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Thar coal - too little, too late

Nope, liquefy coal uses low grade coal that cannot be sold due to its low grade, this is why businesses try to make it liquefied so that it can have good burning rate like high grade coal and cleaner like gas as well, thus making it tradable. The coal is cheap and currently become idle stock/reserve. The production waste is also quite valuable if it is processed further which can become a very important material to make solar panel.
No you are wrong.

There are several kinds of Coal liquefaction, Indirect conversion processes and Direct conversion processes. China invested all kinds of them, not ideal at all. Very costly, and need huge subsidies.




Pakistan Thar coalfield is mostly lignite, not suitable for liquefaction. Lignite is one the worst coal you want to deal with for liquefaction, better burn it.

China invested coal gasify for lignite, failed. 大唐国际克什克腾煤制天然气

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Literally, there is no better coal plant than this one. Highest efficiency, lowest pollution. Nothing is pollution free, even solar panel is completely chemical industry in the factory.
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What pollution to be specific? China coal plant use Ultra-supercritical steam generator , the highest in the world literally.

The sulphur, Nitrogen oxide and dust has been filtered out. The exhaust is very clean unless you believe CO2 is pollution.

Pakistan best energy source is coal and Hydropower, others such as solar and wind is unstable. You won't have sunlight in the night, while wind is unpredictable.

The pollution of coal mining is manageable. It's a management problem other than technology.

To think coal is dirty, just western bull$hit. Yes, coal burning generated more CO2, but so what? Pakistan carbon emissions still much lower than Europeans and Americans, much lower.

Literally, you can't find better coal plant, I believe Pakistan tried to shop around
View attachment 707046


Good post.
 
I am sorry but this is such an idiotic article by some illiterate. It is pure propaganda. Here are the very first basic questions - What types of coal is Thar producing?? Is it Coking coal or Thermal coke or a combination of both??

Coking coal is used for the production of steel, and it is cheap resource for steel production. Thermal coal can still be very effectively used for power generation and with very good pollution control strategy. People need to understand the concept of "Base Grid Electricity". Renewable energy can NEVER BE BASE GRID ELECTRICITY source. Only coal, nuclear, gas, etc are base electricity resources.
You are absolutely right, and that's the problem of a lot of members here.

A lot of members here embraced climate change, fine. But they must understand Pakistan reality firstly --- lack of oil, lack of foreign exchange.

The thing is, Pakistan should use unlimited Thar coal, so that you can be energy free, energy independence.

Second, Thar coal is lignite, which is not suitable for liquefaction.

Third, China tried, invested all kind of coal liquefaction, gasification, huge subsidies, very costly. and by the way, used the best coal, not lignite at all.

Coal liquefaction is very energy costly, huge amount of fresh water. Literally 7-8 tons of water for 1 tons of liquefied coal. more than $80 per barrel.

Base energy can only be either nuclear, or coal plant, natural gas plant, or hydropower station.

Solar, wind is unreliable at all.

So many members are biased and no clue on energy.

Some complained about The China Ultra-supercritical steam generator pollution, speechless. Solar is very polluted chemical industry in the factory. The pollution is more management problem than technology.
 
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No you are wrong.

There are several kinds of Coal liquefaction, Indirect conversion processes and Direct conversion processes. China invested all kinds of them, not ideal at all. Very costly, and need huge subsidies.




Pakistan Thar coalfield is mostly lignite, not suitable for liquefaction. Lignite is one the worst coal you want to deal with for liquefaction, better burn it.

China invested coal gasify for lignite, failed. 大唐国际克什克腾煤制天然气

View attachment 707057

Literally, there is no better coal plant than this one. Highest efficiency, lowest pollution. Nothing is pollution free, even solar panel is completely chemical industry in the factory.
View attachment 707058

Why do you say I am wrong ? I try to correct you who said that gasification of coal use high grade of coal which is not true. Why do we need to turn it into methanol where they are already efficient enough and the price is quite economical. The reason of why gasification is needed is to bring the low grade coal into efficient energy sources which currently that low grade coal is still an idle reserve since no one wants to buy it.

Yup, it is right that the production is still facing some problem where some expert said it is not economical enough as a business project. Despite so, the production waste is very valuable though to become main material to produce solar panel and I also have said it in my previous post.
 
You are absolutely right, and that's the problem of a lot of members here.

A lot of members here embraced climate change, fine. But they must understand Pakistan reality firstly --- lack of oil, lack of foreign exchange.

The thing is, Pakistan should use unlimited Thar coal, so that you can be energy free, energy indepence.

Second, Thar coal is lignite, which is not suitable for liquefaction.

Third, China tried, invested all kind of coal liquefaction, gasification, huge subsidies, very costly. and by the way, used the best coal, not lignite at all.

Coal liquefaction is very energy costly, huge amount of fresh water. Literally 7-8 tons of water for 1 tons of liquefied coal. more than $80 per barrel.

Base energy can only be either nuclear, or coal plant, natural gas plant, or hydropower station.

Solar, wind is unreliable at all.

So many members are biased and no clue on energy.

Some complained about The China Ultra-supercritical steam generator pollution, speechless. Solar is very polluted chemical industry in the factory. The pollution is more management problem than technology.

Totally agree ! For a poor country like Pakistan, this coal is God's gift. Pakistan needs to use it as much as possible.
On a side note, Just imagine a scenario, as an example, where today all power generation in Pakistan is replaced with Solar. Now just imagine due to rain, there is no sun for one week. Large parts of Pakistan will be in dark for one week with these people, specially the greenies, scratching their arses due to boredom. :lol:
 
Why do you say I am wrong ? I try to correct you who said that gasification of coal use high grade of coal which is not true. Why do we need to turn it into methanol where they are already efficient enough and the price is quite economical. The reason of why gasification is needed is to bring the low grade coal into efficient energy sources which currently that low grade coal is still an idle reserve since no one wants to buy it.

Yup, it is right that the production is still facing some problem where some expert said it is not economical enough as a business project. Despite so, the production waste is very valuable though to become main material to produce solar panel and I also have said it in my previous post.
I am tired on explanation of technical issues.
I am not expert, but I studied and did my research several years ago on coal liquefaction, gasification.

Those materials are in Chinese, I hate to spend too much for translation. You can search around.

China literally built the most coal liquefaction, gasification plant in the world, spent tens of billions of dollars. Reason is simple, we are prepared for a real war scenario, which oil import can be affected.


Coal liquefaction, gasification is very costly and complex, no one ever made a penny from it.

Nazi Germany is the first to develop coal liquefaction back in 1940s, because of world war 2.

South Africa developed coal liquefaction, because of nuclear weapon development and sanctions.

China developed coal liquefaction for energy independence, and war scenarios with US.

No one ever made a penny from those plant, huge subsidies.

It sounds good, but reality is ugly.

Unless you would like to sacrifice tens of billions of USD for subsidies, and prepared all those technologies needed, don't do it.

China can provide Pakistan coal liquefaction plant, but Thar is lignite, not good.
 
Totally agree ! For a poor country like Pakistan, this coal is God's gift. Pakistan needs to use it as much as possible.
On a side note, Just imagine a scenario, as an example, where today all power generation in Pakistan is replaced with Solar. Now just imagine due to rain, there is no sun for one week. Large parts of Pakistan will be in dark for one week with these people, specially the greenies, scratching their arses due to boredom. :lol:

Solar panel will be quite efficient and cheap IMO in the future. Actually I dont talk about mega solar project, but solar panel that can be put into the roof top. Just imagine if every houses have solar panel in their roof top that can provide enough electricity for the house needs plus their electric cars. While, mega solar panel project that we see being made by countries Today need alot of land and I think it is only efficient if we use floating solar panel in the dam or solar panel that being put in the desert.

Anyway, there will be battery, so they can store the energy. 20 years from now I would say tropical countries will have greater economic advantage than countries that has cold weather. Coal and Gas power plant will still likely there in future but their contribution will be likely very less than current one and only important for factory, electric train, high office building and so on, while household will likely be self sufficient.
 
Solar panel will be quite efficient and cheap IMO in the future. Actually I dont talk about mega solar project, but solar panel that can be put into the roof top. Just imagine if every houses have solar panel in their roof top that can provide enough electricity for the house needs plus their electric cars. While, mega solar panel project that we see being made by countries Today need alot of land and I think it is only efficient if we use floating solar panel in the dam or solar panel that being put in the desert.

Anyway, there will be battery, so they can store the energy. 20 years from now I would say tropical countries will have greater economic advantage than countries that has cold weather. Coal and Gas power plant will still likely there in future but their contribution will be likely very less than current one and only important for factory, electric train, high office building and so on, while household will likely be self sufficient.
Family electricity consumption is a tiny portion of total usage in China. Only 1/7.

While total electricity consumption is only half of total energy consumption in China. There are many other energy consumptions, such as cement industries, steel industries, car industries.

China has brought about 40 gigawatts (GW) of new solar power into operation in 2020, taking its total installed solar capacity to 240 GW. But only 3.1% of the 7482 TWh of electricity produced in 2019.

So your bet on solar panel and battery is not feasible. The needs and supply gap is so huge, solar panel can only provide a very small portion of energy needs. Battery is not cheap at all.

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https://www.reuters.com/article/chi...wth-hits-40-gw-in-2020-official-idUSL1N2IQ0HJ


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Yes, but that 2014 document was ceased by NEPRA in 2017. That estimate for scaling may no longer hold true.


There is a difference between exploiting anthracite versus lignite B just on the energy content, among other factors. As I pointed out above, it may never make economic sense, but perhaps Pakistan may wish to develop Thar coal anyway for its perceived strategic benefits by having a domestic energy source.
Germany coal is inferior to thar..this is well known ..do some reading please..you are well educated

Germany 27% of power came form LIGNITE B
The sulfur content of thar is also lower rather the mositure content is higher
Solar panel will be quite efficient and cheap IMO in the future. Actually I dont talk about mega solar project, but solar panel that can be put into the roof top. Just imagine if every houses have solar panel in their roof top that can provide enough electricity for the house needs plus their electric cars. While, mega solar panel project that we see being made by countries Today need alot of land and I think it is only efficient if we use floating solar panel in the dam or solar panel that being put in the desert.

Anyway, there will be battery, so they can store the energy. 20 years from now I would say tropical countries will have greater economic advantage than countries that has cold weather. Coal and Gas power plant will still likely there in future but their contribution will be likely very less than current one and only important for factory, electric train, high office building and so on, while household will likely be self sufficient.
Battery technology isnt moving

However solar may work with other from of energy storage like pump air or pump hydro
 
Germany coal is inferior to thar..this is well known ..do some reading please..you are well educated

Germany 27% of power came form LIGNITE B
The sulfur content of thar is also lower rather the mositure content is higher

Germany is phasing out its coal powerplants. and their lignite is not B grade.

Pakistan of course is free to develop its resources as it sees fit. It has tried to exploit Thar reserves by underground gasification and failed. The present endeavor may not be on a sound financial basis given its low energy content, but it can certainly deliver useful amounts of energy to the national grid. What eventually happens with the reserves will be clear soon enough. We can discuss it further at that time.
 
Germany is phasing out its coal powerplants. and their lignite is not B grade.

Pakistan of course is free to develop its resources as it sees fit. It has tried to exploit Thar reserves by underground gasification and failed. The present endeavor may not be on a sound financial basis given its low energy content, but it can certainly deliver useful amounts of energy to the national grid. What eventually happens with the reserves will be clear soon enough. We can discuss it further at that time.
Denying facts?
Both thar and gemrany -greece use lignite A-B with thar having lower sulphur content
These facts are widely available on google and offical reports..if you dont know how to do literature research i can post it for you

Germany is phasing out ..WTF..2038..that is the date..the third world shoild sue germany...!!! it is world second biggest economy they shouldnt phase out..they should STOP NOW
Germany using lignite even for another day is a crime against thrid world countries
 
Incorrect figures. Thar coal cost is now reduced to 32 dollars per ton.


Thar coal - too little, too late

In most countries, coal production may be phased out by 2050



SYED AKHTAR ALI
January 10, 2021

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ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Imran Khan has recently announced that there will be no more coal-based power plants in Pakistan.
International climate lobbies have welcomed the statement but domestic energy circles or at least parts of them are not happy. Many people believe that Pakistan’s carbon footprint is too little and say we have vast coal reserves in Thar, which we have only begun to exploit and a lot needs to be done in this respect.

The statement may be corrected or adjusted in coming days on technical advice from other parts of the government. It appears that, under a misguided enthusiasm of our climate lobby and the ministry, the PM made the statement under international pressure against coal.

But there is a background to it as well – mounting circular debt of Rs2.3 trillion and high cost of power generation, of which coal including Thar coal is a major part. Had there been earnings and savings, he may have had some hesitation.

We will elaborate in this space on three aspects of Thar coal – too little, too late and too expensive. Coal, admittedly, is a dirty fuel and contributes to the carbon footprint. On the other hand, even to date, coal is generating more than 33% of electricity around the world.

Both our friend China and foe India are the two largest producers and consumers of coal. But both have announced they will reduce their reliance on coal.

China plans to reduce it from 70% to 50% in 2025. Similar statements have emanated from the Indian side. India’s large solar and wind power plans somehow support this.

UN secretary general has recently made the following statement: There must be no new coal and all existing coal in the EU should be phased out by 2030 and elsewhere by 2040. He has urged that all coal financing must end. It appears that in most coal-committed countries, coal will be phased out by 2050.



Production cost

Indeed, we have started late on coal. India started with its lignite in the 1950s and its Thar lignite in 1970. Pakistan ignored and delayed Thar coal and finally agreed on an expensive proposal after rejecting a cheaper offer from China.

The same Chinese company has agreed recently to cooperate in building a coal-to-diesel plant under the CPEC framework. Current production cost of Thar coal is $61 per ton, more than twice the international cost of similar coal under comparable geological and mining conditions like stripping ratio, water and chemical composition.

Similarly, Thar coal-based electricity is 40% expensive than elsewhere and equals in cost with imported coal-power plants, which produce at 8.5 US cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh). Problems are not in Thar coal itself. It is as good as its counterparts elsewhere in the world in terms of properties. The problem has been in management and policy.

High capital expenditure, zero equity syndrome, high interest rates and unseen return on equity (ROE) of 20% have led to the excessive cost. Unless and until these are corrected, Thar coal can never become competitive. All recent studies have demanded this.

A Chinese team has recently submitted its report, recommending reduction in Thar coal cost by 50% if coal-to-diesel production has to be made viable. Locally, Hub Power has made similar demands for conversion of its oil-based power plant into Thar coal. Infant industry support argument does not apply. Indians are producing electricity from the same coal at half the cost and similar volumes, across the border a few hundred kilometres away.

Nothing extraordinary has been done. Mining projects are undertaken in far-off places like Thar and not in urban neighbourhoods. Thus, all the arguments defending high cost do not stay the test of scientific inquiry. Had Thar coal been produced at a reasonable cost, it would have been received with much more enthusiasm and optimism.
Now, solar power has come with 2 US cents per kWh and storage cost falling by the day. In the medium term, solar will not cost more than 4 cents including storage cost. This will further dilute the attractiveness of Thar coal.


Already, there are people heavily in favour of solar power as opposed to any other form of energy. Solar energy may even push hydroelectric power behind, if distributed generation catches on and storage issues are resolved. Thus, Thar coal is late in the day. We started too little as well. We have 3,300 megawatts of imported coal-based capacity installed recently and more imported capacity in the pipeline. Sindh government, initially, wasted time in power tussle and then manoeuvred to get an unreasonable ROE of 20%. The Sindh government is a partner with 51% equity in the SECMC project.



Greenhouse gases

The world order is committed to reducing the carbon footprint. Pakistan is going to be among seven countries with worst consequences, although its contribution to greenhouse gases is minimal due to a very low degree of development, besides we have social issues of hunger and poverty.

World may be giving us some consideration but not a lot and not too far in time. We are too much dependent on international order and support.

We have a highly dependent and unsustainable economy. Despite remittances of $20 billion (based on poor labourers’ toil), we are perpetually in current account deficit and have to frequently knock at the IMF’s door. It would be very difficult to defy the world order and policies. The least that can be expected is trade restrictions, taxation and incentives.

There are other issues and difficulties in Thar coal transport, water requirement and transmission of electricity to far-off places where there is demand.

Pakistan is destined to become a water-stressed country, which is the last category in water resource classification. Pakistan would have to be careful in the choice of water-consuming technologies and even crops like sugarcane and rice. Thus, there are multi-dimensional aspects which should be kept in mind. I am sure bureaucracy would be working on the right elaboration of PM’s statement. So as not to apply to the planned (20,000MW) or/and under-implementation projects (8,000MW).

Another possible adjustment may be that the statement wouldn’t apply to coal gasification, which is partially clean. It appears that coal (Thar)-based capacity may not be able to go beyond 8,000-20,000MW.

To those who like coal and love Thar coal and are associated with it in some way, my suggestion would be to correct the inadequacies that have been indicated in the foregoing and bring in competition and efficiency.

The tragedy is that Thar has estimated reserves of 185 billion tons of coal that will last for centuries and too little of it would be exploited.

World has been using coal for the last two centuries. But this is going to be the fate in most countries which have more coal resources than we have – the US, China, India, Australia – and of better quality than our lignite.
We have abundant alternative energy resources as well – solar, wind and other bio-resources. Skies would not cry, if Thar coal is not utilised to the full.

The writer is former member energy of the Planning Commission



Published in The Express Tribune, January 11th, 2021.
 
Make oil out of it

Even if its costly you are putting money into own country not spending it on import.
 

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