly relatively slow. PN Atlantiques used to fly very close, right behind a commercial flight into India in order to avoid a radar signature. These were Sigint/Rece. flights over Indian territory. Indian knew about them for many years but could not do anything about it. Once trying to get the Atlantique they almost shot down a commercial airplane.
 
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@Telescopic Sight
Your thread topic is open again

Thanks for letting me know about this thread. Appreciate it.

I posted that earlier thread with absolutely no bias . Once a soldier dies, he deserves only respect. I maintained that tone thoughout my post.

Unfortunately , dark inner feelings amongst many Pakistani members that have been, and continue to be, repressed came tumbling out , esp. 1 particular mod who locked me out of my thread .

All I can say is , if there are Pakistanis themselves don't think those 16 navy personnel deserve to be named AND remembered.... their loss

@SQ8 : My Bulgarian co-worker actually visited the Maritime Museum at Karachi some 10 years ago. After reading your statement about the 16 names being put up there, I asked him to recheck his extensive album. He could not find any such display. Knowing him, I'd wager he is correct.
 
No nation has a monopoly of virtue, no nation has a monopoly of mindless cruelty.

I read the earlier thread with increasing distress at the remarks and comments; the thread was thankfully closed by @The Eagle, and I ignored his closing remarks and those of @SQ8, both figures whom I respect very highly, as occasioned by the malice of the OP.

@niaz Sahib's post above reaffirmed the veneration I bear the man, and my reverence for his moral courage.

For those of you who have commented, I ask you to read the account below. Another pilot did what Bundela was ordered to do; he was not Indian. He shot down a civilian plane, not one with military markings; he shot down the plane far outside his own territory, not on the border. Try, if you can, to retain some humanity in your posts, if not in your feelings.

Pak Pilot's Remorse for 1965 Shooting of Indian Plane

ISLAMABAD / REZAUL H LASKAR


Almost half-a-century after he shot down an Indian civilian aircraft carrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has apologised to the daughter of the pilot of the downed plane, saying he was "not a trigger-happy person" and this happened in the line of duty during the 1965 war.

Qais Hussain was a rookie Flying Officer during the 1965 war when he shot down the Beechcraft piloted by distinguished ex-Indian Air Force pilot Jehangir Engineer.

Besides Engineer and the then Gujarat Chief Minister Balwantrai Mehta, the Chief Minister's wife Sarojben Mehta, three members of his personal staff, a crew member and a reporter of the Gujarat Samachar were killed in the incident.

Hussain, who wrote an e-mail to Engineer's daughter, decided to explain his side of the story after PAF officer-turned-blogger Kaiser Tufail researched the incident and concluded that Pakistani officials had wrongly surmised that the Indian aircraft was on a surveillance mission.

"We were at war at the time and the initial impression after I shot down the aircraft was that we had been able to eliminate a new front. We were all very happy and I got a pat on the back from my colleagues," Hussain, 70, told PTI.

Referring to the incident of September 19, 1965, Hussain said: "This happened at about 4 pm. At 7 pm, All India Radio announced the aircraft that was shot down was carrying the Chief Minister and our mood became very sombre. We all repented what had happened but the event fell by the wayside."

After Air Commodore (Retd) Kaiser Tufail researched the incident and wrote a piece on it for his blog in April, Hussain said he was spurred to convey his condolences to the families of those who died when he shot down the Beechcraft.

"I thought it was better late than never. I'm happy to have been able to do something. I wanted to say that I was not a trigger-happy person and this happened in the confusion of war," he said.

Thanks to the efforts of Naveed Riaz, a Lahore-based businessman and aviation enthusiast, and Indian military aviation expert Jagan Pillarisetti, Hussain got the email address of Jehangir 'Jungoo' Engineer's daughter Farida Singh and wrote to her on August 5.

"If an opportunity ever arises that I could meet you face to face to condole the death of your father 46 years back, I would grab it with both hands. I would highly appreciate if you please convey my feelings to the other members of your family, who were equally hurt by the untimely departure of Jungoo to the next world," Hussain wrote in his email.

He explained he had acted only after he was ordered to shoot down the Indian aircraft by his controller, who had mistakenly concluded that the Beechcraft was on a surveillance mission.

"Your father spotted my presence immediately and he started climbing and waggling his wings seeking mercy. Instead of firing at him at first sight, I relayed to my controller that I had intercepted an eight-seat transport aircraft (guessing by the four side windows) and wanted further instructions to deal with it," Hussain wrote in his email.

"At the same time, I was hoping that I would be called back without firing a shot. There was a lapse of three to four long minutes before I was given clear orders to shoot the aircraft," wrote Hussain, who left the PAF three years after the incident.


Kindly take a look at (PAF) Flying Officer Qais Hussain's subsequent clarification.

Perhaps a tad less remorse and apology than you might assume :

PAF pilot says he did not apologise

https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/...t-says-he-did-not-apologise-only-shared-grief


"The Indian media has interpreted my goodwill gesture as an apology and repentance despite the fact that there is no such thing in my letter......To be candid and frank, I never paid much attention to what had happened during the course of 65 war and have lived a normal life ever since."

How classy! Truly embodies the chivalrous spirit of combat aviation. Definitely NOT a war crime to shoot down a civilian registered passenger plane !!
Beech18takeoffBF_%281012941995%29.jpg



DOES THIS LOOK LIKE AN AIR FORCE FIGHTER PLANE ?

On a separate note , " Malice of the OP" refers to me ? And my so-called malice occasioned all the drivel that ended the previous thread ? I am genuinely taken aback.
 
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PN was not as innocent in this tragedy as most would like to think. There is an air corridor from Karachi to Bhuj used by commercial airlines. At the stage where they cross over to India, the planes fly relatively slow. PN Atlantiques used to fly very close, right behind a commercial flight into India in order to avoid a radar signature. These were Sigint/Rece. flights over Indian territory. Indian knew about them for many years but could not do anything about it. Once trying to get the Atlantique they almost shot down a commercial airplane.

Aircraft squack IFF codes of civil airliners when they need to hide. Indians used to do it all the time when violating our borders.
 
On a side note.....

The indians sent couple of helicopters into our area, at the crash site, in order to grab some debris.... In order to show the world that it had crashed on their side.....

These helicopters were engaged by our RBS 70s which missed since these helos were flying nap of the earth tactics.... They then managed to grab some debris and lifted off before our PN Marines could arrive there...

Interestingly, for OBVIOUS REASONS, they made a video of this debris grabbing as well.... For record purposes...

It was touted as a major intelligence coup for Pakistan since Pak intelligence managed to whisk away that video from INSIDE INDIA within couple of days... The same video was then shown on our national TV channels to show the world what Indians had done.

If luck would have been on our side, couple of Indian helicopters would have been downed.
 
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They Indians were quick to attack a slow moving unarmed aircraft the size of an airliner but we all saw how they fair when faced by the PAF and through sheer panic score own bullseye. The same fear and panic caused them to lose two more jets during the same period after the above incident.

In August 1999, Indian .Pakistan hostilities were at a peak, a PN Atlantique aircraft had been shot down by India and the tension on the borders was described as at at knife edge. There were constant air patrols, each side was monitoring the other around the clock resulting in aircraft being constantly scrambled. One of these resulted in two IAF MiG-21s being scrambled from an airfield in Indian occupied Kashmir, in the heat of the moment, while baring down the runway, No 2 MiG got caught in the leaders slipstream and began losing control and it's pilot proceeded to eject, the Indian air controller watching panicked and gave the call for eject without referring to No2, the MiG leader who was by this time airborne assumed that the call is for him so he also promptly proceeded to eject.
Whether an air violation by the PAF materialized on that day or not but it certainly caused the IAF the loss of two aircraft....some sources describe it as the cheapest kill of the conflict.


18th August 1999
india,0.gif

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.2 in a two aircraft take off. Pilot was too close to No.1 and lost control in the slipstream and crashed after take off. ATC called out for him to eject. No1 in the formation responded to the wrong call and ejected Flying Officer G S Dhindsar

18th August 1999
india,0.gif

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB. Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.1 in a two aircraft take off. Responded to a misguided 'Eject' Call given by the ATC to Flying Officer Dhindsar who was the No.2 Flight Lieutenant K S Deswal
if it happens, there should be a tit for tat
having said soft targets should not fly within striking distance, i.e 50-75 km from boarder
 
They Indians were quick to attack a slow moving unarmed aircraft the size of an airliner but we all saw how they fair when faced by the PAF and through sheer panic score own bullseye. The same fear and panic caused them to lose two more jets during the same period after the above incident.

In August 1999, Indian .Pakistan hostilities were at a peak, a PN Atlantique aircraft had been shot down by India and the tension on the borders was described as at at knife edge. There were constant air patrols, each side was monitoring the other around the clock resulting in aircraft being constantly scrambled. One of these resulted in two IAF MiG-21s being scrambled from an airfield in Indian occupied Kashmir, in the heat of the moment, while baring down the runway, No 2 MiG got caught in the leaders slipstream and began losing control and it's pilot proceeded to eject, the Indian air controller watching panicked and gave the call for eject without referring to No2, the MiG leader who was by this time airborne assumed that the call is for him so he also promptly proceeded to eject.
Whether an air violation by the PAF materialized on that day or not but it certainly caused the IAF the loss of two aircraft....some sources describe it as the cheapest kill of the conflict.


18th August 1999
india,0.gif

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.2 in a two aircraft take off. Pilot was too close to No.1 and lost control in the slipstream and crashed after take off. ATC called out for him to eject. No1 in the formation responded to the wrong call and ejected Flying Officer G S Dhindsar

18th August 1999
india,0.gif

Indian A. F. MiG-21Bis Srinagar AFB. Take Off from Srinagar AFB No.1 in a two aircraft take off. Responded to a misguided 'Eject' Call given by the ATC to Flying Officer Dhindsar who was the No.2 Flight Lieutenant K S Deswal
hahhahahahhahaahhahha this is hilarious and utterly amusing how stupid Indiots are
 
Interestingly, for OBVIOUS REASONS, they made a video of this debris grabbing as well.... For record purposes...

It was touted as a major intelligence coup for Pakistan since Pak intelligence managed to whisk away that video from INSIDE INDIA within couple of days... The same video was then shown on our national TV channels to show the world what Indians had done.

If luck would have been on our side, couple of Indian helicopters would have been downed.


We seem to be remembering this video clip differently. I have a distinct memory of seeing this clip released the next day on Govt. owned TV channel, Doordarshan.

I have never even heard of any spy stuff related to this incident.

About the helicopters, it would have been a shame to shoot them down , since they carried only reporters from Indian and foreign channels. Would be as repulsive as shooting down the civilian plane of the GUJ. Chief Minister , no?
 
About the helicopters, it would have been a shame to shoot them down , since they carried only reporters from Indian and foreign channels. Would be as repulsive as shooting down the civilian plane of the GUJ. Chief Minister , no?

Those were military helicopters. Ground troops had no idea that whether there are troops inside or unarmed reporters.
 
@Joe Shearer don
@Irfan Baloch
@PakFactor
@MM_Haider
@blueazure
@Falcon26
@Areesh

No nation has a monopoly of virtue, no nation has a monopoly of mindless cruelty.

I read the earlier thread with increasing distress at the remarks and comments; the thread was thankfully closed by @The Eagle, and I ignored his closing remarks and those of @SQ8, both figures whom I respect very highly, as occasioned by the malice of the OP.

@niaz Sahib's post above reaffirmed the veneration I bear the man, and my reverence for his moral courage.

For those of you who have commented, I ask you to read the account below. Another pilot did what Bundela was ordered to do; he was not Indian. He shot down a civilian plane, not one with military markings; he shot down the plane far outside his own territory, not on the border. Try, if you can, to retain some humanity in your posts, if not in your feelings.

Pak Pilot's Remorse for 1965 Shooting of Indian Plane

ISLAMABAD / REZAUL H LASKAR



Almost half-a-century after he shot down an Indian civilian aircraft carrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has apologised to the daughter of the pilot of the downed plane, saying he was "not a trigger-happy person" and this happened in the line of duty during the 1965 war.

Qais Hussain was a rookie Flying Officer during the 1965 war when he shot down the Beechcraft piloted by distinguished ex-Indian Air Force pilot Jehangir Engineer.

Besides Engineer and the then Gujarat Chief Minister Balwantrai Mehta, the Chief Minister's wife Sarojben Mehta, three members of his personal staff, a crew member and a reporter of the Gujarat Samachar were killed in the incident.

Hussain, who wrote an e-mail to Engineer's daughter, decided to explain his side of the story after PAF officer-turned-blogger Kaiser Tufail researched the incident and concluded that Pakistani officials had wrongly surmised that the Indian aircraft was on a surveillance mission.

"We were at war at the time and the initial impression after I shot down the aircraft was that we had been able to eliminate a new front. We were all very happy and I got a pat on the back from my colleagues," Hussain, 70, told PTI.

Referring to the incident of September 19, 1965, Hussain said: "This happened at about 4 pm. At 7 pm, All India Radio announced the aircraft that was shot down was carrying the Chief Minister and our mood became very sombre. We all repented what had happened but the event fell by the wayside."

After Air Commodore (Retd) Kaiser Tufail researched the incident and wrote a piece on it for his blog in April, Hussain said he was spurred to convey his condolences to the families of those who died when he shot down the Beechcraft.

"I thought it was better late than never. I'm happy to have been able to do something. I wanted to say that I was not a trigger-happy person and this happened in the confusion of war," he said.

Thanks to the efforts of Naveed Riaz, a Lahore-based businessman and aviation enthusiast, and Indian military aviation expert Jagan Pillarisetti, Hussain got the email address of Jehangir 'Jungoo' Engineer's daughter Farida Singh and wrote to her on August 5.

"If an opportunity ever arises that I could meet you face to face to condole the death of your father 46 years back, I would grab it with both hands. I would highly appreciate if you please convey my feelings to the other members of your family, who were equally hurt by the untimely departure of Jungoo to the next world," Hussain wrote in his email.

He explained he had acted only after he was ordered to shoot down the Indian aircraft by his controller, who had mistakenly concluded that the Beechcraft was on a surveillance mission.

"Your father spotted my presence immediately and he started climbing and waggling his wings seeking mercy. Instead of firing at him at first sight, I relayed to my controller that I had intercepted an eight-seat transport aircraft (guessing by the four side windows) and wanted further instructions to deal with it," Hussain wrote in his email.

"At the same time, I was hoping that I would be called back without firing a shot. There was a lapse of three to four long minutes before I was given clear orders to shoot the aircraft," wrote Hussain, who left the PAF three years after the incident.

Though Mr Hussain took the orders and implemented but he never boasted on that and later written the letter to the daughter of deceased CM and apologised.
The Indian pilot was from another breed and I believe that he met his fate justifiably.
 

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