Pakistan has cost effective solutions to India’s ballistic missile defence system

[HRK]

CM-401 Hypersonic Land-attack/Anti-Ship Quasi Ballistic Missile
Can launch from ground/ship and hit large ships/ground targets 290km out.

M-20A/B Hypersonic Land-Attack/Anti-Ship Quasi Ballistic Missile
Land launched, can strike 290km away.

HD-1 Supersonic Land-attack/Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile
Can launch from ground/ship and hit large ships/ground targets 290km out.

I was thinking along the line of Rail gun not in particular reference to S-400 but to SAM systems in general as it will give her user multiple smaller projectiles moving at hypersonic speed towards their target with a different trajectory than trajectories for which SAM systems are design ....??

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Although there are many many ways to come across a radar or missile system and survive, yet one of the easiest options is when Turkey gets S-400, study, analyse and test the ranges, frequencies, azimuths, reaction time etc of the S-400 radar system. Check the radars inter-operatibility with other missile systems.
Finally, exercise with TuAF using F-16's and JF-17's against S-400.


Not all plans/policies are told in correct technical terms to the media. Pakistan is sending a message across, not a battle plan.

And, Turkey has the anecdote too!!! ASELSAN KORAL EW system....

I don't think the message is getting across, unfortunately.

Maybe, they have just put down the receiver....

I dunno man, that false sense of security has its market value...countries will pay billions to have that false sense of security.

Folks live their entire lives in false security till they meet Hazret-i Azrail (AS) and the accompanying entourage.....

Russia has the ultimate deterrent i.e. 2nd largest nuclear stockpile in the world. She knows damn well that no one would dare attack her but to be able to market its weapons, it FIRST has to prove that "I'm not only the seller, I'm also a buyer". You have to remember, unlike other countries, Russia only has 3 thinks it can export, oil, gas and WEAPONS! So it has make its weapons marketable.

No wonder top $s are give to the "technical sales/marketing" and "business legal" folks...

For a reason, affluent parents spend 100Ks of $s on their kids for an "education" at the top notch business/law schools!!!! Technical fields are for the wannabe immigrant niggars...

 

[The Deterrent]

I was thinking along the line of Rail gun not in particular reference to S-400 but to SAM systems in general as it will give her user multiple smaller projectiles moving at hypersonic speed towards their target with a different trajectory than trajectories for which SAM systems are design ....??

You mean Rail-gun projectiles as offensive weapons, to take out targets on land?

 

[Mentee]

Folks live their entire lives in false security till they meet Hazret-i Azrail (AS) and the accompanying entourage....

Seems like in your neck of the woods he never comes alone

 

[HRK]

You mean Rail-gun projectiles as offensive weapons, to take out targets on land?

I was thinking to target platforms carrying SAM missiles and Radars by using Rail gun in offensive role, IF this method is employed (or tested) than there must be higher chances of it to completely avoid the SAM missiles as no SAM system is design to takeout such small projectiles with high speed.

Rail gun projectiles should also bypass point defence missiles systems which are used to defend SAMs and BMDs sites such as Pantsir missile system, again the reason would be hypersonic speed and small size of the projectiles of rail gun.

 

[The Deterrent]

I was thinking to target platforms carrying SAM missiles and Radars by using Rail gun in offensive role, IF this method is employed (or tested) than there must be higher chances of it to completely avoid the SAM missiles as no SAM system is design to takeout such small projectiles with high speed.

Rail gun projectiles should also bypass point defence missiles systems which are used to defend SAMs and BMDs sites such as Pantsir missile system, again the reason would be hypersonic speed and small size of the projectiles of rail gun.

This approach would have very low probability of success. Aside from the fact that its very difficult to locate a mobile SAM system, and assuming Pakistan has access to these systems and can afford them...
You have to consider that at the end of the day, high-velocity projectiles (HVP) launched by these rail-guns are small and inert (metallic, non-explosive). They could theoretically bypass a SAM shield because of smaller size, but what are you going to target with such small projectiles? It would be nearly impossible to design a HVP that can target individual vehicles accurately, since the targets have minimal signature and size. Against ships it makes sense since they can blow a hole in the hull beneath the waterline, in a relatively huge target.

I mentioned a few cost-effective approaches a while ago, which could be much more beneficial in restoring the balance:

Improving existing capabilities:
1. Accelerate development of Ababeel MIRVed system.
2. Develop decoys & counter measures for RVs for missiles in development (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-III).
3. Develop MaRVs for existing systems (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-II, Shaheen-III).
4. Develop very low-observable (stealthier) versions of existing Babur & Ra'ad cruise missiles.
5. Produce more conventional ballistic & cruise missiles.

Add new capabilities:
1. Research & develop ADM-160 MALD -like decoy missiles.
2. "Buy" BMD-penetrating offensive weapons like CX-1/HD-1 supersonic CMs, CM-401/M-20 hypersonic QBMs.
3. Buy J-31 for PAF to deploy in SEAD ops against S-400 batteries.

 

[CriticalThought]

This approach would have very low probability of success. Aside from the fact that its very difficult to locate a mobile SAM system, and assuming Pakistan has access to these systems and can afford them...
You have to consider that at the end of the day, high-velocity projectiles (HVP) launched by these rail-guns are small and inert (metallic, non-explosive). They could theoretically bypass a SAM shield because of smaller size, but what are you going to target with such small projectiles? It would be nearly impossible to design a HVP that can target individual vehicles accurately, since the targets have minimal signature and size. Against ships it makes sense since they can blow a hole in the hull beneath the waterline, in a relatively huge target.

I mentioned a few cost-effective approaches a while ago, which could be much more beneficial in restoring the balance:

Improving existing capabilities:
1. Accelerate development of Ababeel MIRVed system.
2. Develop decoys & counter measures for RVs for missiles in development (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-III).
3. Develop MaRVs for existing systems (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-II, Shaheen-III).
4. Develop very low-observable (stealthier) versions of existing Babur & Ra'ad cruise missiles.
5. Produce more conventional ballistic & cruise missiles.

Add new capabilities:
1. Research & develop ADM-160 MALD -like decoy missiles.
2. "Buy" BMD-penetrating offensive weapons like CX-1/HD-1 supersonic CMs, CM-401/M-20 hypersonic QBMs.
3. Buy J-31 for PAF to deploy in SEAD ops against S-400 batteries.

A SAM is useless if it can't protect targets or take out aircrafts. Standoff hypersonic cruise missiles achieve both. The SAM now becomes a paper weight.

 

[LeGenD]

Improving existing capabilities:
1. Accelerate development of Ababeel MIRVed system.
2. Develop decoys & counter measures for RVs for missiles in development (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-III).
3. Develop MaRVs for existing systems (Shaheen-IA, Shaheen-II, Shaheen-III).
4. Develop very low-observable (stealthier) versions of existing Babur & Ra'ad cruise missiles.
5. Produce more conventional ballistic & cruise missiles.

Add new capabilities:
1. Research & develop ADM-160 MALD -like decoy missiles.
2. "Buy" BMD-penetrating offensive weapons like CX-1/HD-1 supersonic CMs, CM-401/M-20 hypersonic QBMs.
3. Buy J-31 for PAF to deploy in SEAD ops against S-400 batteries.

India wants to embroil Pakistan in a costly arms race, to the extent that Pakistan bankrupt itself and fall apart from within. You see - S400 systems have not reached India yet but we are already nervous.

India is preparing for the worse: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...n-now-take-decoys-thats-really-big-deal-28627

Those hypersonic QBMs are export gimmicks. They have to eventually come down after belly dancing phase, to strike at the target, and this is the stage when they will be taken out.

We definitely need J-31 and EA-18G Growler types.

 

[CriticalThought]

India wants to embroil Pakistan in a costly arms race, to the extent that Pakistan bankrupt itself and fall apart from within. You see - S400 systems have not reached India yet but we are already nervous.

India is preparing for the worse: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...n-now-take-decoys-thats-really-big-deal-28627

Those hypersonic QBMs are export gimmicks. They have to eventually come down after belly dancing phase, to strike at the target, and this is the stage when they will be taken out.

We definitely need J-31 and EA-18G Growler types.

The sheer momentum means they can't be taken out. You don't need a counter strike, you need a counter momentum. No one in the whole world has the technology to stop a hypersonic cruise missile.

 

[LeGenD]

The sheer momentum means they can't be taken out. You don't need a counter strike, you need a counter momentum. No one in the whole world has the technology to stop a hypersonic cruise missile.

Bro,

CM-401 is a maneuverable ballistic missile (similar to Russian Iskander-M but relatively smaller in size and resultant range). Do not get me wrong - it is an impressive piece of hardware and Pakistan should consider inducting it. No harm in expanding our set of options.

However, do not be fooled; every solid-fueled ballistic missile is a hypersonic projectile in reality (speeds in excess of MACH 5). Hypersonic label is a captivating sales pitch though.

And the assumption that projectiles moving at hypersonic speeds are impossible counter, is absolutely false. State-of-the-art BMDS are being optimized to defeat these hypersonic projectiles in terminal phase such as PAC-3 MSE, SM-2 Block IV, SM-6, Arrow 3 and THAAD, and response time of each is amazing to say the least. SM-3 Block IB, SM-3 Block IIA and GMD are midcourse solutions (exo- atmospheric) on the other hand. We are lucky in the sense that India does not have this kind of stuff in its inventory. However, growing Indo-US ties is a problem.

Indian relations with Russia and Israel are already paying dividends. Besides induction of S-400 (Russian contribution), we need to keep an eye on the evolution of Barak-8 interceptors for use in Indian Kolkata Class destroyers and Indian AAD program (Israeli contributions).

FYI: https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/ind...shoots-down-ballistic-missile-target-in-test/

My concern is that these advancements will eventually undermine the element of deterrence in the subcontinent, and at some point, somebody will be tempted to press the trigger (I do not trust Indians - advanced weapons in wrong hands is a problem). This would be the day when millions will loose their lives in short order, and a tragedy of even bigger scale will ensue afterwards.

In regards to defeating hypersonic cruise missiles, Glide Breaker prototypes are under development.

Things are heading in the wrong direction now. Pakistan needs to think beyond the lines of hard responses to emerging threats in the region; we should be in the position to pull strings in Washington DC, Moscow, Tel Aviv and Beijing, to our benefit - when necessary. This is possible with economic sustainability in the picture (beggars have no respect), and having a vibrant foreign policy (broader connections). Unfortunately, scores of Pakistani think on the lines of weapons and righteousness only - no sense of strategic depth (psychological inhibitions).

 

[CriticalThought]

Bro,

CM-401 is a maneuverable ballistic missile (similar to Russian Iskander-M but relatively smaller in size and resultant range). Do not get me wrong - it is an impressive piece of hardware and Pakistan should consider inducting it. No harm in expanding our set of options.

However, do not be fooled; every solid-fueled ballistic missile is a hypersonic projectile in reality (speeds in excess of MACH 5). Hypersonic label is a captivating sales pitch though.

And the assumption that projectiles moving at hypersonic speeds are impossible counter, is absolutely false. State-of-the-art BMDS are being optimized to defeat these hypersonic projectiles in terminal phase such as PAC-3 MSE, SM-2 Block IV, SM-6, Arrow 3 and THAAD, and response time of each is amazing to say the least. SM-3 Block IB, SM-3 Block IIA and GMD are midcourse solutions (exo- atmospheric) on the other hand. We are lucky in the sense that India does not have this kind of stuff in its inventory. However, growing Indo-US ties is a problem.

Indian relations with Russia and Israel are already paying dividends. Besides induction of S-400 (Russian contribution), we need to keep an eye on the evolution of Barak-8 interceptors for use in Indian Kolkata Class destroyers and Indian AAD program (Israeli contributions).

FYI: https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/ind...shoots-down-ballistic-missile-target-in-test/

My concern is that these advancements will eventually undermine the element of deterrence in the subcontinent, and at some point, somebody will be tempted to press the trigger (I do not trust Indians - advanced weapons in wrong hands is a problem). This would be the day when millions will loose their lives in short order, and a tragedy of even bigger scale will ensue afterwards.

In regards to defeating hypersonic cruise missiles, Glide Breaker prototypes are under development.

Things are heading in the wrong direction now. Pakistan needs to think beyond the lines of hard responses to emerging threats in the region; we should be in the position to pull strings in Washington DC, Moscow, Tel Aviv and Beijing, to our benefit - when necessary. This is possible with economic sustainability in the picture (beggars have no respect), and having a vibrant foreign policy (broader connections). Unfortunately, scores of Pakistani think on the lines of weapons and righteousness only - no sense of strategic depth (psychological inhibitions).

Again, you are misinformed. Today, there is no hypersonic cruise missile in our inventory or in anybody's inventory. Hypersonic necessarily means the use of scramjet.

Secondly, BMDS work against ballistic projectiles with hypersonic velocities. There exists no response today for maneuverable hypersonic threats. Glide Breaker is at best a concept today. You can read more here

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/hyp...-are-and-why-us-cant-defend-against-them.html

 

[LeGenD]

Again, you are misinformed. Today, there is no hypersonic cruise missile in our inventory or in anybody's inventory. Hypersonic necessarily means the use of scramjet.

Secondly, BMDS work against ballistic projectiles with hypersonic velocities. There exists no response today for hypersonic theats. Glide Breaker is at best a concept today. You can read more here

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/hyp...-are-and-why-us-cant-defend-against-them.html

I am not misinformed. And take such journalist pieces with a grain of salt.

Hypersonic label can be assigned to any projectile which exceed MACH 5 speed, in its flight. These can be categorized as follows:-

- Solid-fueled ballistic missiles
- Solid-fueled quasi ballistic missiles
- Hypersonic cruise missiles (nuclear-powered scramjet vehicle)

Glide breaker is under development - not necessary for US to show everything to the public.

 

[CriticalThought]

I am not misinformed. And take such journalist pieces with a grain of salt.

Hypersonic label can be assigned to any projectile which exceed MACH 5 speed in its flight. These can be categorized as follows:-

- Solid-fueled ballistic missile
- Solid-fueled Quasi ballistic missile
- Hypersonic cruise missile (nuclear-powered scramjet vehicle)

Glide breaker is under development - not necessary for US to show everything to the public.

Eh? Nuclear-powered scramjet??? That's not how scarmjets work, actually.

Sure, it is under development. And its specifications are for Mach 5, whereas China recently tested a Mach 10 vehicle.

 

[LeGenD]

Eh? Nuclear-powered scramjet??? That's not how scarmjets work, actually.

Sure, it is under development. And its specifications are for Mach 5, whereas China recently tested a Mach 10 vehicle.

Sorry in that regard - so many terminologies in use to describe different types of weapons, that it can be confusing at times.

Since you mentioned hypersonic cruise missiles in your responses, I assumed prototypes featuring nuclear-powered ramjet propulsion. This type of propulsion ensure extremely long flight ranges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/rossi1/
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...uclear-powered-cruise-missiles-crash-and-burn
http://mragheb.com/NPRE 402 ME 405 ...ng/Nuclear Ramjet and Scramjet Propulsion.pdf
https://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/TD/td1802/waltrup.pdf

Known propulsion systems:-

- Turbofan Jet engine (Supersonic)
- Ramjet* (Supersonic / hypersonic entry-level)
- Scramjet* (hypersonic)

*Can be nuclear-powered.
**Supersonic Combustion Ramjet = Scramjet.

---

It is important to differentiate hypersonic cruise missiles (nuclear-powered Ramjet propulsion) from hypersonic glide vehicles (Scramjet propulsion).

Examples of hypersonic glide vehicles include Avangard (Russian) and DF-ZF (Chinese). The hypersonic glide vehicle require a platform for delivery much like conventional re-entry vehicle; solid-fueled ballistic missile.

Examples of hypersonic cruise missiles include BrahMos-II (Russian) and 3M22 Zircon (Russian).

Another category have emerged; solid-fueled quasi ballistic missiles such as Kh-47M2 Kinzhal (Russian) and CM-401 (Chinese). Since these can be air-launched, some sources mistake these for hypersonic cruise missiles.

FYI: https://theaviationist.com/2018/03/12/russia-test-fires-new-kh-47m2-kinzhal-hypersonic-missile/

Let me know if I am missing something.

---

Glide breaker is supposed to defeat all kinds of hypersonics (Scramjet variety). This program is shrouded in secrecy so you will not find much information on the web.

 

[CriticalThought]

It is important to differentiate hypersonic cruise missiles (nuclear-powered Ramjet propulsion) from hypersonic glide vehicles (Scramjet propulsion).

Actually, the dichotomy is scramjet vs hypersonic glide vehicle. The glide vehicle doesn't have an engine.

If something like Glide Breaker is so super secret, then it will be a long time before India gets its hands on it. And even if it does, the mere collision of two hypersonic bodies will create such a debris cloud, it will be lethal on its own accord. If the incoming missile creates a fuel air or thermobaric mixture, then the counter punch will create even bigger problems. It is a lose-lose proposition when viewed as a fundamental physical problem.