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Separating the fact from the fiction about Pakistan

53fd

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Let us separate the fact from the fiction. From 1989-2001, the global arena for international terrorism (Al-Qaeda) was Afghanistan. Even to this day, it is Afghanistan. But now, Pakistan has been added to the picture as well. The US can talk all it wants about only 50-100 Al-Qaeda fighters being left in Afghanistan today, it does not make it true. As we all know, the Al-Qaeda have strong control over the areas of Kunar & parts of Nuristan after the US abandoned their posts. Terrorists like Qari Zia Rehman, an open enemy of Pakistan, is clearly given refuge in Kunar. The IMU, the Al-Qaeda affiliated group & the biggest threat to Uzbekistan, is based in Northern Afghanistan, not Pakistan. The US has made a big mistake by not confronting the safe havens in Kunar & Nuristan, as they are strong Al-Qaeda safe havens that are a nuisance for the whole region, including Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Chechnya, & the rest of the world. A few weeks ago, some Chechen people tried to infiltrate into Quetta, Balochistan from Afghanistan; & they got killed by the Border Forces. What purpose did they have coming into Pakistan? There are already some Chechen terrorists in Pakistan's tribal areas; as are Somalian, Yemeni, Uzbek, German & Arab terrorists that have no business being in Pakistan & who the Pakistan Army is fighting against constantly. Where do they come from? Not from the airports inside Pakistan, but from the safe havens of Kunar & Nuristan in Afghanistan. Kunar, with its Salafi extremist culture, as well as its Arab nature, is the perfect recruiting tool for these international terrorists from Arab & other countries. Compared to Pakistan where the Pakistan government has control of almost all of Pakistan, it is the Afghan terrorists that have most of the control over eastern provinces in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda fighters flow freely & easily through Northern Afghanistan.

The point I am trying to make here is that from 1989-2001, Pakistan supported Afghan elements that gave it strategic depth there. Pakistan supported certain elements that gave it strategic depth in Indian administered Kashmir. Before 2001, there was practically no Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. After the 2001 US invasion, many Al-Qaeda fighters got refuge in Pakistan's tribal areas. As you can see; there are some Yemeni, Somali, German, Uzbek, Chechen fighters that have infiltrated into Pakistan's tribal areas from Afghanistan & given refuge there, the fighters that were never present in Pakistan before 2001. Furthermore, Pakistan has no use for these Yemeni, Somali, German, Uzbek, Chechen fighters: it does not give them any kind of strategic depth. These group of fighters are useless to Pakistan. Chechen fighters that threaten Chechnya or Russia are of no use to Pakistan, as Chechnya has no use to Pakistan. In other words, these international fighters are nothing but trouble to Pakistan.

There is a huge propaganda war going on against Pakistan that alleges that Pakistan somehow uses all these terrorists for its strategic depth, & that Pakistan is responsible for all the global terrorism. Nothing could be further from the truth, & unless the actual problems are addressed, the situation in the region won't be solved. It is easy to make Pakistan the scapegoat for all the problems in the world, without actually looking at the real problems of the region.

Pakistan might use local Jihadi groups for strategic depth in Afghanistan & India, but it has no use for the globalist Islamic agenda. This is the reality the world has to accept. Before 2001, there were hardly any Al-Qaeda fighters in Pakistan. Ever since the Afghan war, they have infiltrated from Afghanistan into Pakistan, & they have been rejuvenated in their "zeal" of overthrowing the occupying forces in Afghanistan. The important question is: once the NATO troops withdraw (or significantly reduce) from Afghanistan, will the Al-Qaeda with the globalist agenda leave Pakistan? The most straightforward conclusion one can come up with, is yes: they will. The US as a non-Muslim force occupying "Islamic/Muslim" land rejuvenated them to come together, & they see it from that spectrum. In most probability, they will go back to where they came from once the war is over. The fact is, that the Al-Qaeda international fighters are at the behest of the local Jihadi groups in the region, to provide them shelter & protection: they can't survive in the region without the protection of the local Jihadi groups. As the international group of extremists is not local to the region, they will most probability leave once the Afghanistan issue is resolved. But what if they don't? The Pakistan Intelligence is banking on the hopes that these international fighters are only in Pakistan temporarily, as they weren't in Pakistan pre-9/11.

However, the local Jihadi groups in Pakistan might decide to keep them against the Pakistan government, in case they feel threatened by the Pakistan Army. Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan. I believe that it is the international Al-Qaeda fighters with the globalist Islamist agenda that are the real problem, the local groups are not a problem by themselves as long as they don't provide shelter to the international Al-Qaeda fighters with the globalist agenda. In a similar way to what the US is doing by negotiating settlements with the Taliban in the Afghanistan end-game, Pakistan must ensure that it maintains ties to local groups, so that these groups don't start a war with Pakistan, & then have to resort to giving safe havens to Al-Qaeda fighters, as long as these local groups by themselves do not challenge the state of Pakistan like they do when affiliated with Al-Qaeda.

This is not the conclusion most of us would like to see in my opinion, but this is what might be the end-state for the region. Pakistan is bidding out its time till the US packs up & leaves, & is looking at damage control mechanisms inside the country right now. My two cents.
 
Not one mention of North Waziristan and the terrorists hiding there in the above 2000 word article ?

BTW the crux of the article is this single line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan.

Meaning, don't stop supporting jihadi groups, they might help you in the future never mind the destruction they are causing in the present. The alleged 40,000 Pak lives don't matter and pervasive Islamism creeping inside the Pak society doesn't matter.
 
Not one mention of North Waziristan and the terrorists hiding there in the above 2000 word article ?

BTW the crux of the article is this single line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan.

Meaning, don't stop supporting jihadi groups, they might help you in the future never mind the destruction they are causing in the present. The alleged 40,000 Pak lives don't matter and pervasive Islamism creeping inside the Pak society doesn't matter.

You didn't understand the article. I suggest you read it carefully, & then get back.

No one disputes that there are al-Qaeda terrorists in North Waziristan now. But pre-9/11, there were no Al-Qaeda fighters in Pakistan. Post 9/11, they got pushed into Pakistan's tribal areas from Afghanistan. Which is why the US attacked Afghanistan, not Pakistan on 9/11. It is nothing but lies from the international media that Pakistan supports the international globalist agenda of the international Al-Qaeda fighters from Uzbekistan, Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Germany, Arab nations etc to gain any kind of leverage. Pakistan was only interested in having strategic depth in Afghanistan & Indian administered Kashmir. What leverage can Pakistan gain by supporting international Chechen Al-Qaeda terrorists against Chechnya or Russia? In fact, the international fighters of these country are nothing but an impediment to Pakistan & the Pakistan administration. Hence, many of the things international media outlets spew about Pakistan are pretty much false. It is harmful for everyone to make Pakistan the scapegoat for everything & overlook the real problems, & the underlying causes of the region. I suggest you read the initial post carefully once again, & then respond.
 
Not one mention of North Waziristan and the terrorists hiding there in the above 2000 word article ?

BTW the crux of the article is this single line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan.

Meaning, don't stop supporting jihadi groups, they might help you in the future never mind the destruction they are causing in the present. The alleged 40,000 Pak lives don't matter and pervasive Islamism creeping inside the Pak society doesn't matter.

The US has negotiated with the Taliban, & is brokering peace deals & power transferring mechanisms with them: as long as they distance themselves from the international Al-Qaeda network. Are they wrong to do that, & is Afghanistan wrong to accept that?
 
You didn't understand the article. I suggest you read it carefully, & then get back.

No one disputes that there are al-Qaeda terrorists in North Waziristan now. But pre-9/11, there were no Al-Qaeda fighters in Pakistan. Post 9/11, they got pushed into Pakistan's tribal areas from Afghanistan. Which is why the US attacked Afghanistan, not Pakistan on 9/11. It is nothing but lies from the international media that Pakistan supports the international globalist agenda of the international Al-Qaeda fighters from Uzbekistan, Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Germany, Arab nations etc to gain any kind of leverage. What leverage can Pakistan gain by supporting international Chechen Al-Qaeda terrorists against Chechnya or Russia? In fact, the international fighters of these country are nothing but an impediment to Pakistan & the Pakistan administration. Hence, many of the things international media outlets spew about Pakistan are pretty much false. It is harmful for everyone to make Pakistan the scapegoat for everything & overlook the real problems, & the underlying causes of the region. I suggest you read the initial post carefully once again, & then respond.

Regarding NW,neither Haqqani nor Kashmiri are from Uzbekistan, Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Germany, Arab nations etc. They are from Afg and Pakistan respectively and after the Waziristan accords three or four years back Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazir made sure most of the fighters from the assorted nationalities mentioned were removed from North and South Waziristan respectively so that the Pak Army doesn't attack them.

What remains there is predominantly a mix of Pak and Afghan tribals who indulge in CBT (Cross Border Terrorism) in Afghanistan.

Secondly as I said the crux of the article is this single line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan.

Meaning, don't stop supporting jihadi groups, they might help you in the future never mind the destruction they are causing in the present. The alleged 40,000 Pak lives doesn't matter and pervasive Islamism creeping inside the Pak society doesn't matter either.
 
The US has negotiated with the Taliban, & is brokering peace deals & power transferring mechanisms with them: as long as they distance themselves from the international Al-Qaeda network. Are they wrong to do that, & is Afghanistan wrong to accept that?

No,. neither of the above is wrong because it their country and Taliban are mostly Afghan tribesmen - but Islamabad trying to install a regime of their choice in Kabul by harboring terrorists in their soil (FATA) is wrong.

Anyway Afghanistan is not being silent like India and is responding effectively in K2NL areas.
 
Regarding NW,neither Haqqani nor Kashmiri are from Uzbekistan, Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Germany, Arab nations etc. They are from Afg and Pakistan respectively and the after the Waziristan accords three or four years back Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazir made sure most of the fighters from the assorted nationalities mentioned were removed from North and South Waziristan respectively so that the Pak Army doesn't attack them.

What remains there is predominantly a mix of Pak and Afghan tribals who indulge in CBT (Cross Border Terrorism) in Afghanistan.

Secondly as I said the crux of the article is this single line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan.

Meaning, don't stop supporting jihadi groups, they might help you in the future never mind the destruction they are causing in the present. The alleged 40,000 Pak lives don't matter and pervasive Islamism creeping inside the Pak society doesn't matter.

Are bhai, don't you understand? There are local Pashtun groups like the Haqqani network, Waziri group, TTP that give shelter to international Al-Qaeda fighters from Somalia, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Chechnya, Germany, & Arab nations.

No one is saying don't stop supporting groups, I am saying that it is imperative to maintain contact with them, have a hold over them. Big difference.

I suggest you read this thread, about the casualty figures in different Afghan provinces. Most of the casualties have NOT been caused by the Haqqani network or any of the groups operating from North Waziristan:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/115723-no-operation-north-waziristan-agency.html

Afghanistan is being attacked from all sides, North, South, West & the East. There were a huge number of terrorist attacks in Baghdis, Herat in recent times, on the border with Iran. There were huge number of terrorist attacks from Takhar, Balkh, Kunduz bordering with Uzbekistan & Tajikistan; these have nothing to do with Pakistan. Again, it is very easy to make Pakistan the scapegoat for all the problems in the world, when the Al-Qaeda network is still intact in the safe havens of Afghanistan's Kunar & Nuristan provinces in North Afghanistan.
 
No,. neither of the above is wrong because it their country and Taliban are mostly Afghan tribesmen - but Islamabad trying to install a regime of their choice in Kabul by harboring terrorists in their soil (FATA) is wrong.

Anyway Afghanistan is not being silent like India and is responding effectively in K2NL areas.

Again, you are misunderstanding a few things. There are local Pashtun Jihadi groups, & there are an international group of Al-Qaeda terrorists harbored by these groups. The US is fine with the local Pashtun groups as long as they break their alliance with Al-Qaeda terrorists. Al-Qaeda terrorists from Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Uzbekistan, Germany, Arab nations etc have no value to the Pakistan Administration, but are an impediment & a threat to them. The same terrorists the US pushed from Afghanistan into Pakistan post 9/11. Pakistan only supported certain local Pashtun groups in Afghanistan (the ones that the US is negotiating peace deals with right now), just like India supported the non-Pashtun Northern Alliance inside Afghanistan. Pakistan also supported certain Kashmiri Jihadis. But Pakistan was only concerned in trying to influence Afghanistan & Indian administered Kashmir, it did not have the international globalist Jihadi agenda that the Al-Qaeda fighters have. The fact that Pakistan did not have any Al-Qaeda fighters pre 9/11 is a validation of that. I hope you understood my point.
 
Are bhai, don't you understand? There are local Pashtun groups like the Haqqani network, Waziri group, TTP that give shelter to international Al-Qaeda fighters from Somalia, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Chechnya, Germany, & Arab nations.

First condition of the Waziristan accords signed by Maulvi Nazir in SW and Gul Bahadur in NW is the removal of foreign fighters from Waziristan and which they have done mostly. Rem are just Afghans and Pakistanis with a very little presence of other nationalities.

No one is saying don't stop supporting groups, I am saying that it is imperative to maintain contact with them, have a hold over them. Big difference.

Not a big difference - to have a Hold over them is achieved only by supporting them.

I suggest you read this thread, about the casualty figures in different Afghan provinces. Most of the casualties have NOT been caused by the Haqqani network or any of the groups operating from North Waziristan:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/115723-no-operation-north-waziristan-agency.html

Afghanistan is being attacked from all sides, North, South, West & the East. There were a huge number of terrorist attacks in Baghdis, Herat in recent times, on the border with Iran. There were huge number of terrorist attacks from Takhar, Balkh, Kunduz bordering with Uzbekistan & Tajikistan; these have nothing to do with Pakistan. Again, it is very easy to make Pakistan the scapegoat for all the problems in the world, when the Al-Qaeda network is still intact in the safe havens of Afghanistan's Kunar & Nuristan provinces in North Afghanistan.

Moot point - The casualties don't matter. What matters is Pak tries to influence Govt formation in Afghanistan by sheltering jihadis and terrorists in its soil.
 
First condition of the Waziristan accords signed by Maulvi Nazir in SW and Gul Bahadur in NW is the removal of foreign fighters from Waziristan and which they have done mostly. Rem are just Afghans and Pakistanis with a very little presence of other nationalities.

What proof do you have for this? There are still plenty of foreign fighters there.

Moot point - The casualties don't matter. What matters is Pak tries to influence Govt formation in Afghanistan by sheltering jihadis and terrorists in its soil.

Again, Pakistan has used Afghan Pashtun groups to influence Afghanistan, just like India used the NA to influence Afghanistan. My point is not about India or Afghanistan in this thread, but about dispelling some of the lies against Pakistan, such as Pakistan harbors international Al-Qaeda terrorists from different nations & supports its globalist Jihadi agenda over the world, attacking other nations. The lie that is being propagated that the Pakistan Administration supports international Chechen terrorists that attack Russia. The fact that even though the US says there are only 50-100 Al-Qaeda terrorists in Afghanistan, the Al-Qaeda is still perfectly intact in Northern Afghanistan, in the provinces of Kunar & Nuristan. As the US has accepted the local Pashtun groups in the end-game in Afghanistan (as long as they disassociate themselves from Al-Qaeda), the focus of this thread is on Al-Qaeda (not the Pashtuns or the Taliban) , & the lies & propaganda generated by the international media against Pakistani authorities in aiding AQ. Once the US occupation ends, the international AQ terrorists will leave the region, & then the future of Afghanistan will be determined by the local groups there. A scenario perfectly acceptable to the US. Pakistan is only involved in influencing the events in its immediate neighbors by using local groups, just like India wants to do (but that is a different discussion topic, this thread is about the lies propagated against Pakistan's alleged relationship with AQ). It does not have an international Islamist globalist agenda, & these allegations perpetrated against the Army are just ridiculous.
 
What proof do you have for this? There are still plenty of foreign fighters there.

See the demand of proof goes both ways - what proof you have they ARE there ? And again if they are there why is the Pak Army not acting on them ?

Again, Pakistan has used Afghan Pashtun groups to influence Afghanistan, just like India used the NA to influence Afghanistan. My point is not about India or Afghanistan in this thread, but about dispelling some of the lies against Pakistan, such as Pakistan harbors international Al-Qaeda terrorists from different nations & supports its globalist Jihadi agenda over the world, attacking other nations.

First it is not "has used". It is "has used and using".

Secondly the world thinks the bolded part is itself wrong. If that is correct I guess the allegations of Afg meddling in Balochistan is perfectly legitimate. Dont you think ?


The lie that is being propagated that the Pakistan Administration supports international Chechen terrorists that attack Russia. The fact that even though the US says there are only 50-100 Al-Qaeda terrorists in Afghanistan, the Al-Qaeda is still perfectly intact in Northern Afghanistan, in the provinces of Kunar & Nuristan. As the US has accepted the local Pashtun groups in the end-game in Afghanistan (as long as they disassociate themselves from Al-Qaeda), the focus of this thread is on Al-Qaeda (not the Pashtuns or the Taliban) , & the lies & propaganda generated by the international media against Pakistani authorities in aiding AQ. Once the US occupation ends, the international AQ terrorists will leave the region, & then the future of Afghanistan will be determined by the local groups there. A scenario perfectly acceptable to the US. Pakistan is only involved in influencing the events in its immediate neighbors by using local groups, just like India wants to do (but that is a different discussion topic, this thread is about the lies propagated against Pakistan's alleged relationship with AQ). It does not have an international Islamist globalist agenda, & these allegations perpetrated against the Army are just ridiculous.

Still the Good Jihadi, Bad Jihadi eh ? Paks never learn even after repeatedly burning their hand. Good luck to your country. Though the world does not do that.So it is not completely a lie.

BTW again through the bolded part India is perfectly legitimate if it tries to "influence" things in Pakistan right ?

Also it is not Al-Qaeda in K2NL areas, they are also the Taliban - specifically those displaced from Swat and other adjoining FATA areas.
 
See the demand of proof goes both ways - what proof you have they ARE there ? And again if they are there why is the Pak Army not acting on them ?

Maybe because foreign fighters are being killed in the region everyday? Do you want me to provide you links for that as well

Secondly the world thinks the bolded part is itself wrong. If that is correct I guess the allegations of Afg meddling in Balochistan is perfectly legitimate. Dont you think ?

Still the Good Jihadi, Bad Jihadi eh ? Paks never learn even after repeatedly burning their hand. Good luck to your country.

Again, this thread is about Al-Qaeda, not anyone else. When the US has brokered peace deals with local Pashtun groups, devised mechanisms to transfer power to them, asked the UN to take off the senior Taliban leaders' names off the list, it makes them pretty much irrelevant. Hence, the good Jihadi, bad Jihadi doesn't really matter. The actions of the US endorse that the Taliban are the good Jihadis, & the Al-Qaeda are the bad Jihadis. And anyways, let me reiterate: this thread is not about local Jihadi groups, this is about the international group of Al-Qaeda. Please focus on Al-Qaeda, instead of talking about local Pashtun groups, India, Balochistan or issues not related to this thread. This isn't the place.
 
Maybe because foreign fighters are being killed in the region everyday? Do you want me to provide you links for that as well

Killed with no Pak Army action ? Dont give the example of Drones which has nothing to do with Pakistan or in other words, the usage of which is not decided by Pakistan.

Again, this thread is about Al-Qaeda, not anyone else. When the US has brokered peace deals with local Pashtun groups, devised mechanisms to transfer power to them, asked the UN to take off the senior Taliban leaders' names off the list, it makes them pretty much irrelevant. Hence, the good Jihadi, bad Jihadi doesn't really matter. The actions of the US endorse that the Taliban are the good Jihadis, & the Al-Qaeda are the bad Jihadis. And anyways, let me reiterate: this thread is not about local Jihadi groups, this is about the international group of Al-Qaeda. Please focus on Al-Qaeda, instead of talking about local Pashtun groups, India, Balochistan or issues not related to this thread. This isn't the place.

You are confusing with the action of US and Pakistan. The US has the UNSC mandate to deal in Afghanistan which Pakistan lacks.And just because the US does doesn't give it a stamp of authority because we are all sane enough to know the reason behind the US actions.

Let me reiterate for you - there is no Good jihadi, bad jihadi and there is no better example than Illyas Kashmiri - the blue eyed boy of the establishment till a few years ago - who transformed into a despicable villain pretty soon.

And by the same argument BLA,BRA may be good jihadis for India and Afghanistan and Pakistan has to live with it. No use crying when you refuse to learn from your mistakes.

Pak has a future only if it foregoes and cracks down on "ALL" shades of jihadis and makes peace with its neighbours, else you are doomed to fall into the same grave you are plotting/digging for others.
 
Killed with no Pak Army action ? Dont give the example of Drones which has nothing to do with Pakistan or in other words, the usage of which is not decided by Pakistan.

The point I'm making is, there is no point in arguing whether the international Al-Qaeda terrorists are being killed by drones or by the Pakistan Army. We can talk about this for a long time, but the important point is that they are there. Period. And they weren't there pre 9/11. They were pushed inside Pakistan from Afghanistan by the NATO Forces. Pakistan has not used these international Al-Qaeda terrorists for gaining leverage in other countries like Chechnya, Russia, Uzbekistan etc.

You are confusing with the action of US and Pakistan. The US has the UNSC mandate to deal in Afghanistan which Pakistan lacks.And just because the US does doesn't give it a stamp of authority because we are all sane enough to know the reason behind the US actions.

Again, this thread isn't about the US or anyone else. This is specifically about Al-Qaeda.

Let me reiterate for you - there is no Good jihadi, bad jihadi and there is no better example than Illyas Kashmiri - the blue eyed boy of the establishment till a few years ago - who transformed into a villain.


And by the same argument BLA,BRA may be good jihadis for India and Afghanistan and Pakistan has to live with it. No use crying when you refuse to learn from your mistakes.

Again, no one is talking about a good or bad Jihadi on this thread. No one is talking about the Taliban or local groups here; or India or Balochistan. The topic of this thread is about the Al-Qaeda, so can we just stick to it please? If you want to talk about the Taliban, I'll gladly talk to you about it on some other thread, not this one. No need to diverge from the topic at hand. So can we just stick to the topic? Comprendo?
 

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