Su 30 and Su 35 can win hands down with F-35 in WVR and Dogfight

[DARKY]

@gambit

we have another one.

Ibris-E radar to high power, Shields to maximum.. warp drive(TVC) to full. Photon Torpedoes(R-77) to ready..
lets break the laws of electromagnetism and kill the F-35.

the much-advertised stealth aircraft was comprehensively defeated by Sukhoi Su-35 in August 2008 during classified computer-simulated war games in Hawaii conducted by the USAF with participation from other NATO members. While Pentagon and Lockheed-Martin officials hotly dispute the reports, at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia’s Defence Intelligence Organisation were said to have witnessed the simulation. The West Australian newspaper reported earlier this month that F-35s have been “clubbed like baby seals” by the simulated Su-35s.

May be you could teach them the laws of electromagnetism....

The Joint Strike Fighter Dilemma | Let Me Tell You...

 

[neehar]

this is just like saying sword defeats ak-47 in close quarters

so changed ur flags again??

 

[jhungary]

I don't like these kind of threads. Compare one thing than the other.

First of all, i am NOT a pilot. I don't fly in and out from the sky of combat. But i did gone into war, as an infantry officer. I know what it take to win. Matter not if you want to capture the Hill or shoot down enemy aircraft.

First rule: Never say "IF"

"If" is a big arse word and only appear in paper. If you got more missile, if you got more bullet, if this and if that. It does not matter to the acutal situation. You go to war with the equipment you had at that moment, with the technology you had at that moment. There are no If, only you have, or you have not.

What if SU-35 fly with PAKFA, what if they fly alone, does it matter? If you have to say If, they you need to balance it by assuming other have the "If-assumption" too. What if F-35 have radar and RCS update when PAKFA Comes out??
ing
Second Rule : War won by lead your enemy. Let you enemy follow you, play your game, rather than the opposit.

You don't win a war, a battle, or anything by following the opposition. You win by make them follow your rules. WHen enemy lead you on, you lose tempo, and all your move are restricted to counter your enemy's move. When you don't have a move for yourselve, you can't win. It's simple as that.

Everyone want the enemy to follow their mark. Not the other way around

3rd Rule : It's never your equipment who let you down, it's YOU who let you down.

Equipment are all the same, they are just tools. It's ended up on you, the person who use it.
You cannot bring in a person with IQ 85 and say the equipment is useless. It's that person who's useless, not the gear.

Every piece of equipment is designed for a specific function, fighter planes is no exception. If you don't know how to use it with it's proper function. That's your responsibility. That's not the eqeuipment fault.

Comparing Su35 and F-35 is futile. Why don't you compare the people who start this thread with a monkey? This is more interesting as far as i concern.

 

[gambit]

I had read an article about the pilots flying F-15's and F-16's in training exercises against the F-22......one of the pilots stated that he could visually identify the F-22 and yet his radar could not find it hence no missile lock, that's what stealth does!!

Source Please.

Sure...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies

Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

Within visual range does not mean you can make out fine details but more like silhouettes. Visual horizon literally at ground level is about 20-something km, then it increases with altitudes. Eagle eyed pilots can distinguish enemy silhouettes around doubled that figure. But even if we take this personal testimony with a grain of salt, it still says a lot about the -22's shaping for low radar observability within that 100 km radius where things often rapidly deteriorates into individual combat.

 

[Esc8781]

First rule: Never say "IF"

This is what's wrong with Carlo Kopp's and his minions' analysis. Too many assumptions, and not enough facts.

 

[Pandora]

What is the point of being stealthy if it cant even kill from a distance. In fact the whole point of building stealth aircraft is to remain out of sight. No need of close range combat.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The problem is that the F-35 will never allow them to get that close in the first place.

 

[jhungary]

This is what's wrong with Carlo Kopp's and his minions' analysis. Too many assumptions, and not enough facts.

Carlo Kopps is a fraud, he is a Trained COMPUTER SCIENTIST, not a pilot nor even a military expert, as far as i see, his word on Military are ****.

YOu will probably die if you believe only half what he said

 

[Esc8781]

Carlo Kopps is a fraud, he is a Trained COMPUTER SCIENTIST, not a pilot nor even a military expert, as far as i see, his word on Military are ****.

YOu will probably die if you believe only half what he said

Even if the reader believes what he say, and they continue reading Carlo contradicts himself.

 

[sms]

That's exactly what US thought in the Vietnam war.

Please do not compare apple to oranges. These are two different scenarios of fighting war with unreliable / under developed tech, RoEs vs latest most developed and reliable tech augmented by AWAC and more reliable long, medium and short range AA missiles.

 

[Anony]

here some guys say what ever they want without any source...

You are absolutely right. He didn't came up with source but has posted one more nonsense story.

 

[Mav3rick]

Source Please.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...nds-down-f-35-wvr-dogfight-3.html#post4036536

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Ozzy Blizzard's Australian Defence Times: Air Power Australia, Flanker Analysis Examined

Here is a nice read for all Carlo kopp fan boys who believe everything he says is true. truth is conveniently ignores many factors to suite his bias.

 

[Mav3rick]

1. Will you please help me by putting the source from where you had draw the above conclusion of 6:1 in JSF favour in dogfight.

2. Don't bring F-22 in the picture. F-22 is 20 times more stealthy than F-35 from the front and more than 100 times from the sideways. Read about complete design of F-35.

3. For your last paragraph, I would really want to know, who the hell know about F-35 that you have mentioned there.

4. What do you exactly mean by F-15SE is more than a match for Sukhoi and How?

5. Source for America told Israelis and all about those fantasies.

6. Source about USAF which states that JSF is 400% effective against Su family.

Point 1 - I posted stuff that I had read over the years about the JSF and F-22, if you do not want to discuss real world scenarios or do not wish to bring in the F-22 then fine, we can discuss the massive technological advantage that the F-35 holds over SU's etc. The net is full of 'actual, credible' articles by those who know what they are talking about, especially since the true potential of JSF has never been released to anyone, including most of the stake holders! Anyway, here it is:

Mr Liberson : Our current assessment that we speak of is: greater than six to one relative loss exchange ratio against in four versus eight engagement scenarios—four blue at 35s versus eight advanced red threats in the 2015 to 2020 time frame.

SOURCE

Point 2 - Pure speculations, while it is evident that the F-22 is a lot more stealthy, no one can dispute the stealthiness of the JSF especially in today's combat scenarios where no country has such low observable fighters in inventory!

Point 3 - I mean Lockheed Martin, the USAF and USN! People who represent the 3 and those who are directly involved in the JSF programme or experts who have more information on the JSF then outsiders.

Point 4 - Kindly read up on the F-15SE, especially the RCS bit. While we are aware of the outcome of actual combats b/w sukhois and the F-15 family, we can build on that and determine what we can expect from the SE edition.

Point 5 -

A senior U.S. defense official said the Joint Strike Fighter would be "the most stealthy, sophisticated and lethal tactical fighter in the sky," adding: "Quite simply, the F-15 will be no match for the F-35."

SOURCE

Point 6 - FORT WORTH, Texas, September 19th, 2008 -- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.

SOURCE

I may have not realized when I joined the arguments, that I was speaking to a child!!

 

[Anony]

The title of discussion is WVR and Dogfighting capabilities of F-35 and Su 27 family. Not even a single sentence has thrown any light on that. And you blindly assumed that F-35 will kill all the Su 27 and its derivatives in BVR mode. I am asking you to come out of this misconception.

And not a single type of missile has ever built, that can achieve 100% even 85% in BVR mode.It's actually far less than that.
I really don't know what defence doctrine USA follows, but here in Asia WVR combat and Dogfighting are two very essential parameters to evaluate an aircraft and are given more importance than BVR kill parameters.

The Su-35 is a Mach 2.4 (nearly two and half times the speed of sound) aircraft while the F-35 is limited to Mach 1.6. According to Victor M. Chepkin, the first deputy general director of NPO Saturn, the new AL-41F engines will allow Russian jets to supercruise – fly at supersonic speed for long distances. By not having to switch their afterburners on, aircraft are able to save a lot of fuel. Translation – non-supercruising fighters such as the F-35 and F-18s will be at a huge disadvantage against the Sukhois.
Stealth – Holes in the cloak
So obsessed were the aircraft’s designers with stealth that they ignored or sacrificed fighter basics such as range, payload and speed. The thinking was stealth alone would be enough to keep the JSF ahead of the pack. However, even as the Americans were perfecting stealth tech, the Russians were developing new combat techniques against it. They are now experimenting with new radar that can pick out stealth planesColonel of Aviation Grigoriy “Grisha” Medved, a former Russian fighter pilot, says the worst part of the F-35 is a very hot engine – 160 Celsius hotter than standard combat jet engine exhaust. “It makes a very bright star in the sky and a long jet plume,” he says in a study for Air Power Australia.
Russia has adapted technology developed for detecting ICBM launches, to air combat fighters, says Medved. This technology enables Russian fighter pilots to see a standard fighter at about 50 km; by 2017 it will allow them to see stealth fighters at about 150 km. Because such radars are passive, the enemy will have no idea they are being watched.
In a dogfight, Medved notes an Su-35 can salvo a pair of missiles. The first, an active-radar-homing one, will force the F-35 pilot to take evasive action, exposing his beam-on radar cross section and exhausts to another (heat-seeking) shot.
Plus, with its large internal fuel load, the Su-35 can perform multiple attacks, launching missiles, turning hard to evade and then re-engaging. That is, play “cat and mouse” with the Aussies. The Sukhoi’s much better inventory of BVR (beyond visual range) missiles can then finish the job. As Medved says, “Run in for kill with R-73 or guns. No (F-35) can ever out-fly Sukhoi in knife fight.”
And, the colonel adds, with the PAK-FA coming, the F-35 “best stay home unless escorted by bigger brother.”
Whether bigger brother can accompany the F-35 is doubtful. “The cancellation of the F-22 will make Sukhoi aircraft the most capable production fighter planes available,” says New Australia. “It also marks a historic shift in air-power from the United States to Russia and the countries that use Russian defence technology.”
If you are in the Australian air force, you are on your own mate.

Why Australia should scratch the F-35 and fly Sukhois | Russia & India Report