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Pakistan’s hybrid regime buying time before its downfall

such a pathetic and selfish piece, based on mere assumptions and harsh criticism. not even a single proof or document or reference was given to make the argument strong enough to make me read more then 2 paragraphs. let the fools speak and we must fight this propaganda back
 
I have been crying and requesting establishment please please grow up with brain , don't take the burden of this brainless arrogant dubious persons sins on your shoulders, let him have what he deserves establishment should sit miles away from where even Ik passes , let him burry under the burden of his own lies it will be least compensation of the sin which this establishment unintentionally committed by bringing up him in power, let's seek Allahs forgiveness and don't repeat mistakes again,

Please stop your worthless mewing

Do you want worthless Bhutto's and sharifs to rule you like a king

What kind of stupidity is this?
 
I believe elections were rigged in Karachi

Analyse the data of 2013 and 2018 and see what sense you can make of the stats. But in summary, the voter turnout in Karachi was low: from 55% in 2013 to 40% in 2018. One theory has been that the big chunk of MQM loyalists decided to sit it out, for reasons both known and speculated. There were also reports of MQM, PPP, and PML-N votes being thrown out of the ballots. The following link should put things in perspective: https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/348500-karachi-witnesses-lowest-turnout-in-recent-history
 
Still don't understand the issue with 18th amendment. India gives probably more power to states than Pakistan and even have regional parties having fiefdoms. Result is some provinces are more developed than others.

What happens if the 18th amendment is not in fore and you have a corrupt central govt and honest state govt? The state's will lose revenue and will be unable to do anything. Same as having 18th amendment. I guess it's just political inability to get things done is blamed on this law.
I don't have an issue with the 18th amendment in principle. For an ethnically diverse country with provinces largely defined on ethnic lines, devolution makes sense. I do think that it should have also been used as an opportunity to mandate further devolution of powers within a pre-defined framework/guidelines.

In general, there are various teething and structural problems with devolution of powers and the allocation of revenues from the Federal Government to the provinces (Federal revenues are split between the provinces and Center, with the provinces getting 58% of total revenues). The revenue allocation especially has contributed to a lot of issues for the Federal government (the provinces were supposed to reform and broaden provincial revenue generation mechanisms so as to reduce their dependence upon the Center, which has not happened after 9 years).

Here is an article that covers some of the broader issues since the passage of the 18th amendment.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/569771-pakistans-fiscal-dilemma
 
I don't have an issue with the 18th amendment in principle. For an ethnically diverse country with provinces largely defined on ethnic lines, devolution makes sense. I do think that it should have also been used as an opportunity to mandate further devolution of powers within a pre-defined framework/guidelines.

In general, there are various teething and structural problems with devolution of powers and the allocation of revenues from the Federal Government to the provinces (Federal revenues are split between the provinces and Center, with the provinces getting 58% of total revenues). The revenue allocation especially has contributed to a lot of issues for the Federal government (the provinces were supposed to reform and broaden provincial revenue generation mechanisms so as to reduce their dependence upon the Center, which has not happened after 9 years).

Here is an article that covers some of the broader issues since the passage of the 18th amendment.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/569771-pakistans-fiscal-dilemma
Powers should had been transferred to Cities like they were transferred to Provinces
 
Please stop your worthless mewing

Do you want worthless Bhutto's and sharifs to rule you like a king

What kind of stupidity is this?
I hate bhutos and hrami shariefs more than you so keep your advices with you , your this Khan was anticipated to hang these traitors but now see what he have done ? Utter duplicacy lies fake promises what else ? he is PM if he can't do anything of these looters it means he is more criminal than the actual ones, uzer e gunah bad tr azzy gunah , now you stop your mewing
 
I have

They are utterly ridiculous for a nation like Pakistan where political corruption, ineptitude, regionalism, ethnocentrism is rampant

It allows regional oligarchy, so with money in their pockets a regional party like PPP can continue with a system of control because they can and do allocate resources not as a representative of the state but as a party of Sindh it thus becomes in their interest to increase regionalism and attack and deride the centre as evil conspirators

Repeat in all other provinces

We thus as a state lose a cohesive national government to regional parties all looking to horde power in their own states and seeking to display the centre as the "other" upon whom every failure is blamed

Our people are simply to uneducated to understand and our country suffers

We need a strong central state to whom all hold allegiance not differing centers of power across the country which push back EVERY time the state tries to implement something

I completely and utterly disagree. Centralisation of power has never been a good thing for Pakistan. It was this centralised power in the 1950s and One Unit programme, as well as subsequent Ayub Khan policies that arguably led to the breakaway of East Pakistan.

Pakistan has a sham democracy, this s not a democracy but only a system where feudal lords/zamindars get into power by using their peasants and peasants choose the provincial governments, these land lords from rural areas get to rule the urban centers which has educated people and dont elect the same land lords as they get to be chosen in rural areas.

the true devolution can nt happen and has not been able to provide results since 12 years it has been implemented, 18th amendment has not been able to deliver to the people.

the provincial govt despite being given authority and powers dont reciprocate the same with the local govenrment which get appointments and their local representatives/ commissioners can be removed by the authority of the provincial CM or local bodies minister, same is the case of karach where a mayor can be removed by the provincial govt.

Musharraf system although dictatorial was probably much more democratic as it let poor people choose their representatives, or atleast at the local level and funds were distributed at the local level without provincial interference.

regards

I agree on most of your commentary except for the part about Musharraf and the centralisation of power. Saying Musharraf's era was more democratic I believe is the opposite of the truth.

Also, I think your opposition to the 18th is slightly misguided, as I've said multiple times, devolution was one part of the amendment, it has far more to do with basic democratic principles and parliamentary sovereignty.

For example, I'd ask, would you accept the 18th as it is, minus the articles about provinces and devolution?
If the answer is yes, then you probably need to re-evaluate your thinking of the 18th as whole, and consider which articles in particular you take issue with and why all these different ideas were crammed into one amendment act in the first place. If I recall correctly, first 20 or so articles stated in the amendment act don't even mention devolution/provinces etc, apart from renaming provinces. They're all about restoring democracy. If the answer is no, then I think you need a complete rereading of the 18th, and it'd be best in either case to point out which articles, and their specific substitutions and amendments you take an issue with:

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/amendments/18amendment.html

Then I can make sense of your criticism of the 18th, right now it's hard to contextualize without specifics.
yeah, lifting the limit on PM-ship is democratic. going against party line is not ok anymore, that too, is highly democratic. no check and balance by the center, no matter what the provinces do, no accountability is highly democratic.

those are issues at provincial level, which cannot be addressed because of........ you guessed it: 18th amendment.

Actually that's one part of 18th that I take issue with too. The lifting of the ban of third time PM and CM-ship, but most of it was a positive step and a lot of the rest of the 18th was entirely necessary to implement, and IMO it's necessary to defend it now too. And on provincial issues, I'm actually for more devolution, it can happen, 18th doesn't need to be a roadblock, but you need consensus first.
 
what did 18th amendment achieve, nothing but regionalism and increased ethnic confrontation, otoh musharraf did empower the local bodies which proved to be miraculous, 18th amendment should have been used to devolve local powers but the provinces kept their dictatorial control on them and kept appointing commissioners instead of giving power and funds to elected representative.

regards


Its very rare that I agree with you. People of Pakistan has a social contract with the state to allow them to secure finanical and administrative autonomy , now if someone wants to rule by viceroys then public unrest can't be stop. It's about time state let us make our own decisions, call back the viceroys and abolish divisional control of cities.
 
really how would they have handled it better ...
i think they handled really good...
yes we are slow on other things including agricultural, educational and judiciary reforms.all of which needs opposition help and senate majority..both will not happen before 2021

but to believe that miraculously we will double our exports in 5 years when we have cutthroat competition .. won't happen..definitively not when world is going into recession

I broadly agree. I was actually defending the government post-2018 election on the economy and saying the steps being taken are necessary.

The only way it could have been better is if IK (perhaps unrealistically) made it clear to his voters of what would happen in 2018 and afterwards, instead of the unfulfillable promises of unrealistic proportions about employment, building homes etc. And secondly, I believe they should have been quicker to let on to the loans and IMF programmes, they seemed to procrastinate and hesitate too much which cost us, and it's yet to be seen what they'll do next, but it seemed for a small window between the first IMF review and covid that they now hesitated too much to loosen some austerity drive measures for the sake of the economy, they had options by then and things were not as dire as before but didn't really look to be exercising those options.

But as I said, this is small scale criticism, broadly speaking we're in agreement. The economic crisis wasn't caused by PTI or IK, they can't be blamed for it.

It's a poorly written and argued opinion piece that draws on unsubstantiated claims galore.

The author starts from a baseline where his views (clearly stated in the article) are:

1. The PTI government came to power through rigged elections
2. The Army is calling the shots in terms of appointments to influential positions in the government
3. The Army is against democracy and the 18th amendment and wants to return in a military coup (nonsensical claim since a military coup would care naught for any amendment or the constitution).

Each one of the above claims (just the main ones for now) requires detailed arguments and substantiation, but instead you have hacks like Imad Zafar writing opinion pieces based on them and subsequently drawing flawed conclusions.

No wonder the state of journalism and media in Pakistan is in the absolute toilet currently.

On the subject, I believe those can still be a baseline, I see that you take issue with them. But like I said, these claims can't be substantiated for now. Establishment has rigged plenty of elections in the past, take your pick, one of the elections in the 50s, 1964, 1990 etc.

The 1990 election for example was rigged in favour of Nawaz Sharif, and in the years leading up to it, the establishment was set against Benazir, they undertook operation midnight jackal to take her government down. The army leadership behind the scenes facilitated a vote of no-confidence in BB, subsequent electoral rigging (not so much by vote rigging but the plethora of other techniques), mehrangate scandal, and funding the opposition IDA and propping a Nawaz coalition. All of these claims that for two decades were as you said "unsubstantiated" were subsequently proven, it just took some time and the political atmosphere. Similarly, I believe time will tell what happened between 2014-present and the army's role in politics. You may disagree and say that it's unsubstantiated, you don't suspect these claims to be true at all. Fine, of course it's unsubstantiated... But nowhere did the article claim, nor did I claim that these were as yet verified accounts. But that won't stop me from discussing this in the interim, without waiting for some apex court a decade or two from now proving what's being said/alluded to. We can quite freely, and I can quite happily discuss and speculate these claims until the day that it is proven.

Secondly, on appointments and calling the shots, these things happen behind the scenes. Note the latter clause of the sentence: behind the scenes. Meaning they aren't for us to know, but we can infer, if we choose to believe that the establishment has sway over the government and helped bring them in to power (as I believe, and as you clearly don't believe yet). The disagreement is fine, we are all free to believe as we wish, but if previous examples of army influence are anything to go by, the people who filled the PTI's ranks coincided with the as yet unsubstantiated allegations of establishment influence around the time of the buildup to the 2014 dharna. Again, I hear your criticism, and it's stemmed directly in the issue of unsubstantiated base line. To that end, there's really not much to elaborate on, if like you, we believe that it's probably not true or unproven, then the whole article is a piece of hogwash, to be ignored or repudiated. If you indulge the speculation as I am, then to infer what the establishment is doing is not a far stretch at all. The appointment of ex-DG ISPR to SAPM is probably one such example of a less cautious episode of establishment influencing. But fine, let's agree to disagree since you are not willing to indulge any unsubstantiated claims until they are undoubtedly substantiated, which as I said might happen who knows how many years hence.

On an aisde, I fail to see what you mean by the article being poorly written per se. It's an editorial, of course they'll editorialise, I get that some people's issues with them, but besides that I don't see poor writing anywhere. Average and middling but not poor. Pakistan's political system has historically been some form a hybrid regime or outright dictatorship, the army has been in and out and around power, for decades now. I think it's naive to assume things have changed when a good proportion of the opposition, certain people in media and others are claiming foul play.

I don't think this debate will go anywhere, at least not until those claims are verified at some later date. But almost every case of alleged army involvement in politics has proven to be true given enough time has passed. History has proved journalists like this to be true in the past when it comes to the establishment in Pakistan. :)
 
I broadly agree. I was actually defending the government post-2018 election on the economy and saying the steps being taken are necessary.

The only way it could have been better is if IK (perhaps unrealistically) made it clear to his voters of what would happen in 2018 and afterwards, instead of the unfulfillable promises of unrealistic proportions about employment, building homes etc. And secondly, I believe they should have been quicker to let on to the loans and IMF programmes, they seemed to procrastinate and hesitate too much which cost us, and it's yet to be seen what they'll do next, but it seemed for a small window between the first IMF review and covid that they now hesitated too much to loosen some austerity drive measures for the sake of the economy, they had options by then and things were not as dire as before but didn't really look to be exercising those options.

But as I said, this is small scale criticism, broadly speaking we're in agreement. The economic crisis wasn't caused by PTI or IK, they can't be blamed for it.



On the subject, I believe those can still be a baseline, I see that you take issue with them. But like I said, these claims can't be substantiated for now. Establishment has rigged plenty of elections in the past, take your pick, one of the elections in the 50s, 1964, 1990 etc.

The 1990 election for example was rigged in favour of Nawaz Sharif, and in the years leading up to it, the establishment was set against Benazir, they undertook operation midnight jackal to take her government down. The army leadership behind the scenes facilitated a vote of no-confidence in BB, subsequent electoral rigging (not so much by vote rigging but the plethora of other techniques), mehrangate scandal, and funding the opposition IDA and propping a Nawaz coalition. All of these claims that for two decades were as you said "unsubstantiated" were subsequently proven, it just took some time and the political atmosphere. Similarly, I believe time will tell what happened between 2014-present and the army's role in politics. You may disagree and say that it's unsubstantiated, you don't suspect these claims to be true at all. Fine, of course it's unsubstantiated... But nowhere did the article claim, nor did I claim that these were as yet verified accounts. But that won't stop me from discussing this in the interim, without waiting for some apex court a decade or two from now proving what's being said/alluded to. We can quite freely, and I can quite happily discuss and speculate these claims until the day that it is proven.

Secondly, on appointments and calling the shots, these things happen behind the scenes. Note the latter clause of the sentence: behind the scenes. Meaning they aren't for us to know, but we can infer, if we choose to believe that the establishment has sway over the government and helped bring them in to power (as I believe, and as you clearly don't believe yet). The disagreement is fine, we are all free to believe as we wish, but if previous examples of army influence are anything to go by, the people who filled the PTI's ranks coincided with the as yet unsubstantiated allegations of establishment influence around the time of the buildup to the 2014 dharna. Again, I hear your criticism, and it's stemmed directly in the issue of unsubstantiated base line. To that end, there's really not much to elaborate on, if like you, we believe that it's probably not true or unproven, then the whole article is a piece of hogwash, to be ignored or repudiated. If you indulge the speculation as I am, then to infer what the establishment is doing is not a far stretch at all. The appointment of ex-DG ISPR to SAPM is probably one such example of a less cautious episode of establishment influencing. But fine, let's agree to disagree since you are not willing to indulge any unsubstantiated claims until they are undoubtedly substantiated, which as I said might happen who knows how many years hence.

On an aisde, I fail to see what you mean by the article being poorly written per se. It's an editorial, of course they'll editorialise, I get that some people's issues with them, but besides that I don't see poor writing anywhere. Average and middling but not poor. Pakistan's political system has historically been some form a hybrid regime or outright dictatorship, the army has been in and out and around power, for decades now. I think it's naive to assume things have changed when a good proportion of the opposition, certain people in media and others are claiming foul play.

I don't think this debate will go anywhere, at least not until those claims are verified at some later date. But almost every case of alleged army involvement in politics has proven to be true given enough time has passed. History has proved journalists like this to be true in the past when it comes to the establishment in Pakistan. :)
This is the most thoughtful post that I have read on this forum for some time now, written on Pakistani affairs by a Pakistani.

I was under the observation that Pakistani people are really only pretending to be so gullible and genuinely dont believe in most of the things they write on this website. I feel that a lot of members here have themselves enrolled themselves into the so-called "5th Gen Warfare" of "strategically manipulating" facts through repeating lies and deceit until someone else starts to believe them.

After reading you, I still dont want to believe that people who disagree with the writer really disagree with the writer - because that would be a cruel joke on history.

Perhaps, you are wiser than the rest and have realized the futility of conforming to this norm.

My take as a neutral observer is that IK is a good man but he has too much on his plate. He became PM at the worst possible time in Pakistan's history and the about half the population has been spewing venom, hatred and blame on him for the mess Pakistan is in today without accounting for the contribution of his predecessors to today's problems. Secondly, he does not really have the power or influence to make a strong independent decision on anything. IK is just a good looking face for the civilian government and the establishment's puppet PM who will be replaced as soon as the winds change.

In reality, the game has been rigged and the establishment gets to use cheat codes on the basis of external security issues which are constantly projected by the establishment - which in truth do a good job in helping justify the defence spending, a good chunk of which indirectly goes into the more influential members who have their own families, children, houses, lands etc in foreign nations such as Europe, UK, etc.
 
I don't have an issue with the 18th amendment in principle. For an ethnically diverse country with provinces largely defined on ethnic lines, devolution makes sense. I do think that it should have also been used as an opportunity to mandate further devolution of powers within a pre-defined framework/guidelines.

In general, there are various teething and structural problems with devolution of powers and the allocation of revenues from the Federal Government to the provinces (Federal revenues are split between the provinces and Center, with the provinces getting 58% of total revenues). The revenue allocation especially has contributed to a lot of issues for the Federal government (the provinces were supposed to reform and broaden provincial revenue generation mechanisms so as to reduce their dependence upon the Center, which has not happened after 9 years).

Here is an article that covers some of the broader issues since the passage of the 18th amendment.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/569771-pakistans-fiscal-dilemma

Again yes and no. Just cos state govt aren't performing well today and federal is honest doesn't mean the situation won't turn around in the near future. Does it mean laws have to changes around the sensitive subject every 10 years?
The link is damning on provincial govt ability to collect taxes. But I do not know if the performance of federal govt is any better. Anyway that's for Pakistanis to sit around to figure out a way. These issues are in almost every country in different kinds. From US to India where underdeveloped states suck more money from performing states.

We don't want fiefdoms by corrupt parties

You cant change society when regional parties have a vested interest in trying to promote regionalism

Well that's the question of who is we. Sitting from my state I do not want some politicians to win certain states. But at the end of the day it's the citizens of a particular country or a state who decides which path they want to take forward.
 
This is the most thoughtful post that I have read on this forum for some time now, written on Pakistani affairs by a Pakistani.

I was under the observation that Pakistani people are really only pretending to be so gullible and genuinely dont believe in most of the things they write on this website. I feel that a lot of members here have themselves enrolled themselves into the so-called "5th Gen Warfare" of "strategically manipulating" facts through repeating lies and deceit until someone else starts to believe them.

After reading you, I still dont want to believe that people who disagree with the writer really disagree with the writer - because that would be a cruel joke on history.

Perhaps, you are wiser than the rest and have realized the futility of conforming to this norm.

My take as a neutral observer is that IK is a good man but he has too much on his plate. He became PM at the worst possible time in Pakistan's history and the about half the population has been spewing venom, hatred and blame on him for the mess Pakistan is in today without accounting for the contribution of his predecessors to today's problems. Secondly, he does not really have the power or influence to make a strong independent decision on anything. IK is just a good looking face for the civilian government and the establishment's puppet PM who will be replaced as soon as the winds change.

In reality, the game has been rigged and the establishment gets to use cheat codes on the basis of external security issues which are constantly projected by the establishment - which in truth do a good job in helping justify the defence spending, a good chunk of which indirectly goes into the more influential members who have their own families, children, houses, lands etc in foreign nations such as Europe, UK, etc.

I appreciate your comments, although I'm not that enlightened, I had my eyes closed until recently too. I would have been among those voices just a few years back, so I sympathise with ordinary people for holding the views they do. I even sympathise with those who leave understandably misguided angry responses when I make certain comments.

The establishment has built an aura around themselves and have associated their actions with the respect ordinary people have for the army, and they've successfully infused that as a part of the national culture and identity. It's why when someone alleges that generals are interfering in politics behind the scenes, as they have always wont to do, honest intentioned and well meaning Pakistanis respond defensively, and make several logical jumps, they begin suspecting the motives of the claimant and they wonder whether are foreign agents/traitors or just partisan galley slaves.

Of the latter I've been accused, little do they know, if and when IK gets thrown out of power by these forces, far from schadenfreude, I will be the first to defend him and point out that he was removed by undemocratic forces (if indeed that is how he is removed and it's not a case of support being withdrawn alone). Agree on almost everything else in your post, but on IK in particular as I discussed previously in this other thread, while I sympathise with his plight, I also think he has set himself up for some of the trouble he is facing and especially will face in the coming years.

I don't have an issue with the 18th amendment in principle. For an ethnically diverse country with provinces largely defined on ethnic lines, devolution makes sense. I do think that it should have also been used as an opportunity to mandate further devolution of powers within a pre-defined framework/guidelines.

In general, there are various teething and structural problems with devolution of powers and the allocation of revenues from the Federal Government to the provinces (Federal revenues are split between the provinces and Center, with the provinces getting 58% of total revenues). The revenue allocation especially has contributed to a lot of issues for the Federal government (the provinces were supposed to reform and broaden provincial revenue generation mechanisms so as to reduce their dependence upon the Center, which has not happened after 9 years).

Here is an article that covers some of the broader issues since the passage of the 18th amendment.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/569771-pakistans-fiscal-dilemma

Fully agree on this. But instead, I'd call for improvement and expansion as opposed to moving backwards from where we are.
 
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