Pakistan Navy Submarines: A Silent Force to Reckon with!

Discussion in 'Pakistan Navy' started by Myth_buster_1, Sep 20, 2009.

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  1. Myth_buster_1
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    Myth_buster_1 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Pakistan has a long history of submarine service going back to June 1, 1964 when the first submarine PNS-M GHAZI, built in the United States was inducted into the Pakistan Fleet. Four Daphne class submarines were purchased from France in 1969-70 and in 1979 two Agosta class submarines were also purchased from France. This small and highly effective submarine arm of the Pakistan Navy, armed with wire-guided torpedoes and later with Harpoon missiles, is a powerful force to be reckoned with and capable of dealing with any aggressor or a regional bully.

    The induction of the new Agosta B-90 submarine will add a greater punch to the Pakistan Fleet. It has an overall length of 67 meters and a submerged speed of about 40 knots. It can dive deeper than 300 meters and with the help of new technology its submerged endurance capability is over 60 days. It is capable of being equipped with multi-purpose torpedoes and Exocet SM-39 anti-ship missile. Both capable of being launched while the submarine is submerged.

    Pakistan Navy's submarine arm has a great fighting tradition and has created a name for itself in combat. During the 1965 Indo-Pak War, when Pakistan had only one submarine, acquired a year earlier, it was able to bottle-up the Indian Navy while operating outside Bombay (Mumbai) harbour. It was a vertual blockade conducted not against merchant ships but against Naval ships who were reluctant to leave the safety of ports for fear of a lone submarine PNS-M GHAZI, operating in Indian territorial waters outside Bombay.

    PNS-M GHAZI under the Command of Commander (Later Admiral) K.R. Niazi operated in Indian territorial waters from 6 to 23 September 1965 and sank two two Indian Warships during the period. The officers and sailors of GHAZI including her Captain were given ten operational awards for gallantry in operations during combat. These included two Sitara-i-Jurat and two Tamgha-i-Jurat.

    On the second day of the 1965 Indo-Pak War, Pakistan Naval flotilla ships, BABUR, BADR, KHAIBAR, TIPPU SULTAN, SHAH JAHAN, JAHANGIR and ALAMGIR sailed out of Karachi and headed south towards the Indian Naval base at Bombay. The flotilla was under Commodore S. M. Anwar, Commander of the fleet who flew his flag on board the Cruiser PNS BABUR. The object of this deep sea-foray was to entice the Indian Navy out of their ports and give them battle at Sea. Where they could be dealt with by the submarine GHAZI in conjunction with the surface fleet. The Indian Navy's Western flotilla based in Bombay stayed in port, discretion being the better part of valour, and did not accept battle. On its return passage the Pakistan flotilla bombarded the port of Dwarka hoping that the Indian Naval frigate TALWAR would sail out from Okka next door. But TALWAR also decided to stay in port.

    Pakistan Navy's performance in the 1965 Indo-Pak War is vividly described by India's Vice Admiral Mihir Roy, a former Commander of the aircraft carrier VIKRANT and Commander-in-Chief of India's Eastern Naval Command, in his book 'War in the Indian Ocean' published in 1995. He writes, 'But the Bombayites failed to understand the lack of success by the Indian fleet, especially with sirens wailing, Jamnagar attacked and Dwarka shelled. But nonetheless, the naval bombardment of Dwarka with the Indian fleet still preparing to sail was an affront to the sailors in white, who could not understand what was holding the fleet back'.

    As Indian Vice Admiral N. Krishnan is reported to have said 'One of our frigates, TALWAR, was in Okka. It is unfortunate that she could not sail forth and seek battle. Even if there was a mandate against the Navy participating in the war, no Government would blame a warship going into action, if attacked. An affront to our national honour is no joke and we cannot laugh it away by saying 'All the Pakistanis did was to kill a cow'.

    As the Indian Army was expanded and revamped after its defeat by the Chinese in 1962, similarly stung by its humiliation in the naval encounter with the Pakistan Navy in 1965 India tripled its naval power in the next six years between 1965-71. This was done in an effort to dominate the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal and project her power into the Indian Ocean, as there was no sea - threat whatsoever to her security.

    During the 1971 Indo-Pak War owing to the dread of PNS-M GHAZI the Indian aircraft carrier VIKRANT was moved out of Bombay to Cochin and in October all the way to their eastern sea-board and finally not content even with the security of their massive naval base at Vishakapatnam they had it moved to the back-waters of Port Blair in the Andamans. GHAZI sailed out of Karachi on November 14, 1971, under the Command of Commander Zafar Mohammad Khan and a complement of 92 officers and sailors. GHAZI had to travel 3,000 miles of the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal looking for the VIKRANT. Having failed to locate the Indian aircraft carrier it proceeded to lay maines at the entrance to the Indian eastern Naval base of Vishakapatnam. Where on the night of December 3-4, 1971 it met a tragedy and blew up presumably on its own mine.

    Operating in the Arabian Sea another Pakistan submarine PNS-M HANGOR hit an Indian anti-submarine frigate KHUKRI in Kathiawar blowing up its magazine with a torpedo and sinking it in a few minutes. The HANGOR also damaged another Indian Naval ship KIRPAN which managed to escape into shallow waters. The Indian Naval flotilla on their Western sea-board also kept close to their ports and in shallow waters for safety, rarely venturing into the open sea for fear of the submarines being operated by the Pakistan Navy.

    During the two major wars with India the Pakistan Navy has successfully kept the nations sea-lanes open and prevented any interference from hostile Naval forces.
    The submarine arm has played a vital role in this regard. During the Kargil operations the Indian Navy had announced its intentions of blockading the Pakistani coast-line when required. This statement was for their public consumption only and to raise their sagging morale after the Indian Army and Air Force's incompetence in the fighting on the Kargil heights.

    On the arrival of the latest Agosta B-90 submarine India concluded a large sea exercise in the Arabian Sea. Vice Admiral J.S. Bedi Chief of Staff of India's Western Naval Command told reporters that the 15-day exercise in the Arabian Sea saw the test-firing of two missiles and involved 35 ships, four submarines and 30 aircraft. The missiles tested were a surface-to-surface and a surface-to-air, he added without elaborating. 'This exercise was basically to validate concepts devised in the post-Kargil conflict scenario and in a high alert situation', Vice Admiral Bedi said.
    :woot:
    The Pakistan Navy is aware of Indian intentions to dominate the Arabian Sea and has the determination and skill to protect the country's sea-frontiers and keep open its sea-lanes. The new Agosta B-90 is a useful and potent addition to its fighting ability.

    :pakistan:
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  2. Myth_buster_1
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    Myth_buster_1 SENIOR MEMBER

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    And why are you trolling? What is the tittle of this thread? if you are interested in posting your video then kindly open new thread in indian section..
    Btw a surprised attack by missile boats... PN did not even have CIWS on board their ships so of course any naval ship is prone to missiles without any air defence system. i am sure if PN also had missile boats at that time then they would have also inflicted as much damage to the indian side.. India had a huge huge technical advantage in 71 war.. they simply out numbered us.. Plus the biggest advantage was the AShM against naval targets..

    :Mod Edit: Quoted links removed
  3. R.A.W.
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    R.A.W. BANNED

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    No offense and troll intended it was just an reply to your quote of

    "During the two major wars with India the Pakistan Navy has successfully kept the nations sea-lanes open and prevented any interference from hostile Naval forces. "
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  4. Righteous_Fire
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    Righteous_Fire ELITE MEMBER

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    Pakistan Navy and the overblown threat hysteria of the Indian Media



    Unfortunately Pakistan has been much less aquatic as far as naval assets are concerned - and the total naval hands at 22,000, its strength is just about one and a half infantry division's strength. Naval assets - in any case are expensive - and we have to do the best with whatever we have. We cannot afford expensive and gargantuan carriers - nor we claim to be a blue water Navy. Our naval strategy hinges on keeping of our sea lanes open - and the defence of the all important Karachi harbour..............

    ...............Everytime there is a change in the Pakistani naval assets -notwithstanding the overall Indian supremacy - the Indian Press engulfs itself in frenzy and hysterical articles start appearing there. Take for example the 'Indian Express' New Delhi of 19 November 1999. here are some gems from a piece from Sandeep Unnithan:

    'Pakistan's New Agosta submarines with their sea launched Exocets could increase its capability to deny the seas to the Indian Navy....'

    ' India's response is proceeding at a snail's pace and bureaucratic delays have critically affected the Indian Navy's capability to replace obsolete ships....'

    And then Mr Rahul Roy-Chaudhry a research fellow at IDSA (Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses) says '... The balance is not going to shift with one submarine but it gives Pakistan a qualitative edge - this is a submarine designed in the late eighties, is quieter and faster and has greater capabilities....'

    The 'Indian Express' continues with their lament '... The KHALID comes armed with the SM-39 Exocet submarine launched anti-ship missiles (AShM) with a range of 50 Km. Launched from beneath the surface, an AShM gives a submarine valuable manoeuvring time after firing the missile and is inherently more dangerous than a torpedo.... This capability is currently not available with the Indian Navy....'

    The lament continues - and it is good that it continues. Here it is '... But it is the imminent transfer of revolutionary Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology with these three new submarines that could prove to be really worrisome for the Indian Navy. AIP increases the underwater stay of conventional submarines nearly four fold from five days to 20 days, giving the sort of endurance usually associated with nuclear submarines...' The AIP plant which is fitted into the submarines - a combination of pressurised oxygen and ethanol in onboard tanks feed the engines internally and increases its endurance.

    The Indian predicament is that most of their naval assets are of Soviet (Ex) origin - and now they are finding difficulty in establishing economic rapport with Russia which is passing through a period of economic stress - and cannot accept Indian rupees/ other barter arrangements for transferring weapon systems. That problem always arises if one depends on a single source of supply of military hardware.

    A few words about the Agosta contract - and that's again from the Indian sources. Roy Choudhri calls it a great leap forward from building mere patrol boats and writes '... As per the contract with France the third Agosta 90-B to be built indigenously by Pakistan (around 2005) will be equipped with a French Mesma AIP plant, which will later be retrofitted in the other two vessels. In effect the third indigenously - built submarine in this ($ 1 billion deal) will give Pakistan the critical capability to indigenously build submarines in the future'. (India is already doing this.)

    Of course there should be no doubt that the Agosta deal is a part of the Pakistani Navy's efforts to retain the qualitative rather than quantitative edge over the vastly superior Indian Navy.

    By and large the Pakistani acquisition of the submarines has also been quite eclectic - and the Daphnes are as old as 27 years or so and it is only the recently acquired 'prowlers of the deep' which have enhanced submarine prowess of the Pakistan Navy.




    ============================================
    Hysteria
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2009
  5. Arsalan
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    Arsalan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    well with the U214 comming home we will get an edge over the indian submarine fleet for sure. perhaps if we can get two or three additional subs, either the U214 or even the agostas it will be ideal!

    regards!
  6. MZUBAIR
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    MZUBAIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    Pakistan Navey Fleet.

    11 Frigates (including USS McInerney (FFG-8) , 2010)
    3 Mine hunters
    12 Missile Boats (can fire cruise/Ballastic/ Harpoon (un-relaibale resources))
    4 Multi Role Tactical Platform
    8 Auxiliary
    1 Training vessel
    4 Hover Crafts
    12 Patrol boats
    5 Submarines (Active)

    PN Aviation

    3 Westland Lynx - anti-ship/anti-submarine/transport helicopters
    6 Westland Sea King Mk45 - transport helicopters
    8 Aérospatiale SA-319B Alouette III - transport/anti-ship helicopters
    4 Lockheed P-3C Orion - maritime surveillance/anti-submarine warfare aircraft/airborne early warning. Future supply of 6 more.
    7 Fokker F27-200 Friendship - maritime surveillance aircraft
    2 Breguet Atlantique I - maritime surveillance/anti-submarine warfare aircraft.
    12+ Dassault Mirage V - anti-ship attack aircraft (2 Complete Sqd with total of 40 till 2010)
    5 + Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (total 20 req)
    2 Z-9EC helicopters (4 more arrive in 2010)
  7. raveolution
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    raveolution FULL MEMBER

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    I'm sorry but you are quoting a 10 year old article. At that time the IN probably was insecure as it had no answer to the Agosta 90B's. It practically had only one AC, no Delhi Class destroyers or dominant air assets. But today it has more frigates, has ordered Scorpene's and P8I's alongwith going for a massive shipbuilding programme to turn the tables.
  8. raveolution
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    Just another thought. Pakistan needs to firm up and sign its U214 purchase asap as the Indian Navy is moving full steam ahead in its acquisition program.

    The submarines fleet now and in the future is as follows-

    Active
    10 Kilo Class
    4 Type 209 Class
    2 Foxtrot Class

    Planned
    2 Akula II - 2009 & 2011
    6 ATV's - 2012-17
    6 Scorpene Class - 2012-17
    6 P75B-1 Class (RFP's issued) - 2015-20
  9. ejaz007
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    Comparison can only be carried out between assets available to each navy. Future inductions if any are not included because these are subject to a number of factors. No one knows for sure if planned assets shall be purchased and inducted or not.

    Changing requirements some times change the situation and this leads to change in plans.
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  10. UchihaCG
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    UchihaCG BANNED

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    Don't compare the Indian navy with the Pakistani Navy.
    We "must" have a better navy than Pakistan. Simply because our coastline is much bigger.
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  11. MZUBAIR
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    MZUBAIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    U cannot compare or chose batter Navy by coastline.
    India has larger warfleeet, however it never means that Indian Navy is superior.
    At the moment (Current fleet) both countries have balanced strength and unbalanced quantity.

    Indian Warfleet

    Pakistan Warfleet
    Yes, India has larger fleet but Pakistan have enough for minimum defence.
    Pakistan Navy role is only defence not to attack where Indian always insurgency.

    But looking future plans....India looks have a upper edge.

    But its just a plan.......as Indian planned for LCA and MRCA........which delayed too long.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
  12. TOPGUN
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    TOPGUN PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    PN indeds needs to speed up the process of these subs and its over all fleet ! and we can see a little way ahead things do take time.. anyhow as per comparing of the indian & Pakistani navies they can not be compared in anyway or form reality check there !!
  13. Myth_buster_1
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    Myth_buster_1 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hey just one one A-90B without AIP can not change the tide. IN was and still is the superior force.
  14. navtrek
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    navtrek SENIOR MEMBER

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    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
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  15. UchihaCG
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    That's true; that's not necessarely always the case though. Coming to our navies.

    Balanced strength? Indian Navy can step on Pakistan without hesitation. What makes you say this "balanced" strength?


    Insurgency? who has the 60 years of non-agression? Pakistan? I think not.

    LCA and MRCA aren't the navy =)

    Pakistan's submarines are nice i'll admit. Plz look at navtrek's post.


    INS Arihant :sniper: