Terrorist and killer Narendra Modi on TIME 2012 list is a shame

[Bhairava]

[*]The New York Times' Celia Dugger reported that witnesses were "dismayed by the lack of intervention from local police", who often "watched the events taking place and took no action against the attacks on Muslims and their property";
[*]Human Rights Watch reported that in some cases members of the state police force led rioting mobs, "aiming and firing at every Muslim who got in the way", or instead of offering assistance "led the victims directly into the hands of their killers;"
[*]Calls for assistance to the police, fire brigades, and even ambulance services generally proved futile;

Another popular urban myth - that the Gujarat police were aiding and abetting Hindus. On the contrary:

”A series of attacks on policemen by Muslims has further added to the lack of faith. Now, strapped with the anti-Muslim label, the police has been slow in acting against Muslim fanatics”.

http://archives.digitaltoday.in/indiatoday/20020520/states2.html

Police intervention meant another 2,500 (Muslims) were spared a savage death (in Sanjeli).

India Today

Most of those killed in police firings and those who were taken into preventive custody were Hindus.

More fall prey to police firings in Gujarat - The Times of India

And in some places the police even turned a blind eye to the frantic calls from Hindus fearing they will be labelled anti-Muslim by the media.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-04.htm

So all in all, Yes, in some places the police partisan, but that was not because they were instructed to do so my Modi..but because they were also humans and a sense of revenge consumed them too.

[*]The Gujarat state government was reprimanded immediately for failing to prevent the riots, but then increasingly for actively fomenting and participating in it, which was a far more serious charge. Critiques came repeatedly from the Supreme Court, and the upper house of the Indian parliament unanimously passed a resolution calling for federal intervention in Gujarat; a similar censure motion in the lower house was defeated by about 100 votes;

[*]The Indian Supreme Court has been strongly critical of the state government's investigation and prosecution of those accused of violence during the riots, directing police to review about 2,000 of the 4,000 riot related cases that had been closed citing lack of evidence or leads.[/LIST]

....critiques from self-declared activists like Setalvad, Harsh Mander etc which carry no credibility whatsoever considering their own prejudice. No where has the Supreme Court criticized Narendra Modi govt for fomenting the riots or participating in it.

In short all the points you are making to criticize Modi are based on hearsay, prejudice,uncredible sources and not based on solid proof that would stand scrutiny in a court of law.

p.s.:- I hope I have answered all your accusations/allegations against Modi..But honstly I dont think it will sway your mind. But it will atleast help the other readers to sift propaganda from truth and see the truth for what it is, and not what they are fed through mouthpieces of certain parties like IBNLive or NDTV.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again sir, I want to tell i hardly knows RSS .... this is exactly what our Secular Thekadaar do if some one raises their put their views which is contrary to secular mindset like you they will you label us RSS followers..... I never followed RSS ever in my life...

If you are not aware of being an RSS supporter, you are doing so unawares.

Even the term Secular Thekadaar comes from them, it is not a commonplace usually encountered term.

 

[Bhairava]

In any other nation, such serious accusations against the chief ruling authority would have made him/her resign. But thats not happening in our nation .... we have people who are willing to look the other way till Mr.Modi gives us the so called prosperity and as long as it's not our family which got hacked in the communal riot, we are OK to not blame this politician.

Why should he resign because a few vested interests accused him of some slander without any sound proof ?

That (resigning) is nothing but making a mockery of the trust people reposed in him a few months before.

This is how people view Modi ,

Says Kalpesh Shah, an Ahmedabad businessmen: "How can those who are demanding the dismissal of Modi forget that it all began with the Godhra incident? If the anti-Muslim violence was unprecedented the Godhra incident too was unprecedented in independent India. The more the secularists gun for Modi the more popular he will become among the Hindus."

(from the India Today link in post 823)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again you are not aware of the facts and letting prejudice getting better of that. It is funny that you think it was the bodies that aroused the emotions and not the horrific crime of torching 57 devotees (many of them women and children) alive in Godhra itself.

This is not a fact, it is an opinion - either your personal opinion or the opinion that you have been tutored to utter.

Coming to your point, first of all the bodies were brought to the Sola civil hospital which was in western outskirts of Ahd , an area with little population and not to the main civil hospital in eastern Ahd from where the most killed Karsevaks hailed , and that too in the dead of the night, as a precautionary measure not to incite passions.

And both the Govt and the officials wanted the bodies to be cremated nearby so that passions will not be aroused..but the relatives of the fallen who hailed from the other side of Ahd would have none of it and took the bodies to their place and the procession gained number as it crossed the Ahd city. Modi had little or nothing to do with it.



India Today

And the SIT also has given a clean chit to the Govt's decision to shift the bodies to Ahd.

Decision oof bringing bodies from Godhra to Ahmedabad was right because Godhra was tense. Most karsevaks from Ahmedabad and nearby area. Ahmedabad was the best place for identification of bodies. Sola civil hospital was on outskirts of Ahmedabad and the bodies were broght in only at night. Cold storage and DNA testing facilities were not available in Godhra. So bringing bodies to Ahmedabad was justified.

Seven major points of SIT report revealed by Times Now | DeshGujarat.Com




I'm not an apologist but a realist who is aware of the past history/bad blood between the two communities, limitations of India, the woeful state our LEAs are in and how much little it takes to ignite a spark between them, while you sir, are an idealist living in an utopian world where two actions do not have connection with each other and can be treated in isolation. No it cannot. Newton's law plays a very important part here.

Do you propose that India should be governed by her constitution, by the Indian Penal Code and by the Criminal Procedure Code, or by lame excuses for their breach citing what you have, past history/ bad blood between the two communities, limitations of INdia, the woeful state our LEAs are in and how much little (sic) it takes to ignite a spark between them?

While both the national parties are corrupt as well as being communal, the hallmark of the BJP (and of all branches of the Sangh Parivar) is that it repeatedly encourages people to break the law, and then the apologists take over, using the language that you have just used, to excuse these as normal and to be expected deviations. Very clearly, from these repeated justifications, you imagine that India is to be ruled by whim and by the decision of religious bigots, and all resulting deviations from the law are to be justified as appropriate to our underdeveloped condition.

People from the Sangh Parivar are the foremost in their contempt for the Indian people, in assuming that Indians are unable to maintain the law and the constitution. This is surprising until one understands that it is motivated by the underlying religious motivation, that of making India a single community nation; even an obsolete and outdated party like the CPM managed to maintain Bengal free of communal tension for 34 years, so achieving this is not difficult unless one wants to break the law.

 

[Bhairava]

This is not a fact, it is an opinion - either your personal opinion or the opinion that you have been tutored to utter.

Fact : Something that is backed up by evidences or in this case, links from relevant sources.

Opinion : A statement that is borne out of one individual's predefined concepts,notions.

While I have tried to give links/sources for all the claims that I made in the course of correcting your post, almost everything you claimed were just your opinion or based on something that can hardly be called credible.

Do you propose that India should be governed by her constitution, by the Indian Penal Code and by the Criminal Procedure Code, or by lame excuses for their breach citing what you have, past history/ bad blood between the two communities, limitations of INdia, the woeful state our LEAs are in and how much little (sic) it takes to ignite a spark between them?

While both the national parties are corrupt as well as being communal, the hallmark of the BJP (and of all branches of the Sangh Parivar) is that it repeatedly encourages people to break the law, and then the apologists take over, using the language that you have just used, to excuse these as normal and to be expected deviations. Very clearly, from these repeated justifications, you imagine that India is to be ruled by whim and by the decision of religious bigots, and all resulting deviations from the law are to be justified as appropriate to our underdeveloped condition.

People from the Sangh Parivar are the foremost in their contempt for the Indian people, in assuming that Indians are unable to maintain the law and the constitution. This is surprising until one understands that it is motivated by the underlying religious motivation, that of making India a single community nation; even an obsolete and outdated party like the CPM managed to maintain Bengal free of communal tension for 34 years, so achieving this is not difficult unless one wants to break the law.

Argument non-sequitar.

My purpose was to debunk your calumny about Modi trying to inflame passions by purposefully "parading" the bodies of the dead around Ahmedabad by providing relevant facts to the contrary and not to indulge in the usual rhetoric of Congress-BJP-Sangh which you have conveniently slipped into.

Stating how young India is as a country, how strained the relations between the two communities were in Gujarat from historical times and how little a spark it takes to ignite the tinder are a part of background one must examine and view this incident in light of it and not in isolation. It is the same for any incident and not specifically for this incident alone.

p.s:- Regarding Bengal nobody burned a trainful of Karsevaks there. Anyway I think Deganga riotsof 2010 must be reminded to you.

 

[Bang Galore]

This is one of the reasons why I almost never enter into a discussion whether Modi's part in the 2002 riots included commission added to the well established case of omission. That can never be argued with absolute conviction either way. Those who believe that Modi was guilty will believe everything that has been said about his instruction or the other. Those who don't will accuse everyone who makes those allegations as being biased & doing so out of political reasoning though how that arguments applies to police officers is beyond me. What possible reason could so many officials have to accuse the CM of such acts knowing full well that all they will receive for their efforts is hatred from his supporters & relentless pressure from the government itself? Having said that, this will never be proven. There is simply no evidence that would stand judicial scrutiny for the infamous meeting often mentioned. Unless the DGP & other senior officials retract their statements & accept that the words were indeed spoken during that meeting, all we will have is purported comments made by those officers to others. While I find it difficult to believe that so many different officials would lie similarly and for no obvious purpose. I'm afraid that this will remain unproven.

However there is something that does not require proof; Modi was CM! Either he was hopeless at his job or he was deliberately inactive. Take you pick, Modi's many supporters have absolutely no answer to that one. Nor do they have to the fact that the tallest leader of the BJP & one of India's best PM's, Atal Behari Vajpayee didn't share the view that Modi was doing his job well. Modi was the recipient of Vajpayee's most famous public rebuke when he admonished him openly about not performing his raj dharma. There is now enough proof vouched for by some of Vajpayee's colleagues that not only was he extremely distressed by the Gujarat riots but that he held Modi responsible & wanted him to be sacked. Surely, people are not going to call Vajpayee the epithets that they give others holding similar views? This particular argument is something that no Modi supporter touches even with a barge pole because they simply don't have a counter to it. Arguing that Vajpayee who as PM would have access to pretty much all sort of intelligence reports was uninformed would be both silly & stupid. Arguing that people who only know what they read on the internet would be better informed than the PM of India would be even stupider. Hence the complete & utter lack of testicular fortitude to answer this particular charge.

Those who think that Modi is completely in the clear will have to chew their nails for a bit longer. Forget the judicial process & the like, nothing much will ever come out of it but Atal Behari Vajpayee has penned down his memoir with the help of Arun Shourie. It might come out only after he passes but only they know what exactly he has put down on what was, according to him the biggest blot on India, on the NDA government & more importantly on his own unblemished persona. There might still be a sting in the tail yet!

 

[Bhairava]

However there is something that does not require proof; Modi was CM! Either he was hopeless at his job or he was deliberately inactive. Take you pick, Modi's many supporters have absolutely no answer to that one.

He was a new CM,in office for only about 4 months or so at that time, and one who has not held any public office previously and obviously not well aware of the niceties of the job.

Call it inexperience, I don't mind.

( I can give a detailed reply about how his "supposed inaction" is just another myth..but then it's Sunday...)

Nor do they have to the fact that the tallest leader of the BJP & one of India's best PM's, Atal Behari Vajpayee didn't share the view that Modi was doing his job well.

Possibly coalition compulsion...considering that NC was a part of his Govt back then !.

 

[Bang Galore]

He was a new CM,in office for only about 4 months or so at that time, and one who has not held any public office previously and obviously not well aware of the niceties of the job.

Call it inexperience, I don't mind.

( I can give a detailed reply about how his "supposed inaction" is just another myth..but then it's Sunday...)

I'm sure that he was inexperienced (others may be prefer incompetent) but that is hardly what one hears from the very same people when they talk about Rajiv Gandhi & the 1984 riots. Anycase, it remains Modi's biggest failure.

Possibly coalition compulsion...considering that NC was a part of his Govt back then !.

That's funny because Modi had his own compulsions, elections were near, he was as you said; a very inexperienced CM, the BJP was expected to do badly, his allies (familial)- the nutcases of the VHP & Bajrang Dal might also have put him under pressure, couldn't they?

Vajpayee lashed out at Modi in the presence of several BJP cabinet ministers, lashed out in both public & private. Modi was then a relative small second rung leader, his communal electoral campaign was what brought him back to power. He has, subsequently done extremely well as CM but to somehow believe that expunges the blot of 2002 is simply illogical.

 

[Bhairava]

I'm sure that he was inexperienced (others may be prefer incompetent) but that is hardly what one hears from the very same people when they talk about Rajiv Gandhi & the 1984 riots. Anycase, it remains Modi's biggest failure.

Nobody, AFAIK, blames Rajiv Ghandi for the 1984 riots except for his (un)famous reaction - When a big tree falls, the ground beneath it shakes.

Re, incompetent that is the last word any one would associate with Modi now. So I guess the benefit of doubt could be given to him.

That's funny because Modi had his own compulsions, elections were near, he was as you said; a very inexperienced CM, the BJP was expected to do badly, his allies (familial)- the nutcases of the VHP & Bajrang Dal might also have put him under pressure, couldn't they ?

Are you suggesting that the Godhra train carnage was masterminded by Modi ?


If it's of any interest to you five of the convicted in Godhra train carnage (Mehmud Hussain Kalota,Salim Abdul Ghaffar Sheikh,Abdul Rehman Abdul Majid Ghantia,Faroukh Bhana and Haji Bilal) were Congress leaders/workers and it could also be argued that they had masterminded the carnage to engineer riots in a BJP ruled state, dismiss the Govt using Article 356 and bring in President's rule.

Vajpayee lashed out at Modi in the presence of several BJP cabinet ministers, lashed out in both public & private. Modi was then a relative small second rung leader, his communal electoral campaign was what brought him back to power. He has, subsequently done extremely well as CM but to somehow believe that expunges the blot of 2002 is simply illogical.

In 2002. he did not have to do anything..the electorate was already completely polarised due to the Godhra carnage and the subsequent riots.

As for his 2007 campaign it was going well along developmental planks until Sonia came in with her winner comment "Maut ka Saudagar" which again turned the tide in favor of NM.

He has, subsequently done extremely well as CM but to somehow believe that expunges the blot of 2002 is simply illogical.

The riots were unfortunate and Modi was unfortunate that the riots took place under him. But any line of thought indicating he was responsible for the riots is simply foolish and denying him the opportunity to higher offfices due to that is extremely prejudicial.

 

[Patriot]

Check poll now
Yes 256792 NO Way 266684

 

[Bhairava]

Check poll now
Yes 256792 NO Way 266684

Damn those Anonymous bots...

 

[Bang Galore]

The riots were unfortunate and Modi was unfortunate that the riots took place under him. But any line of thought indicating he was responsible for the riots is simply foolish and denying him the opportunity to higher offfices due to that that extremely prejudicial.

It would be if Modi were to publicly acknowledge that "inexperience". He hasn't leading to the charge that he didn't & doesn't care. The only thing "foolish" is for his supporters to believe that it won't be held against him. Heck, even NDA allies want nothing to do with him.

I would expect that any politician who wants to be PM of India must show both grace & magnanimity. A person who can't say sorry has little or no chance to tun the GoI especially when coalition politics will effectively require a consensus builder not someone headstrong, no matter how efficient.

In any case. after the recent UP elections, this dream is pretty much in tatters, even if the NDA were to come to power; the chances of someone like Modi being accepted as PM is very low. Allies will be in a position to dictate & can't see many of them going with Modi.

 

[Bhairava]

It would be if Modi were to publicly acknowledge that "inexperience". He hasn't leading to the charge that he didn't & doesn't care. The only thing "foolish" is for his supporters to believe that it won't be held against him. Heck, even NDA allies want nothing to do with him.

I would expect that any politician who wants to be PM of India must show both grace & magnanimity. A person who can't say sorry has little or no chance to tun the GoI especially when coalition politics will effectively require a consensus builder not someone headstrong, no matter how efficient.

In any case. after the recent UP elections, this dream is pretty much in tatters, even if the NDA were to come to power; the chances of someone like Modi being accepted as PM is very low. Allies will be in a position to dictate & can't see many of them going with Modi.

Well that is your opinion...Except JD(U) I don't think any other party in NDA is overtly mindful of the Muslim vote and in 2014 elections both of the parties wont project their PM candidates because the trump card of Congress, MMS wont be running for the third time given the harrowing time he is goin through.

Who becomes the PM will depend on what is the post-poll scenario and if NDA in its existing form ( + ADMK and TDP, two strong contenders to join NDA) gets a majority, Modi would be the first choice for PM and I dont see how anybody could accept him or not.

p.s.: I dont know what you mean by grace and magnanimity..nor I wish to know about it..But as far as Gujarat is concerned even the Muslims support him and feel they have not been discriminated against.. Now if outsiders are going to judge him and condemn him, when even the Muslims in Guj are supportive of him - then it shows a disconnect exists somewhere among the outsiders and not with Modi.

 

[jayron]

Modi is not a magic wand for India's problems. BJP and Modi are good at creating this illusion of growth and prosperity. I dont believe BJP did anything radical during their term. But one is just drugged by their propaganda, making you believe that things are great. Congress doesn't do that . So you actually know how sh1tty things are.

That said, I definitely want BJP in the next term as congress has swindled way too much this time and I feel like getting drugged by some feel good propaganda.

 

[KS]

Love him, hate him...you just can't ignore him. That's Narendra Modi for you.

I personally like him.