Qatar planning 'Wall Street-like' business hub

[HannibalBarca]

Well Can't speak about pakistan, but for tunisia, since years and years back even before Bourguiba in the 50' Tunisia got a free and obligatory education, a semi free healthcare, and social aid, a working force and nearly democratic gov even before any countries in gulf. Even "outsiders without tunisian nationality has those rights, meanwhile in gulf state in the 50-60s till this day it's not the same for everyone . We have infrastructure for dozens of years that even Dubai just aquired few years back... I can go on and on.
But our country was stopped in their tracks by let's see " by ppl that if i saw them, i will no think twice bf making a mistake..."
As for the future of gulf states, well they are building infrastructure for now, but as any nation around the world, if you don't have a work force in any lvl done by YOUR own ppl, then your future is not sure.... And I don't see an Emirati doing the job of a garbage worker or else... with a salary of 2-3k/month....
In conclusion no national worforce no sustainable power. Even Yemen has better chance to be a superpower than any gulf state if things didn't work bad for them through out history...

Do you have sources for that as I find that interesting.

I will have to repeat myself as we disagree. You cannot compare small GCC states (population wise), with countries that were former colonies for decades if not 1-2 centuries (influencing the models of those countries heavily) and much more populous countries.

UAE in the 1950's basically had a local population of what, 100.000 at most. Mostly concentrated in coastal cities and villages and with a few roaming semi-nomads in the interior (deserts and mountains).

KSA is a different story on all fronts as well as when it comes to local workforce an sustainable power. You can see that already and will see that even more. KSA, if no wars or conflicts occurs, will be one of the success stories of the region. I have no doubt about this. Saudi Arabian women alone (some of the most highly educated in the Muslim and developing world, resilient, passionate and wanting to prove themselves more than anywhere else) will ensure that.

BTW, this is Dubai in the 1950's:

First Tunsia was never a colony... but a protectorate, ALgeria and others in the area was.
As for Dubai I knwo what it was and not only him Qatar and those little land around KSA. But even if you are a little population doesn't mean you do not have to work every type of jobs. Tunisia was nearly 3.5Mil so a little more than today Qatar, still they worked in every lvl. What i wanted to say is if you do not make your ppl work in every lvl, your country will not sustain himself, adn never will be. those GCC states will have no future "alone" only if they get in sort of "union with each others or One eats the others....

as for infrastructure, even KSA got his "new" metro, as it's one of the most basic infrastructure, that's an exemple of priority in those state, work wasn't the priority... but mostly living "thanks" to smthing

 

[Saif al-Arab]

First Tunsia was never a colony... but a protectorate, ALgeria and others in the area was.
As for Dubai I knwo what it was and not only him Qatar and those little land around KSA. But even if you are a little population doesn't mean you do not have to work every type of jobs. Tunisia was nearly 3.5Mil so a little more than today Qatar, still they worked in every lvl. What i wanted to say is if you do not meke your ppl work in every lvl, your country will not sustain himself, adn never will be. those GCC states will have no future "alone" only if they get in sort of "union with each others or One eats the others....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_conquest_of_Tunisia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_protectorate_of_Tunisia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French-era_Tunisia

Protectorate or colony. We are talking about semantics here. Fact of the matter is that the French influenced Tunisia a lot. There is a reason why French is now the third language (sometimes second even) of locals be they Arabs or Berbers.

The Brits in the GCC states, expect for KSA which was never a Western colony, were mostly worried about trade routes, trade and little more. The legacy of French systems (education, health care, military, etc.) was far greater in for instance Tunisia than British influence in UAE.

In fact to remain in the region, neighboring Libya, was neglected similarly and we saw/have seen the results of that. Another country with a very small population back then and even to this very day. Another oil/gas/mineral rich country. With autocratic rulers/dictators. Compare Libya with UAE and the smaller GCC states. Who did better you think? Does not take a genius to figure out who.

Pre-oil and gas, people in the GCC worked in all sectors because they had to like any other. When oil and gas was discovered people discovered that much of the work that they did not want to do (manual) could be outsourced to people who wanted to do those kind of jobs. When you have money, you often become lazy because you have everything. This is not strange. However that mentality won't last forever so people will adopt once again. Human nature is that way.

Why do you think that Western Europeans imported/welcomed Turkish workers among others for manual work? Mostly people from poor Anatolian villages looking for a better life. Before that you ha Maghrebis going to France/Benelux for a better life. Yemenis (first Muslim community in the UK), Sudanese and Egyptians in the UK, Palestinian war refugees from Lebanon and Jordan to Scandinavia and Germany, Iraqis after 1991 to Benelux, Scandinavia and England, now Syrians and who knows who else in the future.

Let alone Sub-Saharan Africans and everyone in between. Pakistanis, Afghans etc. List is endless.

 

[HannibalBarca]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_conquest_of_Tunisia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_protectorate_of_Tunisia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French-era_Tunisia

Protectorate or colony. We are talking about semantics here. Fact of the matter is that the French influenced Tunisia a lot. There is a reason why French is now the third language (sometimes second even) of locals be they Arabs or Berbers.

The Brits in the GCC states, expect for KSA which was never a Western colony, were mostly worried about trade routes, trade and little more. The legacy of French systems (education, health care, military, etc.) was far greater in for instance Tunisia than British influence in UAE.

In fact to remain in the region, neighboring Libya, was neglected similarly and we saw/have seen the results of that. Another country with a very small population back then and even to this very day. Another oil/gas/mineral rich country. With autocratic rulers/dictators. Compare Libya with UAE and the smaller GCC states. Who did better you think? Does not take a genius to figure out who.

Pre-oil and gas, people in the GCC worked in all sectors because they had to like any other. When oil and gas was discovered people discovered that much of the work that they did not want to do (manual) could be outsourced to people who wanted to do those kind of jobs. When you have money, you often become lazy because you have everything. This is not strange. However that mentality won't last forever so people will adopt once again. Human nature is that way.

Why do you think that Western Europeans imported/welcomed Turkish workers among others for manual work? Mostly people from poor Anatolian villages looking for a better life.

You right,
As for libya the leadership is different than Gulf states, in GCC they" own" the country, but not libya, gaddafi was on power bc he pleased every tribe to let him rule. So when you're "owning" smthing ofc you will work harder on it to make it greater and better.
As for the labour in GCC, the switch will not be possbile in a blink of an eye, you will need a lot of time, at least a generation ( if no war pass by those lands ofc). But in our time, a generation it's a lot to switch, others will catch up and even take power upon them.
As for outside workers in Europe, it's different, in Ue it's not like they didn't want to work those jobs, but it was cheaper to get them done by foreigners. In GCC it's bc those nationals " DO not WANT " to do those jobs, not the way around. and that's the main problem for a sustainable country

 

[Saif al-Arab]

You right,
As for libya the leadership is different than Gulf states, in GCC they" own" the country, but not libya, gaddafi was on power bc he pleased every tribe to let him rule. So when you're "owning" smthing ofc you will work harder on it to make it greater and better.
As for the labour in GCC, the switch will not be possbile in a blink of an eye, you will need a lot of time, at least a generation ( if no war pass by those lands ofc). But in our time, a generation it's a lot to switch, others will catch up and even take power upon them.
As for outside workers in Europe, it's different, in Ue it's not like they didn't want to work those jobs, but it was cheaper to get them. In GCC it's bc those nationals " DO not WANT " to do those jobs, not the way around. and that's the main problem for a sustainable country

You are wrong in this regard. GCC monarchies are traditional Arab monarchies and when you operate such system you cannot rule with any legitimacy without 1) not disregarding Islam, 2) not forming key alliances with influential families, clans and tribes. There is a symbiosis. Without either of those 2 the system cannot function.

In the case of KSA (special case) you also have an influential clergy to look after and who have a big sway.

The GCC regimes have to please the people (one of the most pampered in the world) to remain in power.

Gaddafi was a simple warlord that ruled a divided country. He used similar tactics but much less effectively and neglected the people and country even more. Not to say that the man was a fool and delusional (King of all Arabs, King of Africa and what other nonsense he had). He started well but as with any ruler and dynasty in recent eras in our region, it became worse and worse the more power he got.

Of course not. It will be a gradual process that has already begun. The new generation (my generation) is totally different from the generation that only knew pampering. The world has become much more interconnected, globalized and challenging as well. If you do not assimilate to that you simply perish in the jungle.

Partially true. However you should look at this, as always, from the perspective of rulers and private businessmen and people in power. Do you rather want to employ a demanding local that you have to pay more or some Sri Lankan that you can pay less and who is willing to work harder as he has nothing and is desperate to feed his family back home?

Why do you think that the youth unemployment in KSA for instance, despite mostly having a highly educated population (university degrees), is so high?

Which is why I said that the system is at fault. Because the system created the faults and fostered them in the first place.

Had the regimes limited themselves to welcoming highly educated people and aggressively pursued development from the first day while focusing on a manufacturing base from within, a lot of work would have been done already. Instead the easier route was chosen. I believe deliberately at the rulers back then had no interests in their subjects becoming too globalized in fear of their legitimacy weakening.

King Abdulaziz famously said that the success to stability was to remain closed. So status quo could not be challenged.

 

[HannibalBarca]

You are wrong in this regard. GCC monarchies are traditional Arab monarchies and when you operate such system you cannot rule with any legitimacy without 1) not disregarding Islam, 2) not forming key alliances with influential families, clans and tribes. There is a symbiosis. Without either of those 2 the system cannot function.

The GCC regimes have to please the people (one of the most pampered in the world) to remain in power.

Gaddafi was a simple warlord that ruled a divided country. He used similar tactics but much less effectively and neglected the people and country even more. Not to say that the man was a fool and delusional (King of all Arabs, King of Africa and what other nonsense he had). He started well but as with any ruler and dynasty in recent eras in our region, it became worse and worse the more power he got.

Of course not. It will be a gradual process that has already begun. The new generation (my generation) is totally different from the generation that only knew pampering. The world has become much more interconnected, globalized and challenging as well. If you do not assimilate to that you simply perish in the jungle.

Partially true. However you should look at this, as always, from the perspective of rulers and private businessmen and people in power. Do you rather want to employ a demanding local that you have to pay more or some Sri Lankan that you can pay less and who is willing to work harder as he has nothing and is desperate to feed his family back home?

Why do you think that the youth unemployment in KSA for instance, despite mostly having a highly educated population (university degrees), is so high?

So let's say I ask a KSA/Qatari/UAE boy/gril to work in factory for the same price as his other colleague. Will he/she accept even though she does not have a job? I think it will be a no, even though they are unumployed.

Meanwhile in other Arab or Muslim or whatever country in the world, even if you have a degree , when you have to work to sustain yourlself, the majority of cases , they accept. that's the difference with Gulf state.

And getting ppl for cheap price is not against the rule everyone is doing it, but with a certain degree, UAE 80+% are foreigners... , when i spoke about "working force" it wasn't only as an economical point of view, but i was talking about the sustainability and future of the country in consideration, as "where are they heading to".

Ofc KSA or others around her is changing, but not fast enough, and not being fast is the main problem in today society. It's like those Vision 2030 or any other programs , the majority of investment will be centered on "more autonomy" and "investment outside and inside" than significant working force growth.

And a youth with a degree is not only what a country need... you need guys in factory, construction.... even cooking , doctors , nurses....

 

[Saif al-Arab]

So let's say I ask a KSA/Qatari/UAE boy/gril to work in factory for the same price as his other colleague. Will he/she accept even though she does not have a job? I think it will be a no, even though they are unumployed.

Meanwhile in other Arab or Muslim or whatever country in the world, even if you have a degree , when you have to work to sustain yourlself, the majority of cases , they accept. that's the difference with Gulf state.

And getting ppl for cheap price is not against the rule everyone is doing it, but with a certain degree, UAE 80+% are foreigners... , when i spoke about "working force" it wasn't only as an economical point of view, but i was talking about the sustainability and future of the country in consideration, as "where are they heading to".

Ofc KSA or others around her is changing, but not fast enough, and not being fast is the main problem in today society. It's like those Vision 2030 or any other programs , the majority of investment will be centered on "more autonomy" and "investment outside and inside" than significant working force growth.

You see that kind of thinking is due to misconceptions and prejudice that have been parroted by mostly Western media. A loud minority has become the majority. I have several friends in KSA who have university degrees (local as well as foreign degrees) and who don't have to work as their families are quite wealthy and well to do but who have been unemployed at times and they have taken whatever jobs which were available rather than getting benefits from the state. You have 1000's of such examples. Which is why I say don't compare the current generation (vast majority of the population - people 25 years and under) with the ruling ones and those just below the rulers. A different world. However in smaller GCC states there is more elitism for obvious reasons as there are much fewer people so wealth does not need to be distributed over a large number of people.

UAE is a special case in this regard and it has positives and negatives. I am not from the UAE but I know that UAE would not have achieved what it did (a larger population than 1 million would require that) without welcoming foreigners. No country would of that size (population wise). And UAE has done well actually. On many fronts better than any other GCC and Muslim country.

I repeat without opening up for foreigners and without allowing them to live and work in the UAE, the UAE would be another Bahrain. Why? Due to their small population. If they had 50 million people they would not need such policies.

Without making any direct comparisons, but take a look at Monaco. What would that be if not for foreigners settling and investing? A small fishing village. Monaco is a tiny miniature of some of the smaller GCC states. You get the point. Some 100 years ago one of the rulers of Monaco decided to built a casino. Rest is history. Been there, seen it all myself.

Actually you are wrong about your last statement. Changes in the past few years have been concrete and "real". It's not just been talk like many times in the past. Of course we don't have a full picture and we will see by 2030, how the situation will be, but KSA is definitely moving in the right direction. Ask most locals and expats alike and they will tell you.

 

[HannibalBarca]

You see that kind of thinking is due to misconceptions and prejudice that have been parroted by mostly Western media. A loud minority has become the majority. I have several friends in KSA who have university degrees (local as well as foreign degrees) and who don't have to work as their families are quite wealthy and well to do but who have been unemployed at times and they have taken whatever jobs which were available rather than getting benefits from the state. You have 1000's of such examples. Which is why I say don't compare the current generation (vast majority of the population - people 25 years and under) with the ruling ones and those just below the rulers. A different world. However in smaller GCC states there is more elitism for obvious reasons as there are much fewer people so wealth does not need to be distributed over a large number of people.

UAE is a special case in this regard and it has positives and negatives. I am not from the UAE but I know that UAE would not have achieved what it did (a larger population than 1 million would require that) without welcoming foreigners. No country would of that size (population wise). And UAE has done well actually. On many fronts better than any other GCC and Muslim country.

Actually you are wrong about your last statement. Changes in the past few years have been concrete and "real". It's not just been talk like many times in the past. Of course we don't have a full picture and we will see by 2030, how the situation will be, but KSA is definitely moving in the right direction. Ask most locals and expats alike and they will tell you.

Well, I'm in no place to say if it will work or not, since I had to wait before judging.
Will see, even if i believe, ( self thinking) it will not be pretty as the gov want to show it.
To much power around there, fighting for smthing, at one time it will blow up

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Well, I'm in no place to say if it will work or not, since I had to wait before judging.
Will see, even if i believe, ( self thinking) it will not be pretty as the gov want to show it.
To much power around there, fighting for smthing, at one time it will blow up

Time will tell but I can tell you that there are many more reasons to be positive than negative. You would have to know KSA to say that. I am not saying that because I have any deep love for the House of Saud but due to the reasons that I have mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.