Pakistan still financing JuD schools: Indian media

[Spring Onion]

The simple proof is that militants enter Kashmir from Pakistani territory crossing the Loc.

Kashmiris are entering their homeland Kashmir which is not part of India. So NO question of crossing into India.

No offence to Pakistani members but i would urge you to check the Pakistani army record in the erstwhile east pakistan.

It was EAST PAKISTAN not East India, So the cross border terrorism was started by India by sending Indian terrorist army into EAST PAKISTAN

 

[foxbat]

Nothing wrong in opposing the ban when it was imposed in a non-transparent manner by the UNSC, without a chance for the accused party to defend themselves in front of a neutral arbiter. Opposition to the ban does not equate to support for non-implementation of the requirements of the UNSC sanctions on JuD.

Also, as I have pointed out repeatedly in the past, EU nations (courts) have had similar issues with the UNSC sanctions on entities because of that lack of transparency and due process in the sanctions process, which is considered a violation of the rights of the entities sanctioned.

The UNSC resolutions on Kashmir on the other hand had the major parties, India and Pakistan, completely represented and articulating and lobbying their case, and the final resolutions were accepted by both. There is a huge difference in the process followed in issuing the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and the UNSC sanctions against the JuD and other entities.

Sir.. Any and everything can similarly be defended. Pakistan govt accepted that ban, just like then Indian govt accepted the UNSC resoltion. Europeans having objections does not automatically justify Pakistani members objections.

Just like some members take refuge in a subsequent aquittal of HS from Pakistani courts, the Indian stand can be justified by the subsequent withdrawl of India from the resolution due to Pakistnan's lack of committment in closing the negotiations around troop withdrawl. Now we can go all over the place on who was not committed and who was and will not be able to convince each other.

The crux of the matter is that either you accept these resolutions on face value or reject them as is. There are always excuses or reasons for rejecting the ones you dont like and accepting the ones you do. And thats what double standards are.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir.. Any and everything can similarly be defended. Pakistan govt accepted that ban, just like then Indian govt accepted the UNSC resoltion. Europeans having objections does not automatically justify Pakistani members objections.

Pakistan was not the subject of the ban, the JuD and its leadership was. Did the JuD and its leadership get a chance to defend themselves, did they accept the ban?

And yes, the EU stance does justify the stance by some Pakistanis against the UNSC sanctions since the basis of opposition in both situations is the same - that the UNSC sanctions process on alleged terrorist entities is not transparent and does not allow for the accused to defend themselves in front of a neutral judge or arbiter and is therefore a violation of their rights.

Just like some members take refuge in a subsequent aquittal of HS from Pakistani courts, the Indian stand can be justified by the subsequent withdrawl of India from the resolution due to Pakistnan's lack of committment in closing the negotiations around troop withdrawl. Now we can go all over the place on who was not committed and who was and will not be able to convince each other.

The crux of the matter is that either you accept these resolutions on face value or reject them as is. There are always excuses or reasons for rejecting the ones you dont like and accepting the ones you do. And thats what double standards are.

Please read my post you are responding to carefully, 'Opposition to the ban does not equate to support for non-implementation of the requirements of the UNSC sanctions on JuD.

There is opposition to the process and procedures followed by the UNSC in imposing these sanctions on entities, but at the same time Pakistan, even if it disagrees with the decision, cannot refuse to implement the sanctions (and has not refused), nor have I argued that it should refuse. But at the same time the flaws in the process of imposing sanctions needs to be pointed out.

 

[ramu]

The banning was done with a presidential order, it was never ratified by law. Moreover the courts have already found them not-guilty. The government and the courts don't see eye to eye on anything and are non-aligned.

1. Either you can say the Courts are with JuD, but then you should explain why the government is still funding them?
2. Or you can say that the government is with JuD, but then you need to explain why the courts freed them?

Or alternatively you can accept that there really was no evidence provided against them. India was an INVITED party to the court proceedings and India fell short to even produce a single article of evidence at the trial. It kept harping about the dossier, however the dossier was a file with papers, making allegations - no evidence. Indian team didn't even step into the court.

So if you had proof and you have a problem with the JuD, perhaps you should go question your government why they allowed them to walk free.

The case only reached the high courts, there's still a chance to drag the case into the Supreme court.

Same question though, will you be willing to step forward this time?

It is rare to see a government body funding a private organisation. Here the entity in question is suspect and the law about innocent until proven guilty needs a break.

I will give you a third option for why the govt and the courts are on the same page.

If anti Indian rhetoric is viewed as good for the country, every tom dick and harry in Pakistan will tow that line.

Do you really think if a terror plot was planned in Iran and executed in Israel, you can find the evidence of planning / support in Iran ? If Pakistan cannot find any evidence, why are they prosecuting a group of men in a court away from public glare. What is there to hide if you are the pure ?

 

[ramu]

Here is a set of people supporting an organisation that is BANNED by UN. If Pakistan does not think that decision is correct, it should appeal and instead if it FUNDS JuD, it shows the degree of rot.

It is fine if we are under threat and it will keep Indian security establishment on its toes. But the support for terror and violent means inherently growing inside the Pakistani mindset will wither the growth possibilities in Pakistan. It is a matter of time and the wide gap in prosperity between Pakistan and countries that started at similar times start to show up. That will be a good time for introspection but it will be too late.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Indians

How many times it is gonna be told that the funding was done to an educational institute after its management was taken over by the Provincial govt from the JuD.

So, in plain english, the school wasn't being run by the JuD. Is it so hard to understand ?? Or they don't wish to understand and keep on doing their whining.

 

[ramu]

Pakistan was not the subject of the ban, the JuD and its leadership was. Did the JuD and its leadership get a chance to defend themselves, did they accept the ban?

Did Al-Qaida defend themselves or accept the ban? NO. Did Osama get a chance ?

And yes, the EU stance does justify the stance by some Pakistanis against the UNSC sanctions since the basis of opposition in both situations is the same - that the UNSC sanctions process on alleged terrorist entities is not transparent and does not allow for the accused to defend themselves in front of a neutral judge or arbiter and is therefore a violation of their rights

Why is Pakistan not opposed to the ban? No appeal against the ban filed in UN by JuD?

There is opposition to the process and procedures followed by the UNSC in imposing these sanctions on entities, but at the same time Pakistan, even if it disagrees with the decision, cannot refuse to implement the sanctions (and has not refused), nor have I argued that it should refuse. But at the same time the flaws in the process of imposing sanctions needs to be pointed out.

So is funding JuD not a blatant U turn on the part of Pakistan when JuD is still a banned organisation?

 

[ramu]

Indians

How many times it is gonna be told that the funding was done to an educational institute after its management was taken over by the Provincial govt from the JuD.

So, in plain english, the school wasn't being run by the JuD. Is it so hard to understand ?? Or they don't wish to understand and keep on doing their whining.

Taimi, try to read thru the thread. I find more people supporting JuD and giving them the benefit of the doubt. If a country with the power of US had faced an incident like 26/11, none would lift a finger but accept what Uncle says.

Even for the argument, JuD was not funded directly or indirectly, I am appalled by the degree of support to an organisation that was not known a few years back and suddenly they are the only organisation doing development work. JuD now is know in Pakistan circles and is talked with respect and the only reason being the negative publicity it got due to Mumbai.

If Pakistan subconsciously cherish terror in India, I am sorry to say but that is barbaric and the response to such behaviour in the future will be paid in kind. If Pakistan is interested in supporting any person who stands for everything that is anti India, you can kiss peace good bye and it will get to dirty business as usual.

 

[TaimiKhan]

@ramu, can you tell why the US has not filled any charges against Osama even after nearly a decade of 9/11 happening. Not a single case filed in any court or charge sheet raised.

When the Afghans told the US that the trial under international observers should be held in Afghanistan, why the US shied away, and within 3 weeks of 9/11 happening launched its attacks on Afghanistan, was 3 weeks more then enough to show the guilt of AQ or Osama.

And i believe when H.Saeed was being tried, Indians were asked to come and show their evidence, why didn't they come ?? Why did they not present their evidence and make sure that H.Saeed is send behind bars ??

If you guys are so much sure he is the guilty man, why not go to international court and launch a case ??

 

[foxbat]

Pakistan was not the subject of the ban, the JuD and its leadership was. Did the JuD and its leadership get a chance to defend themselves, did they accept the ban?

Its irrelevant whether JuD accepted that ban or not. It was between the UNSC and Pakistan govt. Pakistan govt decided to accept the ban on JuD. Post that its their responsibility to enforce it. As far as UNSC is concerned, JuD and HS are deemed terrorists and Pakistan govt agreed with them. I did not see any message from GoP on their acceptance of that ban being conditional to Pakistani courts agreeing with them

And yes, the EU stance does justify the stance by some Pakistanis against the UNSC sanctions since the basis of opposition in both situations is the same - that the UNSC sanctions process on alleged terrorist entities is not transparent and does not allow for the accused to defend themselves in front of a neutral judge or arbiter and is therefore a violation of their rights.

Well Kofi Annan did say that the UNSC resolution on Kashmir is no longer practical. Does that in your eyes justify Indian stand on Kashmir?

Anyway, the question of rights come in when the person is to be imprisoned or prosecuted. Dont see that happening to HS..

Please read my post you are responding to carefully, 'Opposition to the ban does not equate to support for non-implementation of the requirements of the UNSC sanctions on JuD.

There is opposition to the process and procedures followed by the UNSC in imposing these sanctions on entities, but at the same time Pakistan, even if it disagrees with the decision, cannot refuse to implement the sanctions (and has not refused), nor have I argued that it should refuse. But at the same time the flaws in the process of imposing sanctions needs to be pointed out.

Legal discussion aside, how many really banned organizations and designated terrorists are able to operate the way JuD and HS does in Pakistan. As I type this, there is a news item in Indian media talking about HS hobnobbing with elected politicians.

Not that I expect Pakistani govt to act on him or Pakistani members to not oppose that ban. But the idea is highlight the fact that the UNSC when does something that is not in interest of Pakistan, it becomes an autocratic and non transperant organization, but its resolution on Kashmir is treated as an absolute word of god. Hence the double standards

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi, try to read thru the thread. I find more people supporting JuD and giving them the benefit of the doubt. If a country with the power of US had faced an incident like 26/11, none would lift a finger but accept what Uncle says.

Even for the argument, JuD was not funded directly or indirectly, I am appalled by the degree of support to an organisation that was not known a few years back and suddenly they are the only organisation doing development work. JuD now is know in Pakistan circles and is talked with respect and the only reason being the negative publicity it got due to Mumbai.

If Pakistan subconsciously cherish terror in India, I am sorry to say but that is barbaric and the response to such behaviour in the future will be paid in kind. If Pakistan is interested in supporting any person who stands for everything that is anti India, you can kiss peace good bye and it will get to dirty business as usual.

I am not in favor or JuD or organizations like that, nor killing of any single innocent Indian in India, except for the Indian occupying security forces, nor would any Pakistani like to have Indian innocents killed, or Mumbai kind of incidents taking place.

JuD isn't being supported, but we are having an argument about the Indian mindset of giving a guilty verdict without any sufficient proof having given and even when the trial happened, no evidence been given about Saeed's involvement.

And as for US, well i don't wish to talk about them, as their mindset is hegemonic, so what ever they do is never based on evidence, they have other ambitions.

And as for advising us about peace and terror things, as said, we don't like anything of that sort happening in India, but before advising us, do remember what India did to Pakistan, so unfortunately this is a tit for tat game being played, in which the loser are the people on both sides. So plz don advice us, without having looked at your own country's past.

 

[sulemani keeda]

I am not in favor or JuD or organizations like that, nor killing of any single innocent Indian in India, except for the Indian occupying security forces, nor would any Pakistani like to have Indian innocents killed, or Mumbai kind of incidents taking place.

Security personnel are human beings too. They are just doing their duties. You support their killings?? How sick are you!!

Now that I read your mind, I dont feel saddened if any of your security personnel is killed.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Carnage in Pindi army mosque as Taliban breach security

 

[ramu]

@ramu, can you tell why the US has not filled any charges against Osama even after nearly a decade of 9/11 happening. Not a single case filed in any court or charge sheet raised.

When the Afghans told the US that the trial under international observers should be held in Afghanistan, why the US shied away, and within 3 weeks of 9/11 happening launched its attacks on Afghanistan, was 3 weeks more then enough to show the guilt of AQ or Osama.

And i believe when H.Saeed was being tried, Indians were asked to come and show their evidence, why didn't they come ?? Why did they not present their evidence and make sure that H.Saeed isn't send behind bars ??

If you guys are so much sure he is the guilty man, why not go to international court and launch a case ??

I will tell you why. If a terror plot is hatched and its roots are in Afghanistan, will you get a video of Osama sitting next to the terrorists and telling them what to do ? Be realistic.

The US did the right thing. If not, the case would have ended up like the case currently on in Pakistan that does not seem to end nor does anyone have visibility.

And yes Indians don't have the evidence to show H. Saeed instructing the terrorists captured on a spy camera. Is that what Pakistan was looking for ?

If Pakistan is not cooperative, no international court will be able to prove him guilty as the events happened in the soil of Pakistan. India in the next event of a terrorist strike will have no choice but to use other means to try and get justice.

 

[mjnaushad]

Security personnel are human beings too. They are just doing their duties. You support their killings?? How sick are you!!

Now that I read your mind, I dont feel saddened if any of your security personnel is killed.

You are saying like you do get sad when our army personnel get killed.

Be realistic. With all you post on this forum. I can see how much "love" you have for us.

And BTW our security personnel dont get killed on disputed territory.

 

[mjnaushad]

I will tell you why. If a terror plot is hatched and its roots are in Afghanistan, will you get a video of Osama sitting next to the terrorists and telling them what to do ? Be realistic.

The US did the right thing. If not, the case would have ended up like the case currently on in Pakistan that does not seem to end nor does anyone have visibility.

And yes Indians don't have the evidence to show H. Saeed instructing the terrorists captured on a spy camera. Is that what Pakistan was looking for ?

If Pakistan is not cooperative, no international court will be able to prove him guilty as the events happened in the soil of Pakistan. India in the next event of a terrorist strike will have no choice but to use other means to try and get justice.

So on what bases you make him responsible for terror attack on India. And as taimi said you had a chance to prove him guilty when you were invited to the case against HS. But you missed your chance.