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Pakistan defence forum- Annual meeting 2019-20

there is the second part as well


@Slav Defence linked with my 4th suggestion is that while rest of the world (few countries may be) is shoving its propaganda down our throats through this board and others, while on the other hand people like @Mangus Ortus Novem , @Dubious , @graphican , @ghazi52 , undersigned and a lot of others are fighting to project a positive image of Pakistan and get out of the negativity that we have been spoon fed for decades, why not start an initiative to highlight positive things about Pakistan and debunking negativity being spread about Pakistan at-least on this forum.

There are just too many threads being opened about cases of rape in India, the purpose from what I understand is to ridicule them, however, in reality with a population base of 1 billion plus these events do occur, and their media is even worse than ours, we have our share of demons; but truly highlighting these type cases by us is insensitive there are many female members of the board and many people are sensitive to these news particularly those who have daughters. Indians have been doing it against Pakistan but the key question is do we want to stoop to their level? I suggest there should be check on opening threads (may be a moderation requirement if there is a keyword "rape")
This is the biggest problem or challenge we are facing right now. But before addressing this, I want to ask you that how is our attitude towards Pakistan? Prime example is an interview DAWN news director had with Steve of hardtalk and the way he was projecting negative image of Pakistan by continuously propagating that journalists and freedom of expression is suppressed in Pakistan. Forget him, let us talk about former president of Pakistan Mr. 10 percent who cried and ask for justice to the world during his first speech.
These lunatics and likes of him have given more damage to Pakistan forgetting that they are giving free service to some inferiority complexed global counterparts whose income, career, success and powerplay is based upon Islamphobia or Muslim phobia.
Here comes our Pakistani awam as well who in past pays attention to negative news first and positive news least.
Pakistani subject and Pakistani politicians have highly misrepresented Pakistan. Pakistan is heaven in many aspects and people in general are very tolerating, hospitable and so places are good to visit as well as society and science is somewhat thriving but our negative wiring and scoring of brownie points to gain attention and funding from west by some selfish politicans and journalists have literally given more damage to our image than any other country in the west or Asia.
It is time that we change our attitude positively and start being grateful and stop taking our riches and natural resources for granted. For God sake stop looking at West. When you can drive a cab in West, then why are you ashamed to drive a cab in Pakistan?
When you do not throw litter in a western country then why do you do it here?
Stop taking yourselves for granted first, then please downgrade, demote negative and westernphilic journalism and politics. Realize that only you can counter propaganda by acting in upright manner and by showing some sense of dignity.
Last but not least, help your armed forces and government by exposing these anti Pak foreign cells. We have Facebook, Twitter and what not? Instead of self fame, make official accounts individually and upload loads of awesome stuff Pakistan has.Also, please respond kindly to trolls then see how world will start to understand you.
Regards

I have three suggestions.

1) Bangladesh Defense section should be removed and some other country's dedicated defense section like American Defense section should replace it. Because that Bangladesh defense section has hardly any post related to Bangladesh defense. It is just a troll sub section which needs to be removed.

2) Political/Siasat section should be removed. Political discussion shouldn't be allowed in a defense forum.

3) Just like Air warfare, land warfare, naval warfare, military forum; there must be a dedicated space warfare section.
I will not appreciate of removing BDF. Instead, we need to invite Bangladeshi members to BDF. After all the tragic incident, we need to atleast console them and let them speak their heart out. Their generations should know that we share their pain and how Indians took strategic and geopolitical benifit from the situation in past. Past tragedies can bring people close or can increase the distance further.

Regards
 
My vote.
What this forum needs is tolerance, we should not shun our Indian friends or any other nationality, nor should we try to bully or silence the few voices that voice opinions that we may personally find unpalatable. Over the years we have lost some really exceptional posters who's posts were like caustic soda, cutting through the oleaginous nationalistic claptrap on both sides of the divide.

Senior posters and older members should nurture and mentor new members to help them contribute by making quality, researched and balanced posts rather than emotional raging one liners like something out of a Zaid Hamid Video.

- Zero tolerance for vulgarity, verbal abuse, threats of violence, racism or hate speech of any kind, defence.pk is not Stormfront, Breitbart or BRF, please check your hatred at the door.

- Sharing of material which sympathises with terrorist ideology should be immediately reported and strict action taken against members who attempt to use PDF as a platform to propagate such toxic ideology. Not only does it damage the value of the forum and expose younger more impressionable members of the forum to this nonsense, it is also against Anti Terrorism Legislation of Pakistan. NACTA has a list of 73 proscribed terrorist organisations, you can access the list here: https://nacta.gov.pk/proscribed-organizations/
^ The above rule should also apply to sharing material that may be deemed sympathetic to terrorist groups operating outside of Pakistan.

- No sharing of military of photos or military installations, that have not been released in the mainstream media or via official channels, this is to safeguard the holy trinity of security "Physical, Operational and Personal" of our boys and girls in the forces. This also applies to any government document that has protected markings such as "Restricted", "Sensitive", "Official" and "Secret". There is a reason these documents will never be published by DGISPR in his tweets for a reason. PLEASE NOTE: This doesn't mean you can't share photos you have taken at expo's or genuine events where public photography is permitted!

- Rules for the forum should be published and prominently displayed.

- No holy cow's (pardon the pun) all members regardless of time on forum, experience, post count and nationality should respect and adhere to the rules of the forum to maintain decorum.

- A thread should be complied which includes a list of banned news outlets, members should consult said list if in doubt prior to sharing propaganda and fake news. Members should be encouraged to use fact checking resources such as the excellent website managed by the Arthur lakes library https://libguides.mines.edu/fakenews/intro

- Avoiding the OSINT octopus, if you are going to post OSINT information, which is totally fine, always attribute the source.
 
@ghazi52 is one of the best members.





Why not a common sub-forum for South Asian space programs ?? There was the SAARC satellite project in which sadly Pakistan could not participate. But so what ?? PDF can provide an extra place where a Indo-Pak and even BD space programs can be discussed. Knowledgeable members like @KapitaanAli, @ps3linux and @fitpOsitive can contribute.

@Slav Defence

No bloody way. Just a subforum of Pakistan's Space Program is needed otherwise it'll be drowned under Indian space program if Indians are allowed.

Maybe next century.
 
there is the second part as well


@Slav Defence linked with my 4th suggestion is that while rest of the world (few countries may be) is shoving its propaganda down our throats through this board and others, while on the other hand people like @Mangus Ortus Novem , @Dubious , @graphican , @ghazi52 , undersigned and a lot of others are fighting to project a positive image of Pakistan and get out of the negativity that we have been spoon fed for decades, why not start an initiative to highlight positive things about Pakistan and debunking negativity being spread about Pakistan at-least on this forum.

There are just too many threads being opened about cases of rape in India, the purpose from what I understand is to ridicule them, however, in reality with a population base of 1 billion plus these events do occur, and their media is even worse than ours, we have our share of demons; but truly highlighting these type cases by us is insensitive there are many female members of the board and many people are sensitive to these news particularly those who have daughters. Indians have been doing it against Pakistan but the key question is do we want to stoop to their level? I suggest there should be check on opening threads (may be a moderation requirement if there is a keyword "rape")

Its a very good suggestion. Sometime ill-intended posters and at other times ill-educated people want to discuss issues which Islam forbids to discuss in public. By controlling kinds of topics which can be posted about/against Pakistan, we will be following The Book and saving ourselves from unnecessary self-damaging.
 
No bloody way. Just a subforum of Pakistan's Space Program is needed otherwise it'll be drowned under Indian space program if Indians are allowed.

Maybe next century.

It was a Pakistani member, @fitpOsitive, who suggested that instead of a South Asia space sub-forum there should be a World Space Corner. I agreed with him. Please read this post of mine.

I think nothing stops Pakistani space achievements or programs from becoming prominent in such a sub-forum.
 
This is the biggest problem or challenge we are facing right now. But before addressing this, I want to ask you that how is our attitude towards Pakistan? Prime example is an interview DAWN news director had with Steve of hardtalk and the way he was projecting negative image of Pakistan by continuously propagating that journalists and freedom of expression is suppressed in Pakistan. Forget him, let us talk about former president of Pakistan Mr. 10 percent who cried and ask for justice to the world during his first speech.
These lunatics and likes of him have given more damage to Pakistan forgetting that they are giving free service to some inferiority complexed global counterparts whose income, career, success and powerplay is based upon Islamphobia or Muslim phobia.
Here comes our Pakistani awam as well who in past pays attention to negative news first and positive news least.
Pakistani subject and Pakistani politicians have highly misrepresented Pakistan. Pakistan is heaven in many aspects and people in general are very tolerating, hospitable and so places are good to visit as well as society and science is somewhat thriving but our negative wiring and scoring of brownie points to gain attention and funding from west by some selfish politicans and journalists have literally given more damage to our image than any other country in the west or Asia.
Regards

Depends on whom you ask, @Mangus Ortus Novem , undersigned and few other have already theorized we all have our share of historic proofs that this negativity which is being shoved down our throats is nothing new, my family archives prove that the effort to undermine/belittle local culture and everything else "desi" started somewhere in 1760, when the "East India Company" and its local pimps started a campaign (propaganda) against everything desi, India of that time and Indo pak of today do have this "complexion" complex and that is how it started.

Ever since the creation of Pakistan and even before that the two nation theory was always questioned by guess who the mullahs who were against the very creation of Pakistan, once Pakistan was created and our Great Founder passed away, a new debate started in tandem Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic State or Pakistan is supposed to be a liberal democracy, guess again by whom the mullahs. reason being once Pakistan was created the mullah in the new state had no stake/respect in Pakistan because most of the people understood that they are people who were against the creation of Pakistan, so in order to get back in the game this controversy was created. Is you ask me there is no difference between and Islamic State or and Islamic liberal state where minorities are given equal rights as any Muslim its just a propaganda nothing else. There is no fundamental and there is no liberal Islam, there is only one Islam and it is the most modern, liberal and moderate religion which is closest to nature. Start of Private Media Channels particularly the "Jew/Geo" and "the Dawn" gave opportunity to propagate negativity about Pakistan and Pakistanis bought it like hot cakes, the story goes on and on.

The anti Pakistan forces realized that Armed forces are so deeply interwoven in Pakistani society that it is impossible to separate both, so a serious effort was commissioned to separate both Zia, Beg and Musharraf in a way supported these anti Pakistan forces, albeit inadvertently, and they found their best bet in Iftikhar Chaudhry, his movement was not independence of judiciary rather acknowledgement of authority for a child of a rank and file policeman and anti-Pakistan.

Despite coming from a fauji family, not just one generation but for many millennia my family has been engineers and fighters, I have serious reservations about some matters of Armed forces my class fellows and batch mate are at flag ranks one star though, but whatever the reasons are I will never become a tool of the west; thus support for Armed forces is there.

My theory is that the whole universe is about balance, whenever there is an imbalance nature counters it by creating a counter measure, I have tried to analyse the same in one of my threads "the 9 unknown by Talbot Mundy" Not everyone can rise above other, not everyone can swim against the tide, it is always a few. I have already named a few who have decided to swim against the current,PDF can too afford to swim against the current, and thus the reasons for my suggestions.

I've traveled across the globe and Pakistan without any doubt is a jewel and one of the greatest gift Allah has bestowed upon any nation in known human history. I don't care what average Pakistani thinks, what the media outlets are harping, all I know is or want to do is to think positive and show a positive image of Pakistan.

When you do not throw litter in a western country then why do you do it here?
Stop taking yourselves for granted first, then please downgrade, demote negative and westernphilic journalism and politics. Realize that only you can counter propaganda by acting in upright manner and by showing some sense of dignity.

Charity begins at home, I can't do much about rest of the country but we as parents have raised our boys that they were not only provided education but "Tarbeeyat" as well, our nephews and nieces and my professional teams. Perhaps once we start addressing things at our own end, things will change. I remember going to Ayub National Park in Pindi along my better half and kids few years back, and found one apparently educated family whose children were throwing empty shoppers and packets in an otherwise pristine park, without saying a word my better half and I went picked up the litter and threw them in the waste bin. This had an impact on the other family who came to us excused for their children's behavior and their own inability to teach their children. BTW both families are now good friends. So I guess there is time to teach and there is time to lead by setting an example without making a fuss.

Honestly, with the exception of Sister Elaine and one other teacher I don't remember any one in my educational life who tried to provide "tarbeeyat" to me, we as a nation are not providing the same to our new generation and every one tries to get away with well this should be the responsibility of the family. Schools don't give it, colleges don't, nor did I get it in officers academy rather I was trained that without the approval of JAG I cannot be arrested for legal infarction there was a code of conduct written and expected but it fell short, mullahs don't give it they rather challenge the law by claiming "man made law" vs "shariah law". It was when I went abroad that I learned that "tarbeeyat" is the collective responsibility of the family/the society and the state and the first steps are rule of law/ and educational awareness.

Frankly barring Quaid none of the rulers gave any reason or "tarbeeyat" to the nation to feel proud of its heritage, we are still in ambiguity whether our roots are from India/central Asia/Afghanistan/Iran/Turkey or Arabs, during my almost two decades of foreign stay I met very few Pakistanis who were proud of being Pakistanis, I met many who had changed their names jut to appear indian all this had three factors lack of leadership/lack of "tarbeeyat" and propaganda by the usual internal/external's.

Thus proposed to counter external/internal propaganda machine.

I will not appreciate of removing BDF. Instead, we need to invite Bangladeshi members to BDF. After all the tragic incident, we need to atleast console them and let them speak their heart out. Their generations should know that we share their pain and how Indians took strategic and geopolitical benifit from the situation in past. Past tragedies can bring people close or can increase the distance further.

Regards

Having some POWs in the family from fall of dhaka an extensive research on the topic, let us agree to disagree on this point, they are no victims, we don't need to console them, it was always marriage of inconvenience. We as a nation are too apologetic even when it is not our fault. When foundations of Bengal Provincial Muslim League was laid having bangla as its language with the underlying message that All India Muslim League is primarily urdu speaking and does not represent "Bengal" that is when the foundations of separate identities from "Punjabis" was laid. The only thing we have in common is the religion.

Besides they are among two nations which are using this forum as propaganda platform to further their respective hegemonic Govt.

I had time today at hand so this lengthy post.

Pakistan has only one true friend, Pakistan, and Pakistanis have only one identity Pakistan.
 
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It was a Pakistani member, @fitpOsitive, who suggested that instead of a South Asia space sub-forum there should be a World Space Corner. I agreed with him. Please read this post of mine.

I think nothing stops Pakistani space achievements or programs from becoming prominent in such a sub-forum.
Yup, pak space prog is neglected at the movement so better keep the scope of discussion wide. That's why I suggested that.
 
It was a Pakistani member, @fitpOsitive, who suggested that instead of a South Asia space sub-forum there should be a World Space Corner. I agreed with him. Please read this post of mine.

I think nothing stops Pakistani space achievements or programs from becoming prominent in such a sub-forum.

Not interested brother.

People can post their space news in the technology section if they like. There's daily space news articles published by www.spacedaily.com and www.space.com for that matter.

I would like one specifically dedicated to Pakistan's Space Program so it becomes prominent like the JF-17 Thunder program which is today considered "Pride of Pakistan". Also, over the next few years, space is another domain Pakistan will be focussing on.
 
4656163-two-people-meeting-i-am-delighted-clipart-clip-art-library-two-people-meeting-i-am-delighted-png-1567_1225_preview.png

All members are invited to drop their suggestions in few lines:
1) What new feature they want to see?
2) What challenges are we facing?
3) Any suggestions for new members!?

Note:
Do not make this thread a troll fest or anti xyz campaign.Doing so will cause your credibility to be zilch. If you have complain against any member, mod or think tank then please consult GHQ.

Regards

Respected Vice Chair,
I will start off with an apology for being able to attend the PDF Annual Meeting on the very last day due to scheduling conflicts.
As 2020 beckons, PDF would be advised to concentrate on the following Agenda items as mirror policy of Government of Pakistan.
1) Initiative: Digital Pakistan
It is important for PDF as one of the early bird digital forums on Pakistan to continue the legacy as we enter a new decade of opportunities and growth. Government of Pakistan’s recent launch of Digital Pakistan allows unprecedented opportunities in this regard.
Task forces should be assigned the underlined tasks for Digital Pakistan.
a) Understanding the Responsibility of Internet
b) Data Privacy and Security
c) Connectivity
I would like to urge the forum to scout of eager members of the forum for their participation.
2) Initiative: Green Pakistan
Green Pakistan initiative is one of the noblest efforts of the government of Pakistan which has highlighted the phenomenon of Climate Change as the most pivotal factor of human existence and its sustainability in the 21st century.
Task forces should be assigned the underlined tasks for Green Pakistan.
a) Impact of small (green home efforts) greener changes on the bigger canvas (municipal, schools, universities, playgrounds).
b) Awareness articles on climate change and her far reaching consequences on human existence.
c) Name and Shame media portrayal of entities not adhering to conserving the climate.
Forum members are urged to provide their energies to save the planet.
3) Initiative: Shangri La
Shangri La initiative can be understood by understanding Government of Pakistan’s policy to showcase the wonder of Pakistan to tourist both economic and religious alike. Although the forum has spent considerable amount of energy on the initiative already, there seems to be a need for a more concentrated streamlined effort.
Lastly on a personal note I would like PDF to launch a YouTube channel to compliment the above mentioned Action Lists and Agendas.

Thank you.
 
Depends on whom you ask, @Mangus Ortus Novem , undersigned and few other have already theorized we all have our share of historic proofs that this negativity which is being shoved down our throats is nothing new, my family archives prove that the effort to undermine/belittle local culture and everything else "desi" started somewhere in 1760, when the "East India Company" and its local pimps started a campaign (propaganda) against everything desi, India of that time and Indo pak of today do have this "complexion" complex and that is how it started.

Ever since the creation of Pakistan and even before that the two nation theory was always questioned by guess who the mullahs who were against the very creation of Pakistan, once Pakistan was created and our Great Founder passed away, a new debate started in tandem Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic State or Pakistan is supposed to be a liberal democracy, guess again by whom the mullahs. reason being once Pakistan was created the mullah in the new state had no stake/respect in Pakistan because most of the people understood that they are people who were against the creation of Pakistan, so in order to get back in the game this controversy was created. Is you ask me there is no difference between and Islamic State or and Islamic liberal state where minorities are given equal rights as any Muslim its just a propaganda nothing else. There is no fundamental and there is no liberal Islam, there is only one Islam and it is the most modern, liberal and moderate religion which is closest to nature. Start of Private Media Channels particularly the "Jew/Geo" and "the Dawn" gave opportunity to propagate negativity about Pakistan and Pakistanis bought it like hot cakes, the story goes on and on.

The anti Pakistan forces realized that Armed forces are so deeply interwoven in Pakistani society that it is impossible to separate both, so a serious effort was commissioned to separate both Zia, Beg and Musharraf in a way supported these anti Pakistan forces, albeit inadvertently, and they found their best bet in Iftikhar Chaudhry, his movement was not independence of judiciary rather acknowledgement of authority for a child of a rank and file policeman and anti-Pakistan.

Despite coming from a fauji family, not just one generation but for many millennia my family has been engineers and fighters, I have serious reservations about some matters of Armed forces my class fellows and batch mate are at flag ranks one star though, but whatever the reasons are I will never become a tool of the west; thus support for Armed forces is there.

My theory is that the whole universe is about balance, whenever there is an imbalance nature counters it by creating a counter measure, I have tried to analyse the same in one of my threads "the 9 unknown by Talbot Mundy" Not everyone can rise above other, not everyone can swim against the tide, it is always a few. I have already named a few who have decided to swim against the current,PDF can too afford to swim against the current, and thus the reasons for my suggestions.

I've traveled across the globe and Pakistan without any doubt is a jewel and one of the greatest gift Allah has bestowed upon any nation in known human history. I don't care what average Pakistani thinks, what the media outlets are harping, all I know is or want to do is to think positive and show a positive image of Pakistan.



Charity begins at home, I can't do much about rest of the country but we as parents have raised our boys that they were not only provided education but "Tarbeeyat" as well, our nephews and nieces and my professional teams. Perhaps once we start addressing things at our own end, things will change. I remember going to Ayub National Park in Pindi along my better half and kids few years back, and found one apparently educated family whose children were throwing empty shoppers and packets in an otherwise pristine park, without saying a word my better half and I went picked up the litter and threw them in the waste bin. This had an impact on the other family who came to us excused for their children's behavior and their own inability to teach their children. BTW both families are now good friends. So I guess there is time to teach and there is time to lead by setting an example without making a fuss.

Honestly, with the exception of Sister Elaine and one other teacher I don't remember any one in my educational life who tried to provide "tarbeeyat" to me, we as a nation are not providing the same to our new generation and every one tries to get away with well this should be the responsibility of the family. Schools don't give it, colleges don't, nor did I get it in officers academy rather I was trained that without the approval of JAG I cannot be arrested for legal infarction there was a code of conduct written and expected but it fell short, mullahs don't give it they rather challenge the law by claiming "man made law" vs "shariah law". It was when I went abroad that I learned that "tarbeeyat" is the collective responsibility of the family/the society and the state and the first steps are rule of law/ and educational awareness.

Frankly barring Quaid none of the rulers gave any reason or "tarbeeyat" to the nation to feel proud of its heritage, we are still in ambiguity whether our roots are from India/central Asia/Afghanistan/Iran/Turkey or Arabs, during my almost two decades of foreign stay I met very few Pakistanis who were proud of being Pakistanis, I met many who had changed their names jut to appear indian all this had three factors lack of leadership/lack of "tarbeeyat" and propaganda by the usual internal/external's.

Thus proposed to counter external/internal propaganda machine.



Having some POWs in the family from fall of dhaka an extensive research on the topic, let us agree to disagree on this point, they are no victims, we don't need to console them, it was always marriage of inconvenience. We as a nation are too apologetic even when it is not our fault. When foundations of Bengal Provincial Muslim League was laid having bangla as its language with the underlying message that All India Muslim League is primarily urdu speaking and does not represent "Bengal" that is when the foundations of separate identities from "Punjabis" was laid. The only thing we have in common is the religion.

Besides they are among two nations which are using this forum as propaganda platform to further their respective hegemonic Govt.

I had time today at hand so this lengthy post.

Pakistan has only one true friend, Pakistan, and Pakistanis have only one identity Pakistan.
I am quite happy to read a high quality post after a long time.The points you mentioned are true. The problem is that Pakistani people do not understand what power they have and I am happy that our armed forces and senior powerplayers understand this very well. The day either Pakistani nation understand their power, they will never be manipulated by jiyalas or waderas or selfish professionals. However, there are types of mindsets can I see:
(1) Educated, without faith, without values
(2) With faith, without education, without values
(3) With values, without faith, without education
(4)Without faith, without education, without values
(5) With faith, education and values
Now all of us know that who falls on which category, judging their character or morale as well as observing their attitude towards people. The problem is that we need to increase our population on 5th category and this can be only possible if schools provide proper education about their voting rights and basics of government systems in secondries, colleges and universities where as deny political influence in their respective sectors so that our students and children do not hold any personal alliance during their teenage to early adulthood. Our government should on the other hand allow only those politicians who have clear record. I do not understand why GOP allows same political parties to participate who have history of corruption and are charged with heinous crimes against their own people. You may get angry if I say that democracy is not meant for a country like Pakistan where literacy rate is low, where people sell their votes for Rs. 500, where PPP recruits their voters from interior Sindh.A country where people only vote because their university allowed politicians to influence them and falsely inspire them or because they saw their dada dadi casting their vote or where kheema naan works. Unless, our educational and government sectors do not become neutral and set up strong filters, Pak will continue to elect false people as false people will continue to pave ways through corruption and this cycle will hence never break.
A country like Pakistan only deserves "Council System" which relies upon SCP (Selection Comission of Pakistan) rather than ECP. I suggested this 6 years ago and I still persist the same. SCP contains high profile professionals of clear repute from both military and civilian background who after reviewing files from petitioners hire or recruit people for ministry hence everyone on same page.Then a matric fail, fake degree holder will never be able to get ministry of science and tech or other system.
(Sounds madness, goose chase or day dream to you but I am serious)
Last but not least, yes we are definitely not responsible for Bengal but we know how some Indians try to morph history and we need to understand this and participate accordingly.
In addition to that faith and values comes from holy guidance. We should not just as a muslims handover our kids to any mullah but teach them Quran with translation.This will invoke them with wisdom, sense of responsibility, fear of Allah and thus makes them a good citizen.
regards
 
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I am quite happy to read a high quality post after a long time.The points you mentioned are true. The problem is that Pakistani people do not understand what power they have and I am happy that our armed forces and senior powerplayers understand this very well. The day either Pakistani nation understand their power, they will never be manipulated by jiyalas or waderas or selfish professionals. However, there are types of mindsets can I see:
(1) Educated, without faith, without values
(2) With faith, without education, without values
(3) With values, without faith, without education
(4)Without faith, without education, without values
(5) With faith, education and values
Now all of us know that who falls on which category, judging their character or morale as well as observing their attitude towards people. The problem is that we need to increase our population on 5th category and this can be only possible if schools provide proper education about their voting rights and basics of government systems in secondries, colleges and universities where as deny political influence in their respective sectors so that our students and children do not hold any personal alliance during their teenage to early adulthood. Our government should on the other hand allow only those politicians who have clear record. I do not understand why GOP allows same political parties to participate who have history of corruption and are charged with heinous crimes against their own people.

Actually the problem has always been mental conditioning, to be honest the general populace of this area has never really been free they have always been under the influence of one dictator or the other (name them anything, king, sardar, numberday, patwari, bd member, mps, mna, thanedar, oh mullah, whatever) so they never have had developed any shard of independent thinking. I know there are writers/columnists who have been propagating anti british narrative by saying 90% population before brits was literate, of course persian and arabic but what was the contribution to science, education nada, nothing except stupid sectariasnism amd measuring the width of "mehboob's qamar" many a times "londay" this illiteracy was up to such tan extent that "aurangzeb alamgir" damn the understanding of the name gives me revulsion, had to get treatment for his daughter by a gora doctor and in return gave place to east india company. In general people of our area have never been independent thinkers, they have always been led to given the comfort some elder/some one higher would do thinking for them and it will be good for them.

While I agree that we should focus on increasing the number 5 category, I 'll sidestep for a moment the distribution of talent in our country is people with highest IQ/talent end up abroad/startup/private sector, after that army and forces, then bureaucracy, then sarkari noukri, then small business, then low level jobs, those who cannot fit any of these categories are either send to madrassah or end up doing menial jobs/work. It is unfortunate that despite the fact there is no concept of a paid mullah in Islam we have given "Theka" of religion to a semi literate to illiterate person who cannot perform simple math is given the helm of religion. Religion which requires greatest understanding and flexibility in thought process, which is not separate from science, it is only where science will ever end up; the boundary of religion starts; thus came the "ignorant fatwa" the advise of prophet PBUH to gain knowledge be it from china, meant religious education/knowledge only. If at all we progress we need to address this loophole instead of pitch of the society ending up at the helm of religion it should be reversed.

In all honesty I always had this question Allah has declared in Quran he has not made anything "Fard" which does not have a benefit for human being so what is the benefit for muslims in "Prayers/namaz" I asked this question many times from many people all I got was "dont't ask too many questions", "because Allah has said so", "because Allah created humans for the purpose", advise to my elder "to control me as I was having kafirana tendencies".

By Allah's grace,circumstances and family affordability I was send to UK for studies. My weekends were spend in "The British library london", spend 8 years there; during the stint and wrote one thesis about Namaz, why it was made "fard" by Allah, what are its social, cultural, political, physical, emotional and spiritual benefits for Muslims as individuals and as society, how individual namaz is linked to Ba-jamaat, to friday prayers, to eid prayers to Hajj send it to few universities got invited multiple times by IIU Islamabad to deliver lecture on it, submitted it to multiple scholars in Pakistan got feedback from only two Late Dr. Israr (being from the same family) and Usmani sb. That was almost two decades ago, point being why do we need to follow mullah, why do we need to follow anyone why we cant make our own evaluation and decisions.

How many times during friday sermon the importance of commitment, honesty, character comes up, how many time the importance of self study of Arabic/Quran and Sunnah comes up?

I am a very difficult person to impress but among all Muslim countries that I have traveled to it was only Turks who impressed me in this area of targeted character building of future generations, as bluntly put by my younger son "our educational system both formal and religious makes you a slave without room for independent thinking"

Development comes through dissatisfaction/lots of questions and the desire to seek the "truth", I cant help the whole system by like I said we have tried to raise our kids, nephews/nieces to become independent thinkers, I have tried to inculcate the same thing in my teams. If/when time comes will spread the message to a wider audience.

I hold parents responsible as well to this lack of creativity in our children. every child has a natural curiosity of all things new, that is Why Adam learned the names of things in Eden while Angels didn't. It is basic human trait, and what parent do in our society is kill that curiosity by giving them a shut up call to all questions, and I have seen apparently highly educated families doing the same.

Still remember our younger one used to be extra curious for everything and dinner used to be his best bet of asking all sorts of questions, initially his mother wanted to control that curiosity but I did put my foot down and made a decision that i will try and answer half of the questions and the other half he will come up, we will discus them and then draw a conclusion. When we came back his curiosity was a major sore point during family dinners elders wanted to give him a shut up call but they had to put up with me, nutshell my nephews nieces too started developing these "rebellious" tendencies like their "baray abbu a.k.a undersigned"

My parents/their parent didn't realize the impact on the children then, almost a decade down the road they now acknowledge the benefits of those dinner time questions have given their children each of them is now knowledgeable to the extent of annoyance, open minded, willing to listen to other person point of view and of course deep study type and not memorizing type.

If we are to go forward as a nation I think parents too need to understand that shutting a child up is like killing his creativity.

Correct me if I am wrong our whole society is centered around "don't ask questions"


You may get angry if I say that democracy is not meant for a country like Pakistan where literacy rate is low, where people sell their votes for Rs. 500, where PPP recruits their voters from interior Sindh.A country where people only vote because their university allowed politicians to influence them and falsely inspire them or because they saw their dada dadi casting their vote or where kheema naan works. Unless, our educational and government sectors do not become neutral and set up strong filters, Pak will continue to elect false people as false people will continue to pave ways through corruption and this cycle will hence never break.
A country like Pakistan only deserves "Council System" which relies upon SCP (Selection Comission of Pakistan) rather than ECP. I suggested this 6 years ago and I still persist the same. SCP contains high profile professionals of clear repute from both military and civilian background who after reviewing files from petitioners hire or recruit people for ministry hence everyone on same page.Then a matric fail, fake degree holder will never be able to get ministry of science and tech or other system.
(Sounds madness, goose chase or day dream to you but I am serious)

Bhai I wont get angry because I have been harping the same idea for years now, an illiterate person/a follower/without a shard of independent thinking who cannot make any decision without "consultation" with someone "wise" is given a choice to select between lesser of the evils. His/her mind cannot even process all the variables let alone make an impartial decision, thus comes Qeemay wala naan/biryani plate voting democracy. Since he cannot make any decision so "teeny weeny" personal gains like qeemay wal naan is the prime motivator in decision making. its not a wild goose chase, my analysis is that democracy has already failed, it is now hegemony of one group or the other, in another 50 years of so this false pretense will end and the world will be back again to kingdoms and a set of appointed advisers with petty little freedom on local level to masses.


Last but not least, yes we are definitely not responsible for Bengal but we know how some Indians try to morph history and we need to understand this and participate accordingly.

In addition to that faith and values comes from holy guidance. We should not just as a muslims handover our kids to any mullah but teach them Quran with translation.This will invoke them with wisdom, sense of responsibility, fear of Allah and thus makes them a good citizen.
regards

Agreement with the second part, however, remember translation is just interpretation of the translator and varies from translator to translator.Though I do curse Zia for many of the evils which our society is facing now, but his one decision of making Arabic compulsory in schools upto 8th did work in my favor. Our teacher was very good in Arabic and it paved the way for understanding Quranic Arabic. Always wondered why all "translators" have used one word for translation of the "malik e youm ad deen", "word deen", why always "Qayamt wala din" there are 5 to 6 others why not them. Simple because they lead to questions and moral improvement of Muslims. Why not Ayah 2.2-2.5 are taught in conjunction with 2.174-2.177 and 2.256 as compulsory with understanding of each word to every Muslim child right from the day he is able to understand. simply because all the myths and mysticism mullah has created goes down the shitters. BTW the best translations of Quran are in English.

Apologies for such a lengthy post, half year closed now I have respite for few days thus enough time at hand for such indulgence.
 
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Actually the problem has always been mental conditioning, to be honest the general populace of this area has never really been free they have always been under the influence of one dictator or the other (name them anything, king, sardar, numberday, patwari, bd member, mps, mna, thanedar, oh mullah, whatever) so they never have had developed any shard of independent thinking. I know there are writers/columnists who have been propagating anti british narrative by saying 90% population before brits was literate, of course persian and arabic but what was the contribution to science, education nada, nothing except stupid sectariasnism amd measuring the width of "mehboob's qamar" many a times "londay" this illiteracy was up to such tan extent that "aurangzeb alamgir" damn the understanding of the name gives me revulsion, had to get treatment for his daughter by a gora doctor and in return gave place to east india company. In general people of our area have never been independent thinkers, they have always been led to given the comfort some elder/some one higher would do thinking for them and it will be good for them.

While I agree that we should focus on increasing the number 5 category, I 'll sidestep for a moment the distribution of talent in our country is people with highest IQ/talent end up abroad/startup/private sector, after that army and forces, then bureaucracy, then sarkari noukri, then small business, then low level jobs, those who cannot fit any of these categories are either send to madrassah or end up doing menial jobs/work. It is unfortunate that despite the fact there is no concept of a paid mullah in Islam we have given "Theka" of religion to a semi literate to illiterate person who cannot perform simple math is given the helm of religion. Religion which requires greatest understanding and flexibility in thought process, which is not separate from science, it is only where science will ever end up; the boundary of religion starts; thus came the "ignorant fatwa" the advise of prophet PBUH to gain knowledge be it from china, meant religious education/knowledge only. If at all we progress we need to address this loophole instead of pitch of the society ending up at the helm of religion it should be reversed.

In all honesty I always had this question Allah has declared in Quran he has not made anything "Fard" which does not have a benefit for human being so what is the benefit for muslims in "Prayers/namaz" I asked this question many times from many people all I got was "dont't ask too many questions", "because Allah has said so", "because Allah created humans for the purpose", advise to my elder "to control me as I was having kafirana tendencies".

By Allah's grace,circumstances and family affordability I was send to UK for studies. My weekends were spend in "The British library london", spend 8 years there; during the stint and wrote one thesis about Namaz, why it was made "fard" by Allah, what are its social, cultural, political, physical, emotional and spiritual benefits for Muslims as individuals and as society, how individual namaz is linked to Ba-jamaat, to friday prayers, to eid prayers to Hajj send it to few universities got invited multiple times by IIU Islamabad to deliver lecture on it, submitted it to multiple scholars in Pakistan got feedback from only two Late Dr. Israr (being from the same family) and Usmani sb. That was almost two decades ago, point being why do we need to follow mullah, why do we need to follow anyone why we cant make our own evaluation and decisions.

How many times during friday sermon the importance of commitment, honesty, character comes up, how many time the importance of self study of Arabic/Quran and Sunnah comes up?

I am a very difficult person to impress but among all Muslim countries that I have traveled to it was only Turks who impressed me in this area of targeted character building of future generations, as bluntly put by my younger son "our educational system both formal and religious makes you a slave without room for independent thinking"

Development comes through dissatisfaction/lots of questions and the desire to seek the "truth", I cant help the whole system by like I said we have tried to raise our kids, nephews/nieces to become independent thinkers, I have tried to inculcate the same thing in my teams. If/when time comes will spread the message to a wider audience.

I hold parents responsible as well to this lack of creativity in our children. every child has a natural curiosity of all things new, that is Why Adam learned the names of things in Eden while Angels didn't. It is basic human trait, and what parent do in our society is kill that curiosity by giving them a shut up call to all questions, and I have seen apparently highly educated families doing the same.

Still remember our younger one used to be extra curious for everything and dinner used to be his best bet of asking all sorts of questions, initially his mother wanted to control that curiosity but I did put my foot down and made a decision that i will try and answer half of the questions and the other half he will come up, we will discus them and then draw a conclusion. When we came back his curiosity was a major sore point during family dinners elders wanted to give him a shut up call but they had to put up with me, nutshell my nephews nieces too started developing these "rebellious" tendencies like their "baray abbu a.k.a undersigned"

My parents/their parent didn't realize the impact on the children then, almost a decade down the road they now acknowledge the benefits of those dinner time questions have given their children each of them is now knowledgeable to the extent of annoyance, open minded, willing to listen to other person point of view and of course deep study type and not memorizing type.

If we are to go forward as a nation I think parents too need to understand that shutting a child up is like killing his creativity.

Correct me if I am wrong our whole society is centered around "don't ask questions"




Bhai I wont get angry because I have been harping the same idea for years now, an illiterate person/a follower/without a shard of independent thinking who cannot make any decision without "consultation" with someone "wise" is given a choice to select between lesser of the evils. His/her mind cannot even process all the variables let alone make an impartial decision, thus comes Qeemay wala naan/biryani plate voting democracy. Since he cannot make any decision so "teeny weeny" personal gains like qeemay wal naan is the prime motivator in decision making. its not a wild goose chase, my analysis is that democracy has already failed, it is now hegemony of one group or the other, in another 50 years of so this false pretense will end and the world will be back again to kingdoms and a set of appointed advisers with petty little freedom on local level to masses.




Agreement with the second part, however, remember translation is just interpretation of the translator and varies from translator to translator.Though I do curse Zia for many of the evils which our society is facing now, but his one decision of making Arabic compulsory in schools upto 8th did work in my favor. Our teacher was very good in Arabic and it paved the way for understanding Quranic Arabic. Always wondered why all "translators" have used one word for translation of the "malik e youm ad deen", "word deen", why always "Qayamt wala din" there are 5 to 6 others why not them. Simple because they lead to questions and moral improvement of Muslims. Why not Ayah 2.2-2.5 are taught in conjunction with 2.174-2.177 and 2.256 as compulsory with understanding of each word to every Muslim child right from the day he is able to understand. simply because all the myths and mysticism mullah has created goes down the shitters. BTW the best translations of Quran are in English.

Apologies for such a lengthy post, half year closed now I have respite for few days thus enough time at hand for such indulgence.
I cannot agree more with you and I don't need to add that as we all understand that freedom to a certain limit is good.However, what should be the degree of limit is something that differs in different backgrounds. We cannot deny variations and we cannot suppress it either; but we need to choose favorable traits in every sense and make sure to atleast work upon increasing favorable homogeneous env. so that we couod harbor such traits successfully and maintain them for long time
Regards
 
@Slav Defence can you create Indonesian Defence Forum? They are lot active in their thread in "China & Far East", discussion keeps going and there's lots of news.
 
Well to enhance productivity/ usefulness of the forum & to enhance quality of discussion we need another "How" section for members continuous brainstorming on important topics.

[emoji830] How to Improve Pakistan Economy?

[emoji830] How to Improve Pakistan Justice System?

[emoji830] How to Improve Pakistan Internal Security?

[emoji830] How to Improve Pakistan ties with rest of the world?

[emoji830] How to Improve Rule of Law & Protect Human Rights across Pakistan?

[emoji830] How to achieve cordial civil military relationship narrative ?

[emoji830] How to Improve Political & Democratic stability?

[emoji830] How to Improve Military strength?

[emoji830] How to Improve Education System of Pakistan?

[emoji830] How to Improve Heath System of Pakistan?

& So on

There are many solution oriented questions those require continuous brainstorming of the intellectuals. We need to shift focus of debate from criticism to solutions based constructive dialogue. A dedicated 'How' Forum can create space for the constructive dialogue & brainstorming.
 
:pop::pop::pop:

BTW,

Yesterday I had this amazing but very muc impossible idea in mind.

Pdf should design some static page, mention all war heroes, list of whatsoever 30k-40k+- martyrs our army had since 1947 just like it is maybe in some museum here on a wall.

It would be amazing !!!

Can you take the lead and start on this?

@Slav Defence
Assalam u Alaikum
As everyone here on this forum has noticed that a person has been creating false ID's and posting filth. So it was suggested that there should mechanism to verify such accounts. Plaese pay attention to that.
You can post on my wall regarding this/these users.

I would really encourage that as we need writers who will be describing the positive image of Pakistan.
As a native or resident of Pakistan, it is our job to tell the world who is blinded by false impression against Pakistan.We need to encourage them that why Pakistan is heaven and why they should visit Pakistan.
We also need to update world regarding our advancement against corruption and invite investors from around the world to capture Pakistani market as well as our access to international market.
We also need to promote our thriving film industry by activity writing feature on our movies, dramas and other entertainment. Best thing about Pakistani film industry is that it is not a mouthpiece against any nation.
So, we are alhamdullilah achieving a lot.Also, in Biomedical engineering, chemical engineering and Genetics our people are really working hard and are recognized for their team work and effort.Active conference and workshops are being conducted by them.
However, we cannot do it alone, we need selfless members who can volunteer with us and understand the worth of internet and choose it as an opportunity to heaven or waste it and regret in akhirah.
Regards
@ghazi52 is doing great work in this regard. Probably member of the year!
 

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