Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[CriticalThought]

For @amardeep mishra please have a look at the attached picture. This is an excerpt from the book 'The China Threat: How the People's Republic Targets America' published in 2002. It shows the realities of nuclear programmes and especially nuclear research done by third world countries, Pakistan and India included.

 

[The Accountant]

no it won't we do need surface assets too.

subs can't do much but ships can guide the missiles launched by the ground based launchers but it depends where the ship is? how far can it see(hight of the mast)?does it have net centric capabilities?
best thing to guide the missiles are air based systems like zdk 03 and p 3 as they can see much further than ships and get in position relatively faster.

it is good as dead. 8 hq 7 short range missile magazine of f22p are worthless if saturation attack happen as ciws can only do so much.we need more sams on the ships not the land attack cruise missiles as posted by some members here that job can be done through land based systems too but land base systems can't protect a ship from the attack thats the job it has to do itself (in most cases).

yes use small but many missile boats, coastal launchers and guiding aircraft combo with great fighter cover all woven with each other through data links and you are set for a good defence (not offence).


bro we are talking about a sub here where even a running crew member can potentially give away its position.and you want to stealthily launch a surface to air missile from it.

Ok lets consider it for the sake of argument ... Against P8 it would be sucidal but against strike platform which cannot see under water it would be a total surprise ...

 

[Hell hound]

Ok lets consider it for the sake of argument ... Against P8 it would be sucidal but against strike platform which cannot see under water it would be a total surprise ...

what other type of air target are we talking about here execpt p8 and asw helis pls elaborate.so we can discuss it better

 

[amardeep mishra]

For @amardeep mishra please have a look at the attached picture. This is an excerpt from the book 'The China Threat: How the People's Republic Targets America' published in 2002. It shows the realities of nuclear programmes and especially nuclear research done by third world countries, Pakistan and India included.

Hi @CriticalThought
This piece of article that you have attached above seems pretty old--at least 15 years old or more.in case you don't know let me re iterate,BARC happens to be on ban list of America.I.e US companies can't trade with BARC. BARC is strictly cut off. Various special alloys and sensors are strictly off limit. It was because of this ban that India has progressed tremendously in the field if civilian energy reactors.Indian industry can design and produce huge pressure vessels,pressurizers, turbines etc etc. BARC have end to end reactor design and fabrication facilities. In fact if you delve deeper you can find plethora of research papers coming out of BARC in the field of thorium,fast breeder,AHWR,CHTR reactors.
In fact a commercial fast breeder reactor rated at 500MW is operational at kalpakkam hardly 70kms from IIT-madras.research work on 3rd generation advanced heavy water reactor consuming thorium is in advanced stages of design.in fact AHWR-300 is what India has offered to a lot of countries in the lines similar to Chinese 330MW LWR.

Reactor will be revealed really soon

@Zarvan
Let's see how "soon" Pakistan can design this reactor especially when the country has literally no experience in designing any kind of nuclear power plant let alone a miniaturized one!.but till then we'll be better off waiting than wasting our time in speculations. What boggles my mind is how come Pakistanis without paying any serious attention to the research culture, industrial capabilities of their country start speculating.Anyways as I said, I'd rather wait till Pakistan actually designs her own nuclear power plant.

 

[The Accountant]

what other type of air target are we talking about here execpt p8 and asw helis pls elaborate.so we can discuss it better

It could be against MIG and MKI ... Some sort of passive sensor that can track radar of MKI without coming on the top ... And then delivering an active or passive radar homing missile

 

[ghazi768]

The issue with the nuclear submarine program has to do a lot with platform and power generation requirements as coming up with a Golf class retrofit for a conventional sub with a scaled AIP was found to be infeasible.(why is beyond me). The reactor was well advanced in its design phases some 5 years ago and construction on the facilities has been underway before that.

There will be a test ship that could very well be a Yuan or a different class to essentially trial the powerplant.

I am not questioning the existence/non-existence of R&D in nuclear propulsion, it is best for me not to comment on it at all. I was just mentioning the operational issues and pros and cons of it.

I do not know about the Golf class but I think a testbed with AIP and 6000 ton displacement was launched in China and is tested/being tested. 6000-7000 tons is not out of reach for Diesel-electrics, if I remember correctly the first SSBN Soviets launched was a 5000-6000 tons with 3 SLBMs.

 

[PDF]

http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/does-pakistan-have-a-sea-based-second-strike-capability/
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...ise-missiles-nuclear-submarine-us-think-tank/
http://www.asian-defence.net/2014/02/pakistans-nuclear-submarine-development.html
http://quwa.org/2016/05/11/part-1-will-pakistan-now-seek-nuclear-submarines/
http://quwa.org/2016/05/12/part-2-will-pakistan-now-seek-nuclear-submarines/

 

[SQ8]

I am not questioning the existence/non-existence of R&D in nuclear propulsion, it is best for me not to comment on it at all. I was just mentioning the operational issues and pros and cons of it.

I do not know about the Golf class but I think a testbed with AIP and 6000 ton displacement was launched in China and is tested/being tested. 6000-7000 tons is not out of reach for Diesel-electrics, if I remember correctly the first SSBN Soviets launched was a 5000-6000 tons with 3 SLBMs.

Like I mentioned, the logic of why the reactor is being pursued is beyond me. The nuclear aspect has its advantages in loitering time but beyond that a large AIP SSB could perform the same function. Especially since it does not look like that we intend to have a standing patrol and it will usually be a deployment during tense times.

I have a question if you could answer. We know that nuclear subs cant be bought but they sure can be leased. So if a nuclear sub is a part of our deterrent, why havent we leased a sub from China? Leasing could give two benefits 1) we will have a platform rather quicker with second strike capability and 2) we will get a platform to work with and from there we can move on on our own.
Your thoughts?

I cant comment on whether this was considered or not. The program is VERY VERY secretive and sketchy in terms of what platforms or direction it takes. What is verifiable with a high degree of correlation is that there are MORE platforms than the 8 S-20s the PN is considering.

@Oscar sir just a wierd question ... I am not sure whether you can answere or not ... Is there any submarine capable of underwater to air missiles to hunt down planes ... Specially anti.submarine warfare type ...

Resident expert and human-penguin can answer this better @Penguin

@Oscar It's worth noting that the Chinese have been floating a technology demonstrator in the Qing-class. The hull was designed with VLS for SLBMs and SLCMs, but the Qing is markedly smaller and lighter than the PLAN's existing SSN and SSBN designs. Granted, the Qing demonstrator is conventionally powered, but if it is ever put into production, it is likely the PLAN would power it with a reactor. All I am saying is that if Pakistan manages to succeed in producing a miniaturized nuclear reactor that has sufficient energy output and an acceptable amount of acoustic vulnerability, there are hulls out there that can take it. Just speaking theoretically.

I cant comment on what platform, just that there are two more platforms to be developed. The timeline could well extend out to 2020's before we hear anything concrete as the strike mission has evolved beyond nuclear equipped cruise missiles.

 

[Bratva]

Like I mentioned, the logic of why the reactor is being pursued is beyond me. The nuclear aspect has its advantages in loitering time but beyond that a large AIP SSB could perform the same function. Especially since it does not look like that we intend to have a standing patrol and it will usually be a deployment during tense times.

Are you following North korea Sub launched Ballistic missile program ? Their recent tests from conventional Sub were successful and it seems they achieved this capability within 5 year of R&D.

If North korea can do this, then there must be some strong reason Pakistan is holding back Sub launch cruise and Ballistic missile capability

 

[SQ8]

Are you following North korea Sub launched Ballistic missile program ? Their recent tests from conventional Sub were successful and it seems they achieved this capability within 5 year of R&D.

If North korea can do this, then there must be some strong reason Pakistan is holding back Sub launch cruise and Ballistic missile capability

NK is a mix of capability and bluster. Back in the 90's their ballistic missile program was pretty advanced for a country that is considered a quagmire for the modern world.
Their scientests were freelancing around the world along with Ex-Soviet republic ones and some assisted us while some assisted the Indians. I repeat a story on how Indian and Pakistani representatives sat in the same drawing room of a "dealer" who makes these contacts looking at each other. Both guessing what the other was here for

 

[thrilainmanila]

NK is a mix of capability and bluster. Back in the 90's their ballistic missile program was pretty advanced for a country that is considered a quagmire for the modern world.
Their scientests were freelancing around the world along with Ex-Soviet republic ones and some assisted us while some assisted the Indians. I repeat a story on how Indian and Pakistani representatives sat in the same drawing room of a "dealer" who makes these contacts looking at each other. Both guessing what the other was here for

why go to NK why not go directly to the main supplier. NK buys its designs and technology from China.

 

[Bratva]

The issue with the nuclear submarine program has to do a lot with platform and power generation requirements as coming up with a Golf class retrofit for a conventional sub with a scaled AIP was found to be infeasible.(why is beyond me). The reactor was well advanced in its design phases some 5 years ago and construction on the facilities has been underway before that.

There will be a test ship that could very well be a Yuan or a different class to essentially trial the powerplant.

As per @Arsalan past posts the work on rector design is been on hold for several years due to financial constraints

 

[YeBeWarned]

I repeat a story on how Indian and Pakistani representatives sat in the same drawing room of a "dealer" who makes these contacts looking at each other. Both guessing what the other was here for

That must be an Awkward moment for both

 

[Penguin]

The Accountant said: ↑
@Oscar sir just a wierd question ... I am not sure whether you can answere or not ... Is there any submarine capable of underwater to air missiles to hunt down planes ... Specially anti.submarine warfare type ...

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-navy-the-phoenix-rises.454569/page-16#ixzz4MuhAaNLk
Resident expert and human-penguin can answer this better @Penguin

The IDAS variant is a navalized version of the IRIS-T air-to-air missile missile, is also being developed for the new Type 212 submarine of the German Navy. IDAS is supposed to engage air threats, small or medium surface vessels or near land targets..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T#IDAS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDAS_(missile)

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ns-idas-common-submarine-missile-project.html

http://www.diehl.com/en/diehl-defence/products/guided-missiles/idas.html

Four fit in a container which is inserted in the sub's launch tube.

 

[Thorough Pro]

@Oscar sir just a wierd question ... I am not sure whether you can answere or not ... Is there any submarine capable of underwater to air missiles to hunt down planes ... Specially anti.submarine warfare type ...