Should The Pakistan Navy build a Mobile Base Ship?

[FuturePAF]

Naval Berthing facilities in Oman for India are a real headache for PN. In both previous wars, Indian Navy tried to intercept Pakistan bound merchant ships in North western Arabian Sea when they did not have such berthing facilities. Now this will turn out be a logistics advantage for IN

This is one of the reasons that we went from a roughly aligned two task group force to three with the increase in major surface vessels. I for one firmly believe we should put together another surface task group and base it around Djibouti to intercept India bound merchant vessels and draw away IN Ships from Pakistani waters.

Djibouti would a great option, as the Chinese already have a naval base there. Borrowing Space on a berth there could go along way into forcing the Indians to spread themselves out. Especially if we can berth a Submarine there.

 

[Signalian]

The Outgoing Naval Chief’s farewell speech laid out the new force structure of the Future navy, but it raised a number of key questions.

The navy looks like it wants to become a true blue water force, but the issue of building the capability to operate in contested waters, even within our EEZ could still be in doubt, as the adversary looks to be building a 200 ship navy.

Chief amongst the adversaries capabilities will be a large Attack submarine fleet. From the admiral’s speech, we can expect the acquisition of many more manned MPA and UAV based MPA, but that Can still leave the ships with limited availability of protection from enemy subs and over the horizon information on enemy surface vessels as well.

One option to address this short coming and not acquire LHD is building “Mobile Naval bases” In our own shipyards, on the design of our fleet replenishment tankers. These ships can be equipped with flight decks and hanger space to host a decent number of Large ASW and AEW helicopters or even Large VTOL UAVs for ASW and AEW (saving us from needing to redesign any destroyer or frigates we may acquire), and with the use of cranes on the side can also house UUVs, Midget Subs, Resupply FACs and submarines at sea, the list goes on.

With a ship like this, the navy would have a dedicated platform to complement the AAW capabilities of a destroyer and the ASW towed sonar capabilities of a dedicated ASW Frigate or Corvette, all without having to build or buy a full LHD. If the costs are reasonable, each of the three major naval bases, could have a ship like this, and the threat of enemy Submarines, Surface ships, and Aircraft would have been mitigated significantly.

Our newest fleet tanker at 17,000 tons

Turkish-designed Pakistani navy ship makes maiden trip

Fleet tanker makes its first sea trial in Indian Ocean - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

A design planned for not that different missions by the US marines.

Navy Wants More Ships to Expand Mobile Sea Basing

Navy and Marine Corps leaders see mobile, off-shore bases as the key to responding to short-fuse contingency operations.

www.google.com

PN will have to build an all-rounder type TF sized Naval force just to protect this Mobile base. The mobile base, vessels that protect it and helicopters that fly from this ship will need fighter protection at some level especially when this base is floating at distance far from land. Similar to an aircraft carrier, it will be a hot target for enemy subs, frigates and air element. PN could use it in amphibious warfare if Marines cannot conduct an offensive through the creek area due to terrain limitations like prohibiting heavy weapons to go across. PN could aim for acquiring longer sized Destroyers which could house two helicopters. Chinese help could be taken in building artificial islands further south of Ormara for air strips, communication centre, repair facility and troop housing. PN should also look into use of port facility of friendly Navies in case of war like Hambantota port leased to China for 99 years in Sri Lanka, Kyaukpyu port built with Chinese assistance in Myanmar, Feydhoo Finolhu Island in Maldives which has been leased to China till 2066 and Port De Djibouti which bases PLA Navy.

 

[FuturePAF]

PN will have to build an all-rounder type TF sized Naval force just to protect this Mobile base. The mobile base, vessels that protect it and helicopters that fly from this ship will need fighter protection at some level especially when this base is floating at distance far from land. Similar to an aircraft carrier, it will be a hot target for enemy subs, frigates and air element. PN could use it in amphibious warfare if Marines cannot conduct an offensive through the creek area due to terrain limitations like prohibiting heavy weapons to go across. PN could aim for acquiring longer sized Destroyers which could house two helicopters. Chinese help could be taken in building artificial islands further south of Ormara for air strips, communication centre, repair facility and troop housing. PN should also look into use of port facility of friendly Navies in case of war like Hambantota port leased to China for 99 years in Sri Lanka, Kyaukpyu port built with Chinese assistance in Myanmar, Feydhoo Finolhu Island in Maldives which has been leased to China till 2066 and Port De Djibouti which bases PLA Navy.

At some stage of development, if the doctrine evolves that we need to be able to dominate our EEZ, moving away from a Sea Denial strategy as it is currently to a dominance strategy, requiring persistent presence, then we would need LPDs of something size and number (to prevent coverage gaps in ASW and AEW). Couple this with the expanded role of the Pak Marines, then a ship like this makes sense.

You are correct it will require many assets to protect it, but from the outgoing CNS speech, it looks to be we are already in the process or planning to acquire all these capabilities, and the last remaining piece would be LPDs.

We have options in the form of the Type 071E from China and there is also a Turkish LPD option, as seen in one of the videos I posted above. If the PN decides to induct a LPD, it will do so in accordance with a review of its doctrine and finances. Purchasing or building LPDs will save in having to modify destroyers to extend this flight decks or add hanger space, allowing them to focus on carrying as many VLS missile tubes and ASW equipment, to fight the enemy, while the LPD focuses on air and amphibious operations. BTW, the LPD gives pace to deploy drone helicopters, not just in AEW

The LPD’s well deck could be used to house decoys (surface and subsurface) to be deployed when threat levels are high to lure away enemy cruise missiles and Torpedos, similar to the MALD in the USAF to protect aircraft or decoy dummy tanks in the army. Making the enemy use up its resources and protecting our assets. The LPD opens up more options to be more survivable and expand the scope of our operations to dominate our EEZ.

Here is a USN video on the same problem and what they are doing.

 

[khanmubashir]

This ship would be used as part of a task force of frigates/corvettes and destroyers. It take the burden off the Air Force and land based assets to provide 24/7 protection from enemy submarines and to provide over the horizon AEW coverage. An enemy can wait until our AEW coverage moves out of range and sneak in a surprise barrage of cruise missiles at our task force. With a ship like this, when the Erieye is moving out of range, AEW helicopter or UAV would take up a patrol orbit, preventing any break in surveillance.

Equally as important, MPA (turboprop and jet powered) can only loiter for so long and may not be in the area around the task force providing protection from enemy Submarine attack. This ship allows many ASW helicopters and ASW UAVs to be available for constant coverage. Along with a SOSUS net in our EEZ and surface drones providing active sonar noise, the ASW helicopter/UAV can have passive sensors to listen for the reflections and locate any hostile Undersea contacts.

This should would basically just be our current 17,000 tanker design with a deck on top and a few hangers. It could also be used as the task force’s tanker.

This is just an idea to get the most out our assets, and fill gaps in the most efficient means possible. To clarify, this would not stay stationary, but move with the fleet like a mini-LHD without the amphibious capabilities.

It would be more akin to RFA Argus

A North Arabian Sea bastion is a must to Pakistani Naval security. Hopefully, the PLA Navy re-enforces their bade in Djibouti with a decent sized force to support the Pakistan Navy in ASW and AEW, to keep the SLOCs open, but securing our EEZ ourselves is a must for our defense.

This support ship/flight deck/tanker is to fill the gaps that the land based assets will inevitably have when the my need to return to base and before the next land based asset can take its place. With the use of Helicopters and UAVs, the PN could, IMHO, do it more economically and have a force that is available 24/7, right there with the task force.

The PN has three major naval bases, from which ships will be launched, and we not always have enough land based assets to protect them all. This idea was about modifying the tanker that will go with the fleet anyway, to also have a deck to launch and recover helicopters and UAVs and prevent the need for destroyers and frigates to be burdened with multiple helicopter operations each. Why not coordinate the efforts from one deck and one command post to protect the whole task force efficiently.

P.S. There maybe another solution. Buying a mini LHD from one of our reliable allies. Instead of an Ad-Hoc design on top of a tanker, we could get a small LHD that could serve the needs of the Marines, SSGN (deployment and recover of midget subs from the well deck), and Navy (deploying UUVs). IMHO, the Turkish design offers the most promise; a stealthy deign well could build after the ToT for the tanker and the future Jinnah Class Frigates.

Why not develop islands off the coast of Balochistan Sindh perhaps even make a a few artificial ones like Chinese made for forward unsinkable bases for same $$$

This ship would be used as part of a task force of frigates/corvettes and destroyers. It take the burden off the Air Force and land based assets to provide 24/7 protection from enemy submarines and to provide over the horizon AEW coverage. An enemy can wait until our AEW coverage moves out of range and sneak in a surprise barrage of cruise missiles at our task force. With a ship like this, when the Erieye is moving out of range, AEW helicopter or UAV would take up a patrol orbit, preventing any break in surveillance.

Equally as important, MPA (turboprop and jet powered) can only loiter for so long and may not be in the area around the task force providing protection from enemy Submarine attack. This ship allows many ASW helicopters and ASW UAVs to be available for constant coverage. Along with a SOSUS net in our EEZ and surface drones providing active sonar noise, the ASW helicopter/UAV can have passive sensors to listen for the reflections and locate any hostile Undersea contacts.

This should would basically just be our current 17,000 tanker design with a deck on top and a few hangers. It could also be used as the task force’s tanker.

This is just an idea to get the most out our assets, and fill gaps in the most efficient means possible. To clarify, this would not stay stationary, but move with the fleet like a mini-LHD without the amphibious capabilities.

It would be more akin to RFA Argus

A North Arabian Sea bastion is a must to Pakistani Naval security. Hopefully, the PLA Navy re-enforces their bade in Djibouti with a decent sized force to support the Pakistan Navy in ASW and AEW, to keep the SLOCs open, but securing our EEZ ourselves is a must for our defense.

This support ship/flight deck/tanker is to fill the gaps that the land based assets will inevitably have when the my need to return to base and before the next land based asset can take its place. With the use of Helicopters and UAVs, the PN could, IMHO, do it more economically and have a force that is available 24/7, right there with the task force.

The PN has three major naval bases, from which ships will be launched, and we not always have enough land based assets to protect them all. This idea was about modifying the tanker that will go with the fleet anyway, to also have a deck to launch and recover helicopters and UAVs and prevent the need for destroyers and frigates to be burdened with multiple helicopter operations each. Why not coordinate the efforts from one deck and one command post to protect the whole task force efficiently.

P.S. There maybe another solution. Buying a mini LHD from one of our reliable allies. Instead of an Ad-Hoc design on top of a tanker, we could get a small LHD that could serve the needs of the Marines, SSGN (deployment and recover of midget subs from the well deck), and Navy (deploying UUVs). IMHO, the Turkish design offers the most promise; a stealthy deign well could build after the ToT for the tanker and the future Jinnah Class Frigates.

Why not develop islands off the coast of Balochistan Sindh perhaps even make a a few artificial ones like Chinese made for forward unsinkable bases for same $$$
I think on the concept of distributed lethality mini drones should be developed to launch from standard frigates instead of such large mother ships which would be a focused target for the enemy sutit conflict
During Falkland war UK used commercial freight ships to transport weapons even as carriers for harrier jets from Europe to near Antarctic side of South America
We can use pnsc ships for same purpose in time's of emergency using drones instead of course with frigate other pn fleet providing protection

So pnsc should be supported to become a large viable commercial shipping company

We don't have $$$ to lock into huge ships only useful in war situation


Same goes for strategic air lift develope Pia

 

[FuturePAF]

Why not develop islands off the coast of Balochistan Sindh perhaps even make a a few artificial ones like Chinese made for forward unsinkable bases for same $$$

Why not develop islands off the coast of Balochistan Sindh perhaps even make a a few artificial ones like Chinese made for forward unsinkable bases for same $$$
I think on the concept of distributed lethality mini drones should be developed to launch from standard frigates instead of such large mother ships which would be a focused target for the enemy sutit conflict
During Falkland war UK used commercial freight ships to transport weapons even as carriers for harrier jets from Europe to near Antarctic side of South America
We can use pnsc ships for same purpose in time's of emergency using drones instead of course with frigate other pn fleet providing protection

So pnsc should be supported to become a large viable commercial shipping company

We don't have $$$ to lock into huge ships only useful in war situation


Same goes for strategic air lift develope Pia

The benefits from an island off the cost would be outweighed by longer range land based assets. With a ship like a LPD moving with a task force, you have helicopters ready 24/7. We could use commercial ships, and that maybe enough, but we may need more capabilities and should plan for the full 30 year lifecycle as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) said. With the well deck, we can launch large enough surface and subsurface decoys and from the flight deck launch EW helicopters (as spoken of in the USN video from one of my earlier posts), as well as ASW and AEW helicopters/UAVs, to prevent a coverage gap when land based assets run out of fuel and need to return to base.

The size of the Commercial ship or LPD would probably be 20,000-25,000 tons. We already operate 17,000 ton tankers. The cost spent on this ship would be offset by not having to spend to modify any frigates or destroyers to operate more helicopters. Also this ship could carry FAC inside, with long range Anti-Ship cruise missiles to be used in a distributed attack.

Yes the threat of this vessel would be high, but being protected with a layered AAW, ASuW, and ASW capabilities of Destroyers and frigates in the task force (already planned for acquisition according to the outgoing CNS), then this ship would be adding to the overall lethality of the task force and adding another layer of defense through EW helicopters/UAVs. This ship would also take some of the burden off the Air Force to provide protection, as the AEW helicopters would be able to detect and give targeting data to the AAW Destroyers.

While this ship is considerably larger than other surface ships, we will have to find a way to protect larger vessels, because we may need to operate large vessels in the future. This ship also opens up the opportunity to place full sized ELINT equipment as featured on PLAN electronic surveillance ships. This would be allow the ship to track enemy ballistic missile launches or other enemy operations from the seaward axis or from southern India, such as Indian main naval base at Karwar. This peacetime capability would allow the navy to build up data on the enemy over the years, so we are better prepared should a conflict flare up.

PLAN commissions new Kaiyangxing Type 815A electronic reconnaissance ship

PLAN commissions new Kaiyangxing Type 815A electronic reconnaissance ship

www.navyrecognition.com

Obviously, a cost benefit analysis would have to be done, and this would require a shift in doctrine; operating further out from land based assets, but it seems the CNS was hinting at such a shift in doctrine with the new acquisitions. At least further out to cover our EEZ.

 

[313baberali]

My answer is yes ! Its better to have a ship permanently placed atleast 200 NM to 500NM.
So what we need and why we need. Obviously this ship base is for peace time which covers some key roles
1.Fuel replenishment also food and services
2.Hospital and rest area as small ship sailors get sea sick more often.
3.command and control
4. Helicopter facility for 3 helicopters only.
Its best that PMSA lead this part rather than Navy because its the requirement of Pakistan maritime but both can also invest in it.In an ideal scenario a joint platform from Navy ,PMSA ,oceans and fishries,environment,geological survey ,and some part from universities will be best.
A ship converion will be great for this role used bulk cargo ship/oil tanker or container ship is ideal .just to add refits according to needs

EEZ is the responsibility of PMSA

 

[Signalian]

At some stage of development, if the doctrine evolves that we need to be able to dominate our EEZ, moving away from a Sea Denial strategy as it is currently to a dominance strategy, requiring persistent presence, then we would need LPDs of something size and number (to prevent coverage gaps in ASW and AEW). Couple this with the expanded role of the Pak Marines, then a ship like this makes sense.

You are correct it will require many assets to protect it, but from the outgoing CNS speech, it looks to be we are already in the process or planning to acquire all these capabilities, and the last remaining piece would be LPDs.

We have options in the form of the Type 071E from China and there is also a Turkish LPD option, as seen in one of the videos I posted above. If the PN decides to induct a LPD, it will do so in accordance with a review of its doctrine and finances. Purchasing or building LPDs will save in having to modify destroyers to extend this flight decks or add hanger space, allowing them to focus on carrying as many VLS missile tubes and ASW equipment, to fight the enemy, while the LPD focuses on air and amphibious operations. BTW, the LPD gives pace to deploy drone helicopters, not just in AEW

The LPD’s well deck could be used to house decoys (surface and subsurface) to be deployed when threat levels are high to lure away enemy cruise missiles and Torpedos, similar to the MALD in the USAF to protect aircraft or decoy dummy tanks in the army. Making the enemy use up its resources and protecting our assets. The LPD opens up more options to be more survivable and expand the scope of our operations to dominate our EEZ.

Here is a USN video on the same problem and what they are doing.

Nothing against decoys, i am a proponent of creating illusions and magical tricks in military forces to confuse enemy, but in case of war, enemy will come down hard and use aerial assets at stand off ranges to take down PN surface and rotary assets. USN build the F-14 and AIM54 combo to ward off such attacks from long ranges, today F-18s provide that with Aim120. One anti-ship missile launched from enemy aircraft making its way through PN defences is all its going to take to bring the whole investment down and sink the mobile base ship. You wouldn't want to be sending out a sitting duck to protect EEZ in war. PN will need fighter aircrafts to protect it. In peace time its all good.

 

[FuturePAF]

Nothing against decoys, i am a proponent of creating illusions and magical tricks in military forces to confuse enemy, but in case of war, enemy will come down hard and use aerial assets at stand off ranges to take down PN surface and rotary assets. USN build the F-14 and AIM54 combo to ward off such attacks from long ranges, today F-18s provide that with Aim120. One anti-ship missile launched from enemy aircraft making its way through PN defences is all its going to take to bring the whole investment down and sink the mobile base ship. You wouldn't want to be sending out a sitting duck to protect EEZ in war. PN will need fighter aircrafts to protect it. In peace time its all good.

That would hold true for any aircraft carrier without a task force protecting it. This ship would always operate with a destroyer and a frigate or corvette protecting it from Aerial and Submarine attack respectively. Besides, the navy plans to face that threat anyway.

An alternative, so as not to “put all the eggs in one basket”, it to expand the hanger space and deck space on any frigate and destroyer we induct, so that each ship can carry a portion of these assets. Instead of just one ASW helicopter, the destroyer would carry one ASW helicopter and an AEW helicopter and perhaps one EW drone helicopter. The frigates would carry one ASW helicopter, one ASW drone helicopter and one EW drone helicopter. The alternative can work too but it would require modify all the frigates and destroyers to have the additional hanger and deck space. This is a fine alternative as well, but the benefit of having a dedicated ship is better management of flight operations.

My answer is yes ! Its better to have a ship permanently placed atleast 200 NM to 500NM.
So what we need and why we need. Obviously this ship base is for peace time which covers some key roles
1.Fuel replenishment also food and services
2.Hospital and rest area as small ship sailors get sea sick more often.
3.command and control
4. Helicopter facility for 3 helicopters only.
Its best that PMSA lead this part rather than Navy because its the requirement of Pakistan maritime but both can also invest in it.In an ideal scenario a joint platform from Navy ,PMSA ,oceans and fishries,environment,geological survey ,and some part from universities will be best.
A ship converion will be great for this role used bulk cargo ship/oil tanker or container ship is ideal .just to add refits according to needs

EEZ is the responsibility of PMSA

Not permanently placed, but a moving LPD/Tanker, that moves with a task force.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Eventually, PN will go for Mini Carrier option which suits its requirements and within its financial capacity.
In my opinion, first coming 5 years would see new Frigate, Corvette and Destroyer along with Submarines in PN. Then, these LHD Ships OR Mini/Used carrier might see its way into PN.

 

[khanmubashir]

My answer is yes ! Its better to have a ship permanently placed atleast 200 NM to 500NM.
So what we need and why we need. Obviously this ship base is for peace time which covers some key roles
1.Fuel replenishment also food and services
2.Hospital and rest area as small ship sailors get sea sick more often.
3.command and control
4. Helicopter facility for 3 helicopters only.
Its best that PMSA lead this part rather than Navy because its the requirement of Pakistan maritime but both can also invest in it.In an ideal scenario a joint platform from Navy ,PMSA ,oceans and fishries,environment,geological survey ,and some part from universities will be best.
A ship converion will be great for this role used bulk cargo ship/oil tanker or container ship is ideal .just to add refits according to needs

EEZ is the responsibility of PMSA

I read that pmsa is different from coast guard's
Pmsa under ministry of defence coast guard under interior

They should merge both to stream line resources

Eventually, PN will go for Mini Carrier option which suits its requirements and within its financial capacity.
In my opinion, first coming 5 years would see new Frigate, Corvette and Destroyer along with Submarines in PN. Then, these LHD Ships OR Mini/Used carrier might see its way into PN.

With federal taking over islands from Sindh and Balochistan gov I believe we r opting to have forward island bases
Some of em can also be used for tourism and commercial activities

 

[Zarvan]

Don't know about that but Pakistan for sure needs at 4 naval bases not three. If you can't build on Pakistani coastline than bring China in and create a massive man made island in your waters and used it as naval base

 

[FuturePAF]

Don't know about that but Pakistan for sure needs at 4 naval bases not three. If you can't build on Pakistani coastline than bring China in and create a massive man made island in your waters and used it as naval base

Karachi harbor is good for repairs and training, but ships from Karachi should be moved to a site slightly west of Karachi for faster deployments and better protection from enemy attack.

The land opposite Charna Island (“Mubarak Private Beach”/“PALS Outdoors Beach”) would be perfect to build a new base. Close enough to protect Karachi, but up against some hills so weapons storage (and possibly a large submarine pen) can be done under ground. If the base is large enough, Charna Island could become a SAM site to protect the base from one direction, while other Sam sites can be made on the mainland sides. Air defense weapons could be fired in time of war, without fear the nearby civilian population could get hurt.

Check out the pictures of the location. And notice, among other features, the cliffs.

PALS Outdoors Beach

PALS Outdoors Beach

★★★★★ · Water sports equipment rental service · Mubarak Goth Rd

goo.gl

I know this would get a lot of push back from local proper owners, so the navy will have to work with them to compensate and/or pick a site both locals and the navy can work with. The navy could build a resort further up the beach (at Sunhera Beach, still in Sindh) with all the facilities; bathrooms, lodging, etc. (especially for Women and children, which the current site seems to lack) to gather to the people of Karachi that come here as well to replace the lost employment taking this site would cause. The navy could also build a fishing port for the local town, near that resort, to keep fishermen away from this site as well. Charna island would have to be closed to scuba dives as is its current tourists attraction, but something similar should be made at that resort further up the coast. The only concern left would be making sure the run off water from the Hub power plant is safe, as it goes near the fishing port and Sunhera beach location.

The town of Mubarak would have to be moved, but it doesn’t seem like its permanent houses but fishermen’s huts. Where they bring in the fish and process it for the tourists. A modern facility and training should help move them catch more fish and easily sell to market.

Artificial islands don’t have the benefit of a connection to land for rapid reinforcement or supplies in the event of an attack.

 

[YeBeWarned]

It's an interesting idea, but bear in mind, a ship is always a long-term investment. Basically, a Mobile Naval Base may be useful for 5-10 years, but it's a cost we'll have to eat for 20-30 years, if not longer. In this case, why not move straight ahead to the LHD and get more mileage out of it?

What about using some of the tiny Islands near Baluchistan, be used as small bases ? with probably some AD systems ? or Anti ship missile batteries ?

 

[313baberali]

Not permanently placed, but a moving LPD/Tanker, that moves with a task force.

I differ here as thread talks about base. so moving with the force it can but as our topic primarily focus on center point which work as functional base.

If u want any addition in ur list

 

[BRAVO_]

if its about showing military presence and a permanent foothold ..then artificial iselands are the best idea similar to china