Pakistan F-7PG the little plane that could

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

F-7 PG , deceptive plane that is actually larger then what it looks, armed with AIM-9 Air to air plane is first in line to welcome any visitors, the jet is still used in numbers in Chinese Air-force.
Similarly the plane is serving protection of Pakistan's airspace

The role the planes played , can only be understood when you read about history during the 90's and where was Pakistan Air-force during that time.

The Economy was hurting & Pakistan had just been facing international embargo for F16 parts , and obviously the mirage planes were also requiring upgrades

PEACE GATE 4 & Embargo
F-16 Air Forces - Pakistan

Surprisingly large as other planes

Arrived in Pakistan Air-force in 1988 , approximately the same time Pakistan's F16 were embargoed
The arrival was slowly followed up with Pakistan's air-force putting its special touch on the plane

The plane went under 136 Improvements for security and safety. As discussed in the Youtube video the hard points were increased to 5 capable of carrying any combination of weapons.

The plane allowed Pakistan's Software Engineers to help develop head up display , to modernize the plane

Obviously the plane attained more fans when it participated closely with the F22P Planes from USA in joint training

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,200 km/h (1,189 knots, 1,375 mph)) IAS
• Stall speed: 210 km/h (114 knots, 131 mph) IAS
• Combat radius: 850 km (459 nmi, 528 mi) (air superiority, two AAMs and three drop tanks)
• Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,187 nmi, 1,367 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft)
• Rate of climb: 195 m/s (38,386 ft/min)

Armament

• Guns: 2× 30 mm Type 30-1 cannon, 60 rounds per gun
• Hardpoints: 5 in total - 4× under-wing, 1× centreline under-fuselage with a capacity of 2,000 kg maximum (up to 500 kg each)
• Rockets: 55 mm rocket pod (12 rounds), 90 mm rocket pod (7 rounds)
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles: PL-2, PL-5, PL-7, PL-8, PL-9, K-13, Magic R.550,
  • AIM-9
• 
  
  
• 
  
• Bombs: 50 kg to 500 kg unguided bombs

Avionics

FIAR Grifo-7 mk.II rada

The Engineering benefits Pakistan gained by cooperation on the F7 Plane paved way to the JF17 thunder a future for Pakistan's airforce

Let us not forget the baby is loaded with AIM 9 (4 MISSILES)

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Empowering women in Pakistan

 

[TOPGUN]

I always liked the F-7PG thanks for sharing

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I was actually quite shocked to see how big it was when it was next to F16 or Thunder exact same dimensions.

Considering we only got the planes in 90's and we literally make 100% of the plane don't see why it cannot get a small upgrade (Considering we have 150+ of these planes)

The plane can certainly be improved further

a) 5 Hard points can be enhanced, with 4 points to carry duel missile rack (6-8 missiles)

b) The central point carry a recon pod (This is such a simple upgrade) and you could display
the output to a color display inside cockpit (External unit add on)

Example of duel missile rack

I think the HUDs for the plane was the hard part which Pakistan already constructed locally

The Radar , is the big ticket that has to be upgraded for newer missiles but considering China these days make any size radar possible don't see why we cannot develop a radar for this Jet

d) PAF could just give a contract to Chinese company to develop a smaller size radar for F7
and it would enable 1-2 BVR missile usage

e) I don't see why it would be hard for Engineers to remove old Analog units and put a new refurbished dash board 2 Digital panned , 1 for flight controls , and 1 for Mission operations

 

[That Guy]

It's a safety hazard for PAF pilots and must be completely replaced.

 

[Inception-06]

I always liked the F-7PG thanks for sharing

Which tactic is teached to our young F-7PG and F-7P Pilots when they have to face a indian Mig-29,SU-30MKI or Rafele. I mean do they have any chance, might be a stupid question, but I am not an expert in air to air combat, thats the reason why I am asking ? Or other question what is the most deadliest weapons which the F-7P and F-7PG can carry to fight a SU-30MKI ? 20-35 Km is the operational range of the PL-9 and AIM-9 that could give the J-7 series a chance, I think so.

Besides that, I love the F-7PG, its just amazing how Pilots like Kaiser T. could influence their expirience from the F-16 in to the F-7PG programm.....

 

[thrilainmanila]

i remember when PAF got the F-7PGs in 2001/2002 apparently they made a bit of difference, the F-7PGs were supposedly good dog fighters and they were nick named mini f-16s. if only the SD-10 was around at the time they could have wired them to the PGs and been a bit more potent. right now the more of a trainer type fighter jet they have no place in modern warfare.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well , the plane is very capable "Interceptor"

The missile options were limited since it's radar at that time 20 years ago was not available for its size , however 20 years later technology has advanced, we have size of radars reducing by year , and also more and more digital systems are appearing which make "Panel" very simple


What really defines a plane ?

• Avionics / Missiles carried / Counter measure / Communication

The challenge is really up to KAMRA to figure it out

a) How to integrate more missiles (Missile Rack integration) easy stuff (Via China)
b) How to upgrade the Avionics suite on F-7PG (Analog to Digital Display units), reuse lessons learned from Thunder Digital units new Panel board. (Not that hard) if you have already designed one for JF17 thunder
c) Outsource the Radar (New Advance Radar with Chinese company) - this will open doors to other Long range Missile
d) Recon POD (Easy stuff), EW suit , again could be a POD attached on the spine of plane
e) Introduction of Helmet Targeting

For may be 20% cost of purchase of 40-60 planes

It is sorta hard to believe that we cannot convert a Analog plane panels into 100% Digital
and also do some in home R&D in avionics

Pakistani companies make Touch screen panels for all sort of applications world wide it is really not that hard to develop a Digitized touch screen panel

The targeting system / HUDs systems our engineers made is way more difficult vs conversion of the hardware parts from analog to digital


We have all this Clutter in the F-7PG cock pit Analog device these all can be removed by a sleek redesign

Can be replaced withe a Digital Display System all your controls are digitized and your fire & forget controls are all in your main display

Such a project is needed by Pakistan Air-force so the lessons learned can be used in other plane platforms we have

Plane needs 4 things
a) Radar Output
b) Feedback from the Recon pod
c) View to see your weapons system (Pick weapon & then pick the target you want taken out)
d) Digital display of your certain analog data (can be displayed in your helmet)


If we upgrade the Avionics Suit (Custom Made in Pakistan) and get a small radar created via China's collaboration , we can give a massive technological boost to the F-7 platform


The F7 platform just needs a new radar modern standard & new digital command center

Such project should be taken with ambition of learning knowledge , we already have a functional plane , convert the Analog controls to Digital controls (Software/Hardware Engineers) can figure out all the pieces they just need a R&D grant .

Pakistan did stated they formed a Avionics company what better way to produce Avionics that gets an immediate 100-150 plane customers

Build next generation stuff locally
No reason why such displays cannot me made in Pakistan

 

[Skull and Bones]

I believe most of the F-7s in Pakistani arsenal has been made after 90s, hence the air frame has considerable life left. Is there any thought of any mid life upgrade program?

 

[The Sandman]

Oh i love this plane in fact it's my most fav modern jet after SU 35 will definitely read this at a later time

 

[ziaulislam]

I believe most of the F-7s in Pakistani arsenal has been made after 90s, hence the air frame has considerable life left. Is there any thought of any mid life upgrade program?

only PGs are post 90 yet the life span of 20-30 years is up and except for the PG rest are now passing their life span

we have 40 odd f-7 PGs that were acquired in 1998 and intend to be here till 2025-2030

 

[Viper0011.]

I was actually quite shocked to see how big it was when it was next to F16 or Thunder exact same dimensions.

Considering we only got the planes in 90's and we literally make 100% of the plane don't see why it cannot get a small upgrade (Considering we have 150+ of these planes)

The plane can certainly be improved further

a) 5 Hard points can be enhanced, with 4 points to carry duel missile rack (6-8 missiles)

b) The central point carry a recon pod (This is such a simple upgrade) and you could display
the output to a color display inside cockpit (External unit add on)

I think the HUDs for the plane was the hard part which Pakistan already constructed locally

The Radar , is the big ticket that has to be upgraded for newer missiles but considering China these days make any size radar possible don't see why we cannot develop a radar for this Jet

d) PAF could just give a contract to Chinese company to develop a smaller size radar for F7
and it would enable 1-2 BVR missile usage

e) I don't see why it would be hard for Engineers to remove old Analog units and put a new refurbished dash board 2 Digital panned , 1 for flight controls , and 1 for Mission operations

Dude, why do you want to upgrade a 60 year old design and a plane that has been in service for like 40 years? This is a great point defense fighter of "its time". Not today. This jet has legacy in the PAF so I can understand the emotions behind it (I've seen them all with my boys who flew the Tomcat and when the time came to send it to the junk yards in Arizona and VA).

But spending $ 6-10 million in upgrades that you suggested, is a waste of money. You'll get over 100 times more capability and performance by getting more JFT's, your very own and only like $ 15 million more than the upgrades to the F-7. So I don't understand what's the logic behind suggesting upgrades, when you can get a 4th gen, multi-role platform and a brand new air-frame for little twice the price of upgrades...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The JF17 Thunder stream is independent, there will be engineers dedicated to Thunder platform and that is going great, we make 14-18 planes a year and that is ok for moderate gain

The F-7PG stream is more for the Avionics Department I think give them something real to upgrade, the avionics designers should not be sitting on their arses , they need to be "designing stuff", it is a idea to move the minds who are not doing much make them think and work on something CREATIVE

It is just the technology of the plane that ages if you upgrade your plane to be one that is current with modern trends you will give the pilot a decent chance

i.e Comparative Radar
i.e Ample Missile Selection & Quantity
i.e EW suite
i.e Ample Ammo Supply

Some level of Upgrading does extends the life

In this age and time I don't see Pakistan signing up a Order for 200-300 Jets

We however control Human Resources and we have good relations with China

• We can improve Radar
  
• We can improve the Digitization of Cockpit
• We can certainly add new Missiles
• We can yes add more number of Missiles

How much more efficient it will make the F-7PG platform ?
Well we might not need to replace 300 jets we might just need to update may be 75 jets

That is realistic I can see Pakistan buying only 75 Brand new planes instead of need for 300 new planes

So that is why I feel a MLU like upgrade on F7 would be reasonable but it has to be done by Pakistan's Aviation Department & Radar has to be picked up from China (New Generation Radar)


If F16 can have a block A / B/ C / D / E / V

So why can't the F-7PG evolve with a Digital Cockpit & Better Command and control and Modern EW suit , and a Modern Standard Radar

F-7 (Next Generation)

CHINA is working on 10-20 planes in secret ... so why we can't do Thunder project and also do a major rework of F-7 Project Modernization

 

[Indika]

Doesnt that look like MiG-21? albeit with better electronic systems.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Unless the AIR force has plan to buy 300 Next generation planes , in next few years they really need to have a plan to upgrade F-7PG

Unless (Sukhoi 35, F22 , F35 , F15SE etc) is on table by all means buy in quantity not 3-4 units

Otherwise , Arm the F-7 PG with latest gadgets

Don't see the harm ?

• Usage of BVR , with new radar
• Digital Cockpit = better awareness by pilots
  
• Better tactics and cooperation with other pilots
  
• Great number of missiles carried = more chances to engage enemy planes

• Aim for 6 AIR TO AIR (2 duel racks, 2 Single units each side of wing)
  
• 2 SD 10 (Center hard point As BVR welcome comittee)

If it is suppose to be an INTERCEPTOR , arm it to teeth​

• Better Recon (Recon pod)/ EW Suit on the spine (Learn lessons from F16)
  
• Better Helmet usage

Put the Engineers/Scientist to good use

Considering the Chinese new variants can all fire Chinese Missiles , such a Upgrade would be ideal modernization effort

The overhaul of 192 planes to reduce numbers to 100 but better Avionics and Missiles would keep the fleet flying

Latest F-7 Specs
1) F-7 BGI has a speed of Mach 2.2
2) 7 Hard-points to carry Air to Air missiles , Laser guided bomb, GPS Guided Bombs, Drop tanks
3) Full glass cockpit.
4) can carry 3000 kg Bomb including Chinese Laser Guided Bombs.
5) F-7 BGI has KLJ-6F radar Fire control Radar with 86 km+ Range which is near BVR or BVR considering what is the silver lining between them and can track 6 and engage 2 enemy aircraft simultaneously.
6) F-7 BGI can carry C-704 Antiship Missiles (Therefore maritime also possible)
7) afterburner: F-7 BGI (82 kN) thrust
8) Missiles procurement are currently unknown for F-7 BGI but they can fire the 70-75 km range PL-12,PL-11 and also PL-2, PL-5, PL-7, PL-8, PL-9, Magic R.550 and AIM-9 .
9) F-7 BGI got J-7G2 Airframe with double delta wing. This improves the lift at high angles of attack and delays or prevents stalling.
10) G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
11) Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft) for F-7 BGI
12) 3 Multi functional HUD displays and Hotas.
13) Chinese Helmet Mounted Sights.

If we can modernize the 192 F-7, it can take the pressure of the JF17 thunder which is maturing to reach Block 3 but it as to get its time to flourish

a) New radar
b) Avionics
c) More missiles
d) Recon POD