Question About Jinnah

[PakistaniJunior]

I want to be better educated and to understand history and current events. As far as I am concerned, my aim is simply to be better educated.

I don't want to be pulled into any foreign disputes. History shows how dangerous such a thing is.

That being said... there are issues where difference of opinion is acceptable and there are issues where certain things are beyond the pale of what is acceptable.

For any decent person, I think the RSS ideology is clearly beyond the pale of what is acceptable.

I absolutely don't want to say anything against India and I feel very warmly towards India. I respect India, I admire its freedom struggle, the depth of its achievements in philosophy, its traditional pluralism and much about its culture and history. God willing, I will always feel a deep respect for India.

For me it is like Italy and Germany. I actually much respect Mussolini for his contribution to defending Spain against Communism and for his support of General Franco. God willing, I will never forget what Mussolini did for Spain. It is another subject but I am staunchly a supporter of Franco. The Communists in Spain were violating and murdering nuns but the international media doesn't talk about that. The thousands of Italian troops sent by Mussolini risked their lives and many of them died in helping defend Spain against the atrocities that were being committed by the Communists who were backed by Stalin.

As for Germany, Germany is the land of Immanual Kant and Hegel. It is a place with high achievements in the field of philosophy. Germany is not defined by the mistakes that were made.

India and Hinduism are not defined by what is happening today. A sad and dark chapter is being written in the history of India.

Italy did some wrong things (I agree with Mussolini supporting Franco in Spain but of course I do not agree with the invasion of Ethiopia) and Germany did some very wrong stuff but that does not eliminate what is good in the history of those countries.

No matter what India does, India is still the land of Gandhi (as well as numerous others who participated in the freedom movement), of the struggle against the British and of an ancient culture with roots that stretch back thousands of years. I respect the rights of Hindus, I understand that they've had crimes committed against them and they have a right to defend their rights and their dignity- but none of that necessitates promoting bigotry against minorities and against South Asian Muslims.

I cannot hate India and I am sure that Indians will one day understand that this RSS stuff was a mistake.

I don't want to say anything against India but I do not feel that I can sit back and act as though this RSS-propagated bigotry is something that is acceptable. I cannot act as though the propagation of racist and religious hatred against South Asian Muslims is acceptable. I respect India and I don't want to go against India but I feel that the RSS stuff is forcing me to have to say something- not against India but against the bigotry. I eagerly await the day when all this RSS stuff is reduced to being a fringe element and when India gets away from this move towards extremism.

That is about as much as I'd like to say. I am not against India and I respect Hindus but I have no choice but to be against the RSS stuff.

"But if after this you still chose to view them in a softer light then that is entirely upto you."

As far as the RSS stuff, viewing the RSS ideology in a soft light is out of the question for me. I have the book you cited, I have looked into the RSS stuff and what I've said are my conclusions after having studied the issue.

I think the India you loved and respected is dead at the hands of the extremists i have mentioned beforehand. RSS ideology has spread and it is supported by the Majority of Indians today.

Anywho, i didn't force you to believe our side. Believe what your intelligence beckons. You may think Pakistanis are just biased over everything and anything Indian but what you are unable to see is that Pakistanis generally do not have any beef with indians outside of Kashmir. While Indians continuously try to poke holes into our identity, country, heritage and history and so on so forth. What we see is different from what you're able to see because you aren't able to understand the language and people as deeply as we can. I was like you, i believed both sides had biased views of the other and i too wanted to reach a conclusion from a neutral point of you.

But Alas the evidence of the gross human rights violations againt IOK Kashmiris and Indian Muslims, Indians' behaviors regarding Pakistan and anything relating to Pakistan. Their height of ignorance and their condescending attitudes to us. It all piles up to just one thing, India and Pakistan cannot be at peace with one another so long as India is at the hands of such people as it is today. When you're at the recieving end of this, then you'll understand but i'm afraid as a foreigner, you won't really understand it as much as you want to.

That being said, I never said that Hinduism itself is at fault here. It's the Hindutva ideology that is at fault here.

Anywho Good luck ^^

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

I think the India you loved and respected is dead at the hands of the extremists i have mentioned beforehand. RSS ideology has spread and it is supported by the Majority of Indians today.

Anywho, i didn't force you to believe our side. Believe what your intelligence beckons. You may think Pakistanis are just biased over everything and anything Indian but what you are unable to see is that Pakistanis generally do not have any beef with indians outside of Kashmir. While Indians continuously try to poke holes into our identity, country, heritage and history and so on so forth. What we see is different from what you're able to see because you aren't able to understand the language and people as deeply as we can. I was like you, i believed both sides had biased views of the other and i too wanted to reach a conclusion from a neutral point of you.

But Alas the evidence of the gross human rights violations againt IOK Kashmiris and Indian Muslims, Indians' behaviors regarding Pakistan and anything relating to Pakistan. Their height of ignorance and their condescending attitudes to us. It all piles up to just one thing, India and Pakistan cannot be at peace with one another so long as India is at the hands of such people as it is today. When you're at the recieving end of this, then you'll understand but i'm afraid as a foreigner, you won't really understand it as much as you want to.

That being said, I never said that Hinduism itself is at fault here. It's the Hindutva ideology that is at fault here.

Anywho Good luck ^^

Nothing I said was meant critically against you and nothing I said was meant to indicate anyone being biased against Indians.

Of course I have my own third point of view.

However, nothing I said was meant as a criticism against you or meant as an accusation- direct or implied- of bias on your part.

I of course have a third viewpoint and I absolutely have a right to be neutral. Nothing was meant in criticism against you nothing was meant to suggest anyone being biased against anyone.

If I make a distinction between Hinduism and Hindutva, none of that is meant against you. I simply want to be clear that I am not anti-India or anti-Hindu. That is of course not meant to imply that you are anti-Hindu. It wasn't meant to imply anything like that and I believe I may have been misunderstood. It was you who first drew the distinction and I agree with the distinction that you made.

 

[t1000]

Certainly Modi and Jinnah are of same family; they both want a pure version. Both build their countries on the hatred of the other, in spite of what their words say.
I always laugh inside when pakistanis tell me, "See jinnah was right"
You !diots Modi is the hindu jinnah. You are essentially saying Modi is right.

 

[313ghazi]

@Omar Al-Deek I think the first thing you need to understand that in India, Jinnah is a dirty word. For them Muhammad Ali Jinnah is someone who "tore apart" their "nation" along religious lines. The fact their nation never existed beyond being the limits of British colonial control is lost on them.

When they describe Modi as the BJP Jinnah, they're trying to make out that Modi is destroying India, trying to make it Hindu-only, and thereby suggesting that Pakistan was created as Muslim-only, which is incorrect.

so why are they wrong to describe Modi as BJP Jinnah?

1. Jinnah was a relatively secular man. He was a Muslim, he recognised the importance of the Muslim identity, but he worked with that identity as a political identity, rather than a theological identity. The man who created a Muslim nation, wasn't an Islamist.

2. He never intended Pakistan to be Muslim only - he wanted Muslims of British India, to have their own rule, so they were not subjugated by Hinduvta extremists - ie people like Modi. The flag of our nation was designed with minorities in mind (the white stripe) and he clearly spoke of people's rights to go about worship freely without intervention by the state.

I suggest you watch this series of short videos put out by ISPR this year about the creation of Pakistan. You will see a short summary of the thinking and circumstances that led to Pakistan. Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the flag bearer and the front man for Pakistan, we should be eternally grateful for him, but there were so many others who pushed the idea, for an array of different reasons too.

Story of Paksitan

ISPR released a multi-episode documentary series (7 episodes) based on the Book: Struggle & Creation of Pakistan, by Dr. Riaz Ahmed. Each episode encompasses...

www.youtube.com

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

But why not ? After all you like Mussolini who was a fascist, and RSS is fascist too.



I don't know how true is the underlined but the international media doesn't much talk about the genocide against communists and their sympathizers in Indonesia too. The perpetrator was the Western / CIA puppet, right-winger, Suharto and his mullah-guided bunch killed up to a million communists / leftists and sympathizers. Maybe more.

I was not expecting that the reds would show up!

¡Viva Franco!

As for you seeming to question the fact that the reds were violating and murdering nuns in Spain..... it is an established fact. But like I said it isn't covered in the international media.

Yes, I appreciate Mussolini for helping defend Spain against the Communists.

I have a serious problem with Communists murdering people in Spain just for being Catholics.

I think that Catholics in Spain have a right to not be butchered by psychopathic Communists so that means I support RSS promoting hatred against Muslims in India?

That is not the case at all. I don't wish harm on Indian Muslims or Spanish Catholics. In both instances, I want religious people to be protected.

The Communists have a history of murdering religious people.

I support General Franco and I am proud to support his fight to save Spain from the Communists. And I appreciate Mussolini for sending troops to help General Franco.

However, I am against the RSS ideology. Franco is way different than the RSS. Franco, in fact, was supported by Muslim soldiers from Morocco and used to pay to send Muslims on Hajj. Franco was not promoting anti-Muslim bigotry and in fact promoted peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Catholics and mutual respect between the two. Franco was fighting to protect Spain against a Communist takeover and protecting Catholics against anti-Catholic persecution at the hands of the reds. He wasn't promoting for the Spanish to persecute any religious minority.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

@Omar Al-Deek I think the first thing you need to understand that in India, Jinnah is a dirty word. For them Muhammad Ali Jinnah is someone who "tore apart" their "nation" along religious lines. The fact their nation never existed beyond being the limits of British colonial control is lost on them.

When they describe Modi as the BJP Jinnah, they're trying to make out that Modi is destroying India, trying to make it Hindu-only, and thereby suggesting that Pakistan was created as Muslim-only, which is incorrect.

so why are they wrong to describe Modi as BJP Jinnah?

1. Jinnah was a relatively secular man. He was a Muslim, he recognised the importance of the Muslim identity, but he worked with that identity as a political identity, rather than a theological identity. The man who created a Muslim nation, wasn't an Islamist.

2. He never intended Pakistan to be Muslim only - he wanted Muslims of British India, to have their own rule, so they were not subjugated by Hinduvta extremists - ie people like Modi. The flag of our nation was designed with minorities in mind (the white stripe) and he clearly spoke of people's rights to go about worship freely without intervention by the state.

I suggest you watch this series of short videos put out by ISPR this year about the creation of Pakistan. You will see a short summary of the thinking and circumstances that led to Pakistan. Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the flag bearer and the front man for Pakistan, we should be eternally grateful for him, but there were so many others who pushed the idea, for an array of different reasons too.

Story of Paksitan

ISPR released a multi-episode documentary series (7 episodes) based on the Book: Struggle & Creation of Pakistan, by Dr. Riaz Ahmed. Each episode encompasses...

www.youtube.com

ah, JazakAllahkhair. I will watch the documentary later on insha'Allah

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

What was it that made him change his mind?

Jinnah wanted a United india but with Muslims given representation according to percentage of their Population which was around 30%, in Parliament of India when it got freedom from Britishers, but Nehru declined thats what made him change his mind

 

[313ghazi]

ah, JazakAllahkhair. I will watch the documentary later on insha'Allah

Jinnah wanted a United india but with Muslims given representation according to percentage of their Population which was around 30%, in Parliament of India when it got freedom from Britishers, but Nehru declined thats what made him change his mind

Also if you watch the video series on ISPR that I posted, you'll see reference to a rise on Hinduvta violence against Muslims, imposition of Hindu culture and religious practices on Muslims in regions where they were not the majority. These reports were a sign of what was to come - so it pushed the need for an independent Muslim state.

 

[Musalman]

I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.

Narendra Modi is India's Hindu Jinnah, following two-nation theory: Former Assam CM Tarun Gogoi

GUWAHATI: Calling Prime Minister Narendra Modi India's "Hindu Jinnah", former Assam chief minister Tarun Gogoi on Monday accused him of following the

www.newindianexpress.com

Shashi Tharoor kicks up row with 'Hindu Pakistan' jibe

Congress, however, disapproves of his comment; BJP calls it “extraordinary” as “it is an attack on the Indian democracy and Hindus.”

www.thehindu.com

Jinnah was a liberal man. He respected other person religion. He fought for Pakistan but when Pakistan was created he told all people in that area that you are now cease to be Hindu Muslim etc.

But yes Modi is making India Pakistan of 1977 to 1988. Modi is India's Ziaul Haq, the bigot general who used religion for his rule. Made Pakistan intolerate. We remained in that pit for quite some time but we are now gradually getting out of that pit. While India with its Modiul Haq is getting into that pit of intolerance.

I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Read this book about Jinnah its a good book.

Amazon.com

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.

No offence taken, you are just asking a question. Glad we can be of any help.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Thank you. That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. I have seen the Indian point of view and so I want to learn the other viewpoint as well so I'm not only exposed to the thinking of one side.

The absolute narrow mindedness of Hindus and Hindu leadership they started showing their real faces and colours when they smelled the odour of power they could not mask their historical anger and hatred for Muslim even for a few years the cast system that they believe in did not let them drink water from the same container what to say of same utensils Jinnah finally realized that Muslims will be relegated to scheduled castes and untouchables or worse you can see what's happening to Muslims and their properties in India Iqbal and Jinnah were right everyone knows that now you don't even need audi alteram partem anyone can see it with their own eyes
If they have a pair.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.

Narendra Modi is India's Hindu Jinnah, following two-nation theory: Former Assam CM Tarun Gogoi

GUWAHATI: Calling Prime Minister Narendra Modi India's "Hindu Jinnah", former Assam chief minister Tarun Gogoi on Monday accused him of following the

www.newindianexpress.com

Shashi Tharoor kicks up row with 'Hindu Pakistan' jibe

Congress, however, disapproves of his comment; BJP calls it “extraordinary” as “it is an attack on the Indian democracy and Hindus.”

www.thehindu.com

I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.

There is more chance of Pakistan joing Brazil, Germany and Italy all in one go to become one nation than us EVER being part of india........

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Jinnah wanted a United india but with Muslims given representation according to percentage of their Population which was around 30%, in Parliament of India when it got freedom from Britishers, but Nehru declined thats what made him change his mind

For me, it is very awkward. I respect Pakistan and I respect India. Pakistan is the second most populous Muslim country on earth and I genuinely love Pakistani people. In my experience, Pakistani people are wonderful, kind, pious, people. I don't want to say anything against Pakistan or anything against Nehru. I hope that God blesses Pakistani people. I am full of admiration for the people's piety and deep love of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Also if you watch the video series on ISPR that I posted, you'll see reference to a rise on Hinduvta violence against Muslims, imposition of Hindu culture and religious practices on Muslims in regions where they were not the majority. These reports were a sign of what was to come - so it pushed the need for an independent Muslim state.

Insha'Allah I will watch it and post a reaponse. I appreciate you very much for pointing me to informative material on the subject matter.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Jinnah was a liberal man. He respected other person religion. He fought for Pakistan but when Pakistan was created he told all people in that area that you are now cease to be Hindu Muslim etc.

But yes Modi is making India Pakistan of 1977 to 1988. Modi is India's Ziaul Haq, the bigot general who used religion for his rule. Made Pakistan intolerate. We remained in that pit for quite some time but we are now gradually getting out of that pit. While India with its Modiul Haq is getting into that pit of intolerance.


Read this book about Jinnah its a good book.

Amazon.com

No offence taken, you are just asking a question. Glad we can be of any help.

I appreciate your response but your take on General Zia is honestly kind of hurtful to me. I admire Zia very much.

I know that Zia wasn't perfect but I don't believe that Zia was a bigot. I think Zia was a pious Muslim who loved Islam and was trying to serve Islam.

Minorities have to be protected and I don't believe there is any contradiction between Islamization and protecting the rights of religious minorities. In my view, true Islam and protecting the rights of religious minorities go hand in hand.

I hope that we never forget the tragedy that happened to the Muslims in Spain and that we always remember how Muslim rule in Spain upheld the rights of the non-Muslims.

When you compare the rights of non-Muslims in Spain under Muslim rule and the atrocities inflicted on innocent Muslims in Spain after the fall of the Emirate of Granada- there is no comparison.

I know that General Zia wasn't perfect but I admire him very much and I believe that his heart was in the right place and I hope that Allah grants him a high place in Jannah.

As far as human rights are concerned, Islam is at the very forefront in the defense of human rights. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) defended human beings regardless of race over 1,400 years ago while the West has yet to catch up in this regard.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

The absolute narrow mindedness of Hindus and Hindu leadership they started showing their real faces and colours when they smelled the odour of power they could not mask their historical anger and hatred for Muslim even for a few years the cast system that they believe in did not let them drink water from the same container what to say of same utensils Jinnah finally realized that Muslims will be relegated to scheduled castes and untouchables or worse you can see what's happening to Muslims and their properties in India Iqbal and Jinnah were right everyone knows that now you don't even need audi alteram partem anyone can see it with their own eyes
If they have a pair.

I am full of sadness at what is happening to the Muslims in India. I can understand the Pakistani take on Jinnah and I can understand how Partition could be hurtful to the hearts of Indians.

However, I am reminded again of the Emirate of Granada. When Muslims in Spain were being persecuted, the Emirate of Granada was the last place where Muslims could practice their faith without fear of persecution.