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Saka and Jauhar, the sole reason for the repeated defeats and downfall of Rajputs?

I think these were the reason why Rajputs didn't expand or couldn't repel invaders fully:
1) Fighting among themselves.
2) Too much honor while fighting. Following codes of conduct.
3) Happy with the kingdoms that they already have. Not looking to expand frontiers.
4) Only kshatriyas will fight which reduced number of warriors.
5) Poor tactics and strategy. Invaders were battle hardened and had more experience with fighting. The invaders were also brutal in their methods.
6) A lot of ego about themselves.
These attributes are counter productive to empire building. Did they exercise sufficient sovereignty in their claimed kingdoms ? I doubt. I see them as complacent warlords masked as kings. There is a fine line between strategic restrains and subservience. They are equivalents of modern day Arab kingdoms.
 
What does that matter

What did a weak Maratha empire who was bossing about equally weak other Indians get when Abdali or the British turned up?
It matters because you are laughing on Rajputs when your region had nothing to show for themselves. And now you bring Marathas in between. So you are just beating the bush, not making any sense and not contributing anything to this current discussion. In simple words, you are a troll and I don't think I need to answer to trolls as whatever I say, you'll keep speaking illogical. The thread was going good until as usual it got hijacked by you and others.
 
Rajjputs are highly overrated. They always used to be pro-establishment. They collaborated with the mughals as well as with the British whenever it suited them. Many of them worked as mercenaries against their own folks. Therefore, they never moved beyond their usual comfortzones. They simply had local warlords who called themselves kings. I rate the Marathis over Rajputs in any given time.

That is not factual. Rajputs suffered alot due to loyalty to Mughals, we lost land and prestige. Many Rajput clans even went into fighting guerilla war against the British. Some of our most famous clans were named for that period.

What does that matter

What did a weak Maratha empire who was bossing about equally weak other Indians get when Abdali or the British turned up?

Nothing to show, hehe. Like ruling India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, BD for 1,000 years at its height. Some arsonists' scions call this nothing.
 
I don't agree with everything below but nevertheless an interesting article:

India’s Hindu Samurai: The British Empire’s Love Affair with the Rajputs
Lovett-Rajput-Regiments.jpg

Providence could not have endowed a more difficult setting for India’s greatest romance. Along the periphery of the Thar Desert, beyond the undulating dunes and thorny brush, are the Rajput nations. From Gujarat in the west until Delhi and the foothills of Kashmir, there existed since time immemorial glittering kingdoms ruled by fighting men. Yet it was in the Indian subcontinent’s arid north, the realm of the harrier and desert fox, where Rajputana came to be. It was a land where rugged noblemen hunted game, built magnificent strongholds, and repelled the tides of conquest.

They are the ‘sons of kings’, divided among clans whose ancestry dates so far beyond recorded time that descendants claim divine origins. Among the Rajput clans, some trace their descent from the Sun, others the Moon, and still others believed their lineage came from fire.

Until modern times, the prevailing consensus as to the Rajputs’ point of origin was an Aryan descent from India’s mythical age. This unsubstantiated belief in a shared heritage with white Europeans later provided ample justification for the British Empire’s designs on the subcontinent. Furthermore, no single source gives a complete index of the Rajput families. The English soldier and adventurer Lt Col James Tod’s Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan is the seminal volume about these soldier-aristocrats and remains the best introduction to the subject.

Divided among three dozen clans and even more sub-clans, many notable surnames stand distinguished in the historical record. Consider the Chauhan clan, who once ruled Delhi before the Afghan conqueror Muhammad Guri vanquished them in the 12th Century. It is the Guhilot clan, however, who would conceive of India’s greatest fortress: Chittorgarh. Seized from its former masters whose fortunes ebbed with the decline of an ancient empire – of which many are found across India – the Guhilots held Chittorgarh for several centuries and grew wealthy from its country, the kingdom of Mewar.

Rajputanian-Rajput-British-India.jpg

“The Sacred Lake at Ulwar, Rajputana, India”. Photograph taken by Herbert Ponting (1870-1935).
But why did Will Durant, in his The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage, compare the Rajputs to Samurai? Perhaps it was their preoccupation with honour, a trait manifested in another well-known clan, the Sisodyas, who in the early 14th Century replaced the Guhilots as overlords of Mewar. Like the Samurai, the Rajputs had their own code of conduct. Theirs was detailed in no less than the Mahabharata, Hindu civilisation’s epic poem. In it, the Hindu Kshatriya, or warrior caste, were beseeched to always fight fair and observe correctness in their doings. No conquest should be followed by plunder, no victory accompanied by the dishonour of one’s foes. Importantly, combat was a rite where cool heads prevailed. “A Man should fight righteously without yielding to wrath or intending to slay,” the Mahabharata read.

On the other hand, it was Tod the chronicler of Rajasthan who found parallels between the Rajputs and European knights, a comparison that no doubt resonated with his fellow Englishmen raised on Walter Scott and Cervantes, for whom the echoes of medieval pageantry rang with sweet nostalgia. Meanwhile, another historian, Mountstuart Elphinstone, agreed with Tod’s portrayal yet drew a different assessment of the Rajputs. “They had not the high-strained sentiments and artificial refinements of our knights,” Elphinstone concluded, while lauding their fighting spirit.

The warrior caste, defined
One of the first serious writers on India, James Mill, philosopher John Stuart Mill’s father, produced The History of British India, a groundbreaking work that sought to explain the nuances of the Hindu world.

Mill claimed that once land ownership supplanted pastoral society, it was imperative for a religious class, or the priestly Brahmin, to coexist with fighting men who would protect them: the fabled Kshatriya. “To bear arms is the peculiar duty of the Cshatriya [sic] caste,” he wrote. “And their maintenance is derived from the provision made by the sovereign for his soldiers.”

Below these exalted social strata, according to Mill, were two lower castes of common labourers and even less reputable, and not mentioned, are the untouchables.
The provisions Mill referred to, in the case of the Rajput, were more than adequate. The quintessential Rajput warrior, middle-aged and seasoned by at least several campaigns, was a swarthy gentleman fond of the hunt and the pleasant diversions befitting a nobleman.

Rajput-prince-Mughal-Empire.jpg

A Rajput prince leads a lion hunt, unknown artist, 1675 – 1699
His face adorned by a flowing moustache, head wrapped in a turban dyed the colours of his clan, the Rajput was a dapper fellow. Come war time, a steel helmet crowned his head and astride his mount the warrior sallied forth with a lance and a round shield – the latter perfect for single combat.

When it came to the preferred mode of fighting, cavalry raids were a perennial favourite and very effective against their Turkic adversaries. Once mounted on either a Kathiawari or Marwari horse, Rajput formations wrought havoc on enemy formations.

Always prepared to meet his end, the Rajput fought in a shirt of mail and tied around his waist was a bright coloured sash that held two sheathed talwars (curved swords akin to the Arabian scimitar), and the fearsome katar dagger for dealing mortal blows at close quarters. Other warriors preferred the heavier khanda, a lengthy single-edged blade similar to a cutlass that was ideal for slicing through armour.

In later centuries the Rajputs would embrace the firearm. When the matchlock arrived in India via the Mughals, it was widely adopted and used until the late 19th Century. Despite this seeming prowess, Mill, for some inexplicable reason, was quick to dismiss the fighting prowess of Hindus. “Yet has India given way to every conqueror,” he observed.

This conclusion betrays a lapse in Mill’s scholarship. Apparently, he failed to acknowledge how numerous Rajput clans repelled invasions from the time of Alexander the Great to the Persian Nadir Shah in the 18th Century. But deriding the Hindu was a distasteful consequence of British imperialism. The irony is during the British Raj in the latter 19th Century, it was fashionable to commend so-called “warrior” or “martial” races within Indian society.

A dated but superb example is The Martial Races of India by Lieutenant General George MacMunn, written and published after the Great War. Another similar text is The Sepoy by Edmund Candler published around the very same period.

Both Candler and MacMunn were in agreement as to the valour and toughness of the Rajputs and the Jats, the Gurkhas and the Sikhs, even the “Mussulman” Pathans and the Mughals.

Rajputs-martial-races-British-Empires.jpg

“Rajpoots” from William Johnson’s Photographs of Western India. Volume I. Costumes and Characters, 1862
Constant invasion
These clans formed a prosperous civilisation, until the 18th Century when enterprising warlords across Central Asia saw India as a source of loot for their armies. The geography of the Rajput kingdoms, including Mewar, meant the Kshatriyas had no choice but to thwart these onslaughts or be dispossessed.

While Rajput cavalry could best the seasoned Turks, Afghans, and Mongols, many catastrophic defeats were also dealt by the would-be conquerors. Of ruinous portent was the arrival of Zahiruddin Babur (14 February 1483 – 26 December 1530), who sought to expand his tenuous control over Kabul by annexing Delhi and its surroundings. Babur might have perished at an early age, but he left a son, Humayun (6 March 1508 – January 1556), to finish what he started. The rise of the Mughals signalled the greatest tribulation forced on Rajputana’s kingdoms.

It was during the reign of Akbar (5 October 1542 – 12 October 1605), considered the most accomplished Muslim ruler in his era, when Mewar’s ruling Sisodya clan was humbled and their country almost ruined.

Having failed in compelling a union with his growing empire, the cosmopolitan Akbar sought to annex the kingdom of Mewar. It was sheer luck that the current Sisodya Maharana Udai Singh II was a weakling and once the siege commenced on October 1567, he quickly abandoned the fortress.

Akbar used the enormous wealth at his disposal to raise an army equipped with cannon and musket. The five-month struggle of Chittorgarh, where fighters from several clans held fast, was brutal. Despite having mined a portion of its impregnable walls and inflicted horrific casualties on the defenders, the Rajputs were unbowed. It was only their ideal of honour that doomed them to suicide at the last moment. The men died fighting while their families committed Jauhar, grisly ritual suicide by self-immolation.

Akbar’s victory was the third and last time Chittorgarh fell. Further disgrace followed in the Battle of Haldighati, where Mughal arms prevailed once again.
Their forces scattered, it was the renegade Sisodya Maharana Pratap Singh (9 May 1540 – 29 January 1597) who carried the red banner of Mewar. Maharana Pratap, as he is known today, was such an ardent rebel and tactician he became a folk hero.

Siege-of-Chittorgarh-Rajputs.jpg

A mine explodes during the Siege of Chittorgarh, created circa 1590
Maharana Pratap’s struggle continued after his death until Akbar’s son Jahangir (30 August 1569 – 7 November 1627) grew weary of fighting the Rajputs. Sparing the sword, he signed a treaty with Maharana Pratap’s son and from then on lavished gifts upon the Sisodyas. The bewildering sums of these bribes are described with detail in Jahangir’s memoirs.

In a rare gesture of magnanimity, Jahangir even returned the regal Chittorgarh fortress to its former owners. But could the Rajputs survive the oppression of European colonialism?

They did, and it led to a new age of prosperity for these landed Kshatriyas. Once again, it is Tod’s Annals that explains why the Rajputs, having likewise suffered from the decline of the Mughals, sought help from the British Empire.

As early as 1775, in fact, a battalion of Rajput riflemen were levied by the East India Company, whose grip on the subcontinent was now uncontested after besting the French during the Seven Year’s War. By 1817 this core unit became the Rajputana Rifles, the foremost senior regiment in the Indian armed forces.

From one empire to another
It wasn’t until the 19th Century when Rajputana’s leading clans sought to federate with British India. A deal was brokered by the Maharanas and Charles Theophilus Metcalfe, a special aid to the acting British Governor-General in Delhi.

The reason was entirely practical, since by 1818 Rajputana had been economically ruined by the collapse of Mughal power, repeated invasions from Persia, as well as the resurgent Marathas who wished to carve out their own piece of empire.

Once the British controlled the whole of India, the Rajputs proved willing partners in governing the small kingdoms throughout this vast colonial possession. Their usefulness quadrupled as soldiers and allies, while the habits of the Rajput nobility also mixed well with their British counterparts.

The attraction, by any account, was mutual – this sentiment is found in the aforementioned The Martial Races of India by MacMunn. MacMunn believed the Rajputs were the Aryans of Central Asia and belonged to the same racial stock as modern Europeans. “They are the descendants of the warriors who carried forward the Aryan exodus and influx,” MacMunn concludes, before distinguishing the Rajputs from the Jats, the Tartars, and Mongols.

MacMunn also found the Rajputs to be a fair race, admiring their features that had the “Aryan beauty and physiognomy of the Greek.” In MacMunn’s view, at least, these favoured Kshatriya were white men too.

Rajput-warriors-Dehli-British-Empire.jpg

Four Rajput warriors in Dehli by Shepherd & Robertsonm, circa 1859
Into the world wars and beyond
Despite the understated contempt among the British for Hindus in general, the British Indian Army was a force to be reckoned with. In World War I alone, 1.3 million Indians fought in every theatre and the Rajputana Rifles distinguished themselves in France, Palestine, and Mesopotamia (now Iraq).

Come World War II, it was in East Africa where the Rajputana Rifles rose to the occasion despite the brutality of modern warfare. During the struggle for the commanding heights of Keren, in Eritrea, which was controlled by the Italians, a company from the 4th Battalion, 6th Rajputana Rifles lost its officer in a night-time assault.
Undaunted, the second-in-command Subedar Richpal Ram (20 August 1899 – 12 February 1941) led the company with “great dash and gallantry” in an uphill battle. Having reached their objective, they beat “several counterattacks” until they became low on ammunition and were forced to withdrew back to their lines.
The following day, mortally injured on the latest attempt to recapture lost ground, Richpal Ram fought and led his men until he died of his wounds. His actions won him the Victoria Cross and his name is inscribed on the Keren Cremation Memorial.

Come independence and bloody partition, the Rajputana Rifles fought every major war with Muslim Pakistan and were even deployed on counter-insurgency operations in Sri Lanka and Jammu-Kashmir.

The warrior kings of Akbar’s reign and James Tod’s book are long gone. Their weapons remain unused, their martial valour unneeded, as the noble Rajputs gently surrendered to the modern age. Nonetheless, In the first year of World War I, British General O’Moore Creagh summed up their character with exquisite praise: “They are, and ever have been, honourable, brave, and true.” His words fit the Rajputs to a tee.

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/hi...british-empires-love-affair-with-the-rajputs/




thank you Rajput and the Pashtuns garnered immense European interest ..Uzbekis,Mughals not so much.-Olaf Caroe's Pathans is also a nice read.....
 
Why are you so obsessed with saqa and jahur? These long dead traditions even not followed by Hindu Rajput?
Can anybody imagine that those who practice these traditions are actual decent and respectable people instead of having twisted minds?
Do you yourself wnat to commit saqqa as you are so obsessed with it and every week you have an article related to it.
 
Uzbekis,Mughals not so much.-

Yes, great cities of Bukhara and Samarqand are just mirages in the desert. Emir Timur was just an invisible man. Mughal empire and Islamic dynasties which ruled Southwest and South Asia for 1000 years are just wisps in the air.

Lol. I laugh whenever Indians discuss history.

British are no more but a tiny island, but you people think so much of them. Afterall they nurtured you and made you the Hindus you are today. Full of venom for everything Muslim, Islamic, Turk, Arab, Persian, or Afghan.

What does that matter

What did a weak Maratha empire who was bossing about equally weak other Indians get when Abdali or the British turned up?

Most of the major and important Rajput clans, like those in Punjab, converted to Islam. In Central Punjab today, you will find many Rajputs, they are the other big community in this area besides Arain.

If Mughals were the crown and throne of the empire, Rajputs were the swords and shields of the Mughal/Gurkhani Sultanat.

Don't care about historical revisionists in India. Accuracy was never a trait of Indians.
 
Yes, great cities of Bukhara and Samarqand are just mirages in the desert. Emir Timur was just an invisible man. Mughal empire and Islamic dynasties which ruled Southwest and South Asia for 1000 years are just wisps in the air.

Lol. I laugh whenever Indians discuss history.

British are no more but a tiny island, but you people think so much of them. Afterall they nurtured you and made you the Hindus you are today. Full of venom for everything Muslim, Islamic, Turk, Arab, Persian, or Afghan.



Most of the major and important Rajput clans, like those in Punjab, converted to Islam. In Central Punjab today, you will find many Rajputs, they are the other big community in this area besides Arain.

If Mughals were the crown and throne of the empire, Rajputs were the swords and shields of the Mughal/Gurkhani Sultanat.

Don't care about historical revisionists in India. Accuracy was never a trait of Indians.


Did you not see my mention of Olaf Caroe's admiration of the Pashtun race?

My recent thread on the various empires on the subcontinent may interest you...

Cheers

You can say that they weren't ambitious in the sense that they were happy as long as they got to rule their own kingdoms. Even before the Muslim invasions, I don't think the Rajputs were looking to expand into East India or South India.


Umm the Kannauj Triangle?


yeah but in the immediate 100-150 years before Ghaznavi there was lull in the subcontinent..this led to stasis in military technology,tactics,arms,stable strength
 
Nomads have numbers???

People dont realise that nomads have always been in lower numbers compared to civilsations. Look at Central Asian Turkic countries and Mongolia. They have low populations with few urban areas.

Nomadic success of the Turks and Mongols is the element of moving around and living off the land not to mention their logistics system is on the move while civilsations had urban areas and places where they have to supply. Logistics was mainly in cities when you drift to far off your logsitics system can crumble.

Turks, Mongols and the Huns and other nomads conquered quickly due to emphasis on cavalry power.

Does not mean nomads are unstoppable because nomads dont have the numbers or even production of civilsations to keep up hence why they collapse pretty quickly thats why most nomads have either been assimilated or became sedentary.

Best examples is the Ottomans they moved away from nomadic traditions to become more sedentary. Being sedentary actually helps your empire last longer. Thats why out of all Turkic Empires the Ottomans the Mughals lasted the longest. Mughals lasted 300 years thats pretty good for a nomadic origin empire while their grandfathers the timurids collapsed within 100 years or even less due to Timurs death.
 
Nomads have numbers???

People dont realise that nomads have always been in lower numbers compared to civilsations. Look at Central Asian Turkic countries and Mongolia. They have low populations with few urban areas.

Nomadic success of the Turks and Mongols is the element of moving around and living off the land not to mention their logistics system is on the move while civilsations had urban areas and places where they have to supply. Logistics was mainly in cities when you drift to far off your logsitics system can crumble.

Turks, Mongols and the Huns and other nomads conquered quickly due to emphasis on cavalry power.

Does not mean nomads are unstoppable because nomads dont have the numbers or even production of civilsations to keep up hence why they collapse pretty quickly thats why most nomads have either been assimilated or became sedentary.

Best examples is the Ottomans they moved away from nomadic traditions to become more sedentary. Being sedentary actually helps your empire last longer. Thats why out of all Turkic Empires the Ottomans the Mughals lasted the longest. Mughals lasted 300 years thats pretty good for a nomadic origin empire while their grandfathers the timurids collapsed within 100 years or even less due to Timurs death.
Nomads have good mobilization ability numbers. For example, when Mongol-Tatars attacked Rus in 13th ct. Russian principalities had small professional feudal detachments of local princes, bishops etc. They were good equipped and trained (about the same as Western European knights) but did not have single command and almost did not know how to fight together in large contingents. And their mobilization ability was around 5% of population. If en enemy killed such professional warriors - you will not find replacement to them. At the same time in nomadic civilisations almost every man is a warrior, trained and equipped as an excellent horse archer. And they knew how to fight as large single army under single command. If an enemy killed this warriors the hord will give you other warriors.
 
Ok so I've been divided on this practice previously. While it made sense to preserve the honor from women's perspective in dire situations.
It was also the very reason almost all Rajput battles will end up in loss for the one's defending their home, because the fate for women and children was already known. The men will be demoralized from the get go and the moment there is a "possibility of loss", the jauhar would have already taken place, this ensuring the loss.
While if we look at the history there are so many times where a loss was converted to victory through tactics and military genius.

Not to forget this kind of practice had more to do with manly ego and their control over women (who were considered lesser beings), and thus attaching their honor with the women. The men will ensure the jauhar takes place (forcing their women into it at occasions) before they embark on saka and not a side by side thingy as movies will have people believe.

Here is one account of the event from a first hand witness.

One account of jauhar comes from a person we can be certain saw its aftermath within a few hours of the ritual’s completion. This is from the Baburnama, composed by the emperor himself. After defeating Rana Sanga in 1527, Babur set out consolidating and recapturing territories that had been part of the sultanate. Among the foes he overcame was Medini Rao, who held the fort of Chanderi in Central India. On January 29, 1528, Babur’s forces attacked the well-guarded fort. After his artillery made no impression on the citadel’s stone walls, he concentrated on a vulnerable spot where a conduit had been constructed to supply water to the fort. Once this location was taken, Rajput resistance melted away. Babur writes:

“The reason so many were hastening from the ramparts was that they had realised they were going to lose and, having put their wives and womenfolk to the sword and resigning themselves to death, came out stripped to fight... Two or three hundred infidels entered Medini Rao’s quarters where they killed each other almost to the last one by having one man hold the sword while the others willingly bent their necks. And thus most of them went to hell. Through God’s grace such a famous fortress was conquered within two or three gharis without standards or drums and without any fighting in earnest.”


Personally, I would rather have those women trained in Archery and warfare and either have them as active participants in the battle, provided they would die if their men lose anyway, or escape the field and live to fight back and carry the legacy.
I know some of them were trained, but what was the point of it when the end was to jump into fire instead of being able to use that learning.
As Alexander the Great expressed long time back - what a strange country it is Selucus..

If they lose a single soldier they feel like they have lost an army....

If they lose a single jet they feel like Rafael is the god to save them....
 
Nomads have good mobilization ability numbers. For example, when Mongol-Tatars attacked Rus in 13th ct. Russian principalities had small professional feudal detachments of local princes, bishops etc. They were good equipped and trained (about the same as Western European knights) but did not have single command and almost did not know how to fight together in large contingents. And their mobilization ability was around 5% of population. If en enemy killed such professional warriors - you will not find replacement to them. At the same time in nomadic civilisations almost every man is a warrior, trained and equipped as an excellent horse archer. And they knew how to fight as large single army under single command. If an enemy killed this warriors the hord will give you other warriors.

Lets not forget the use of psychological warfare from the Mongols, Turks and the Huns. If they are gonna make people surrender and submit you gotta be brutal and ruthlessness.

Nomads were always on the move hence why their element of speed and surprised their enemies.

Abbassids were actually shocked when the Mongols came knocking down into Baghdad many thought they would not survive the harsh terrain. Abbassids actually thought it would take months for the Mongols to reach them which meant they had enough time to prepare.

Nomadic armies also weakened many places through raiding. These raids weakened settlements not to mention sucked up manpower too if you think about it.

In the end civilsation was too strong.
 
Rajput were valiant but poor strategists. Their greatest contribution is that they stopped the Islamic invasions and were extremely proud of their culture, heritage and religion. The Arab Islamic culture swept across Sindh and much of Punjab after they conquered the Persians but it stopped at Rajputana. Then for a couple thousand square kilometers it is Indic civilization till East Bengal starts which itself has more Indic shades than Islamic. Of course some lesser Rajput did convert but real Rajputs tend to look down upon such turncoats.
 
Nothing to show, hehe. Like ruling India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, BD for 1,000 years at its height. Some arsonists' scions call this nothing.
Funny how Pakistanis take credit of Afghan, Turk, Uzbek invaders and like to associate with them. But at the same time, Pakistanis hate the very Afghans that they have named their missiles after. Just to let you know, Mughals ruled your land as well. Even Hindus, Buddhists have ruled your land. But of course, Pakistan history starts from the invasion of bin Qasim.

Tell me, apart from Ranjit Singh (Sikh empire) and the Hindu and Buddhist Shai dynasties, what dynasties do you have to show for from your region? Will you keep hiding behind the back of Mughals lol and consider that 'you' guys ruled India. Yaar koi khud ka to start-up hona chahiye ya nahi? @Juggernaut_is_here @Jackdaws @Joe Shearer

It's like Indian/Pakistani Christians considering that the ruled whole subcontinent for 150 years just because Britishers were Christians lol.

And why don't you let Afghanistan occupy Pakistan then right now? After all, they are Muslim. Don't you look at everything from religious lens?
 
Funny how Pakistanis take credit of Afghan, Turk, Uzbek invaders and like to associate with them. But at the same time, Pakistanis hate the very Afghans that they have named their missiles after. Just to let you know, Mughals ruled your land as well. Even Hindus, Buddhists have ruled your land. But of course, Pakistan history starts from the invasion of bin Qasim.

Tell me, apart from Ranjit Singh (Sikh empire) and the Hindu and Buddhist Shai dynasties, what dynasties do you have to show for from your region? Will you keep hiding behind the back of Mughals lol and consider that 'you' guys ruled India. Yaar koi khud ka to start-up hona chahiye ya nahi? @Juggernaut_is_here @Jackdaws @Joe Shearer

It's like Indian/Pakistani Christians considering that the ruled whole subcontinent for 150 years just because Britishers were Christians lol.

And why don't you let Afghanistan occupy Pakistan then right now? After all, they are Muslim. Don't you look at everything from religious lens?

Technically, Akbar was born in present day Pak but I think he was born in the palace / fort of a Hindu Maharaja. That's about it.
 

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