Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

[FuturePAF]

You can not use your missiles on a leased Sub, it is strictly for training, So Pakistan needs its own N submarine.

when you lease a sub, it depends on the terms of the lease
Did the Russians put any restriction on the Indians when these leased a SSN, and even if they did, but allowed the operation of Russian made Klub cruise missiles (nominally with 300 km range), couldn't the Indians put something else in

unless the babur missiles are publicly tested or disclosed, there presence on a Type 093 SSN will be a "we can't not confirm nor deny" situation

Pakistan has a ambiguity policy regarding it strategic assets
worst case; Pakistan could say conventionally armed C-802 or similar missiles are on board, and swap conventional warhead for strategic ones (with only a few on board and a few on shore in the know)

 

[The SC]

I dont see Pakistan getting a nuclear sub, too expensive.

Pakistan can, but it must have outweighed the advantages and disadvantages, and had chosen to add 2 more advanced SSKs for the price of an SSN. I think it is wise, because Pakistan has only its shores to defend, and advanced AIP submarines can also be efficient for attack, if need be.

when you lease a sub, it depends on the terms of the lease
Did the Russians put any restriction on the Indians when these leased a SSN, and even if they did, but allowed the operation of Russian made Klub cruise missiles (nominally with 300 km range), couldn't the Indians put something else in

unless the babur missiles are publicly tested or disclosed, there presence on a Type 093 SSN will be a "we can't not confirm nor deny" situation

Pakistan has a ambiguity policy regarding it strategic assets
worst case; Pakistan could say conventionally armed C-802 or similar missiles are on board, and swap conventional warhead for strategic ones (with only a few on board and a few on shore in the know)

From the most credible articles on the lease, not even the club S missiles are allowed. This is not a car one leases with all options, this is a NUCLEAR propulsed submarine...

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan can, but it must have outweighed the advantages and disadvantages, and had chosen to add 2 more advanced SSKs for the price of an SSN. I think it is wise, because Pakistan has only its shores to defend, and advanced AIP submarines can also be efficient for attack, if need be.


From the most credible articles on the lease, not even the club S missiles are allowed. This is not a car one leases with all options, this is a NUCLEAR propulsed submarine...

Propulsion is only Propulsion (the russians didn't give the indians nuclear weapons, but india did acquire cruise missiles to be fired from its akula boat) the Brazilians are looking to get SSNs, but not nuclear weapons

Russia may lease nuclear submarine to India - The Hindu
"Nerpa is the Project 971 third-generation submarine (NATO code name Akula-II), the most advanced Russian nuclear attack submarine. The Russian Navy's Akula-II submarines are equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a striking range of 3,000 km. The Indian version is expected to be armed with the 300-km Club nuclear-capable missiles."

The Chinese might put a similar restriction on Pakistan, or look the other way as german is doing with the israeli Popeye Turbo (1500km) cruise missile on its dolphin and dolphin II subs (true the israelis bought those boats)

if the current type 93 can fire the chinese DH-10 cruise missile, whose to say pakistan cant load 4-6 babur cruise missiles on a leased type 93, keep then under lock and key in the hands of the captain and his deputy, and stay quiet about it (while hinting at the special cargo to the indians)

its a matter of minimum credible deterence (if the chinese agree and pakistan see this as nessecary, this would be a measure to maintain deterence)

 

[The SC]

Propulsion is only Propulsion (the russians didn't give the indians nuclear weapons, but india did acquire cruise missiles to be fired from its akula boat) the Brazilians are looking to get SSNs, but not nuclear weapons

Russia may lease nuclear submarine to India - The Hindu
"Nerpa is the Project 971 third-generation submarine (NATO code name Akula-II), the most advanced Russian nuclear attack submarine. The Russian Navy's Akula-II submarines are equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a striking range of 3,000 km. The Indian version is expected to be armed with the 300-km Club nuclear-capable missiles."

The Chinese might put a similar restriction on Pakistan, or look the other way as german is doing with the israeli Popeye Turbo (1500km) cruise missile on its dolphin and dolphin II subs (true the israelis bought those boats)

if the current type 93 can fire the chinese DH-10 cruise missile, whose to say pakistan cant load 4-6 babur cruise missiles on a leased type 93, keep then under lock and key in the hands of the captain and his deputy, and stay quiet about it (while hinting at the special cargo to the indians)

its a matter of minimum credible deterence (if the chinese agree and pakistan see this as nessecary, this would be a measure to maintain deterence)

You can not have a temporary minimum or maximum deterrent, and that is what a lease is; temporary...

 

[FuturePAF]

You can not have a temporary minimum or maximum deterrent, and that is what a lease is; temporary...

India Leased an SSN and then found the need to build its own
Pakistan could try the same approach, or if in a decade's time AIP ssk design has advanced to the point where an SSN is no longer needed to fulfill the PNs mission, it could dump building SSNs

a lease would be a stop-gap measure

 

[The SC]

India Leased an SSN and then found the need to build its own
Pakistan could try the same approach, or if in a decade's time AIP ssk design has advanced to the point where an SSN is no longer needed to fulfill the PNs mission, it could dump building SSNs

a lease would be a stop-gap measure

I think India has leased the Akula class SSBN/SSN, because it had already decided on making its own. The Russians assisted in the nuclear reactor design according to many sources.
The SSKs that Pakistan is procuring are very advanced according to 2011 articles about the deal for 6 AIP all electric propulsion Qing class 041Submarines with 4000 tons surfaced displacement and up to 6000 tons submerged... at these tonnages they are the biggest and heaviest SSKs in the world today...and advanced to a point that no one knows about. Just totally modern and silent submarines to sum it up.

 

[FuturePAF]

I think India has leased the Akula class SSBN/SSN, because it had already decided on making its own. The Russians assisted in the nuclear reactor design according to many sources.
The SSKs that Pakistan is procuring are very advanced according to 2011 articles about the deal for 6 AIP all electric propulsion Qing class 041Submarines with 4000 tons surfaced displacement and up to 6000 tons submerged... at these tonnages they are the biggest and heaviest SSKs in the world today...and advanced to a point that no one knows about. Just totally modern and silent submarines to sum it up.

each nation has its own reasons for leasing military equipment (the czech air force leased gripen for 10 years and just renewed the lease for another 12 because that's what fit there needs) the PN doesn't need to necessarily build, but if it wanted to, that can be considered down the line.

actually Chinese submarine tech according to recent open source us office of naval intelligence is still years behind russian designs; of whom the indians are all to familiar with (russian designers partially help advance chinese submarine designs). large might mean more space for aip equipment, but the sub might be noise and become a sitting duck to indian p-8a asw aircraft. the number one priority is reducing noise levels, then having the best sensors on board, then mobility (endurance and range), and finally weapons.

the subs might be good, but will still take time to catch up, if china builds batches of subs going forward of 3 subs for its navy, pakistan should make a deal so it get a sub from each batch design, this way Pakistan gets the latest designs (8 subs spread out over 12-15 years); in the mean time lease a 093 for 10-15 years and learn from SSN operations, what a SSK will need to be able to do in real world scenarios

 

[FuturePAF]

Further More
If the PN puts off building/acquire submarine from china for another few years (don't worry, china can crank out subs fast if the need become a top priority and the design has been finialized) and makes it a number one priority to acquire three RN Type 23 ASW Frigates and NH-90 NFH ASW Helicopters, it can test all chinese sub designs being offered and help refine a design that would be:
1. Quiet Enough
2. Capable of detecting ASW Frigates and ASW Helicopters before they can detect the submarine
3. be able to evade surface vessels and ASW aircraft after they have been detected
4. learn just what mix of range and speed endurance is needed to stay undetectable or get out of fix once detected
5. what sensors and countermeasures need to be on these subs for fulfill the previous 4 priorities and how to complete the other missions of espionage, surgical strike, special forces insertion, and strategic deterence (does the PN need a variant with VLS tubes dedicated to launching missiles like the amur 950 ssk, or are a few missiles on each submarine launched out of the torpedo tubes like the israeli dolphin subs adequate)

SSN or SSK; it comes down to fulfill the mission
if the PN bought the type 23 frigates (with associated asw equipement) the PN could be the R&D center for ssk development...and the PN already has a ex-usn perry class frigate with ASW capabilities (different capabilities then the chinese have, possibly more advanced after a turkish modernization)

 

[The SC]

each nation has its own reasons for leasing military equipment (the czech air force leased gripen for 10 years and just renewed the lease for another 12 because that's what fit there needs) the PN doesn't need to necessarily build, but if it wanted to, that can be considered down the line.

actually Chinese submarine tech according to recent open source us office of naval intelligence is still years behind russian designs; of whom the indians are all to familiar with (russian designers partially help advance chinese submarine designs). large might mean more space for aip equipment, but the sub might be noise and become a sitting duck to indian p-8a asw aircraft. the number one priority is reducing noise levels, then having the best sensors on board, then mobility (endurance and range), and finally weapons.

the subs might be good, but will still take time to catch up, if china builds batches of subs going forward of 3 subs for its navy, pakistan should make a deal so it get a sub from each batch design, this way Pakistan gets the latest designs (8 subs spread out over 12-15 years); in the mean time lease a 093 for 10-15 years and learn from SSN operations, what a SSK will need to be able to do in real world scenarios

You are right, The only thing that you have missed on is that the new Chinese SSKs are very advanced and are at the edge of submarine technologies.
Instead of leasing an N Sub, Pakistan can build its own, it has the know how, but it is a question of time, choices and strategic political reasons. I do not know much about the Chinese N subs, since I do not know if they can match the Akula class who is known to be very stealthy. See the incident near the US cost, where two Akula class gave very big headache to the Mighty US defenses. Pakistan is better to go for long range hunter-killer Nsub if it wants to counter the Akula-like Indian N subs. for at least giving them some shivers knowing it is around.

 

[FuturePAF]

You are right, The only thing that you have missed on is that the new Chinese SSKs are very advanced and are at the edge of submarine technologies.
Instead of leasing an N Sub, Pakistan can build its own, it has the know how, but it is a question of time, choices and strategic political reasons. I do not know much about the Chinese N subs, since I do not know if they can match the Akula class who is known to be very stealthy. See the incident near the US cost, where two Akula class gave very big headache to the Mighty US defenses. Pakistan is better to go for long range hunter-killer Nsub if it wants to counter the Akula-like Indian N subs. for at least giving them some shivers knowing it is around.

One Leased SSN for 10-15 Years as a learning platform and Deterent Stop-Gap Would be most prudent option for the PN
in a few years china will move on to the Type 095 SSN, and leasing a late model Type 093 would be benefical for pakistan and for china

but Chinese Sub Noise levels are actually decades behind, even though they are catching up, the gap is still there (this chart is probably from the ONI; US office of naval intelligence, and referencing early type 093 models)
Indian Akula II attack submarine, page 4

Google Image Result for http://i37.tinypic.com/15g5clv.jpg

this is why the PN need type 23 frigates to help refine the design of a SSK for Pakistan
this takes time and hopefully a decade from now, pakistan could have a fleet of 8 world class ssk, quiet and maintaining minimum credible deterent at minimal operational cost to pakistan

 

[The SC]

One Leased SSN for 10-15 Years as a learning platform and Deterent Stop-Gap Would be most prudent option for the PN
in a few years china will move on to the Type 095 SSN, and leasing a late model Type 093 would be benefical for pakistan and for china

but Chinese Sub Noise levels are actually decades behind, even though they are catching up, the gap is still there (this chart is probably from the ONI; US office of naval intelligence, and referencing early type 093 models)
Indian Akula II attack submarine, page 4

Google Image Result for http://i37.tinypic.com/15g5clv.jpg

this is why the PN need type 23 frigates to help refine the design of a SSK for Pakistan
this takes time and hopefully a decade from now, pakistan could have a fleet of 8 world class ssk, quiet and maintaining minimum credible deterent at minimal operational cost to pakistan

I do not know if you know how quiet are the Kilo class submarines, but Chinese Modern SSKs are already far more quieter and advanced in noise reduction. one can call the Qing class 041 world class SSKs without blinking on any feature. They should be inducted very soon (at least 4 of them since 6 were ordered in 2011). Pakistan will also make the S-26 and S-30 at home, that might take a decade or a bit less, and it is looking to buy used Advanced submarines from Europe...

 

[FuturePAF]

I do not know if you know how quiet are the Kilo class submarines, but Chinese Modern SSKs are already far more quieter and advanced in noise reduction. one can call the Qing class 041 world class SSKs without blinking on any feature. They should be inducted very soon (at least 4 of them since 6 were ordered in 2011). Pakistan will also make the S-26 and S-30 at home, that might take a decade or a bit less, and it is looking to buy used Advanced submarines from Europe...

noise levels of diesel-electric boats
http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/15/54/62/79/diesel10.jpg

current world class ssk are german u-212/214/dolphin, japanese soryu, french scorpene and swedish gotland class.
Sweden is planning the A26 class, germany the u-216sg/218, france with the ocean class, and japan will modernize its soryu class possibly alongside the australians for their program

these are the boats to beat, because nato nations train against these, and the information learned is applied on asw platforms like the p-8a; which is in service with the Indian navy

the chinese only recieved their first kilo on feb 27, 1995. thats barely 20 years ago
their first "modernized" design; the type 039 entered service in june 1999 and the yuan subs entered service in 2008

they are advancing quickly, with help from russian submarine design bureau, but they still have at least 10-20 years before they catch up

if the pn gets the type 23 and does the r&d with the current ssk and ssn, it will push china to advance their material science departments, electronics departments, and all of other fields to put together a world class ssn, and the technology from that then is applied to ssk, this could be done in possibly 5 years of intense r&d (r&d on top of all their other sources of technology procurement)

dont believe the hype, china is advancing, but its still at least a decade behind
the subs pakistan gets will be the best the navy wiill have for decades to come

the PN needs to be wise with its procurements and go for quality, not quantity just because india is building so many in numbers

 

[kaykay]

Yet, they are still building more SSNs!?


Only for training, no missiles on board...

Wrong. Akulas are equipped with Klub anti-ship cruise missiles.

 

[niaz]

Yet, they are still building more SSNs!?


Only for training, no missiles on board...

You are quoting my post out of context Sir. Yes they are building new SSNs but who is doing it and for what political objective?

First & foremost is the cost of building/acquiring a nuclear submarine. Second being what are going to do with it?

Answer to the first is simple, Pakistan Navy in particular is cash starved and Pakistan can easily buy up to 3 or even more conventional subs at the cost of one nuclear submarine. Hence it does not make economic sense.

Second is the utilization of such an expensive asset. Global powers such as US, Russia & China need to exert power far beyond their shores. Submarine is a stealth weapon and its mission success demands that it remains undetected.
Chinese or Russian subs need to lurk near US shores to be effective, thus need to traverse very long distances without being detected and quickly.

Main shortcoming of an SSK compared to SSN is the size which in turns limits its weapon load and stores carrying capacity; thus shorter endurance. SSN can maintain higher speeds longer, quickly reaching the target and also get away from danger.

Longer endurance also requires more staff. Even a small SSK such as Augusta 90B with a complement of about 40 would require a lot of food if it were to remain at sea for a couple of months without resupply.

In Indian/ Pakistan scenario, distances are not that much. Hence in our case as long the submarine is very quiet and can remain under the surface for a couple of weeks or more, it would be sufficient to meet theatre requirements. For example at 10 knots submerged, an SSK based at Karachi can reach Visakhaptnam, HQ Eastern Command of IN, in about 10 -11 days. This means about 3 weeks under water endurance is enough. Thus a German 214 with max speed of 20 knots submerged; if modified to fire cruise missile would fulfill all of Pakistan Navy needs.

I have to admit that I have been reading about SSN versus modern SSK’s for quite a few years. Each arguably has advantages over the other depending upon the naval objectives. This discussion here is in the context of need for Pakistan for an SSN. I stand by my contention that there is none.

 

[zindapak]

Pakistan developing armed forces, every sovereign country has the right to do so, but I don't think Pakistan has expertise to make nuclear sub indigeneously for another decade.