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Pakistan army: Intel on bomb sites was wrong

Pakistan’s army disputed reports that its forces had tipped off insurgents at bomb-making factories.



The Foreign Ministry also lodged a protest with the American embassy over a purported attack on a Pakistani military post the latest signs of strained relations since the US killed Osama bin Laden last month without notifying officials here ahead of time.



The army called the assertions of collusion with militants “totally false and malicious.” American officials had said that they’d shared satellite information with Pakistan about two militant bomb-making factories. Within 24 hours, they said they watched the militants clear out the sites, raising suspicions that the Pakistanis had shared the information.



In a carefully worded, two-paragraph statement Friday, the army never says the US shared intelligence on the sites in question. But it said its attempts to destroy four militant bomb-making factories only partly succeeded because intelligence on two of the sites was wrong.



It also was unclear about the sites’ exact location and does not say when the raids occurred. But it’s likely to further add to tensions between the US and Pakistan, which have been unusually high since the US raid that killed bin Laden.




Various media accounts said the factories were in the Waziristan stretch of Pakistan’s tribal belt, where al-Qaida and Taliban fighters have long proliferated. The intelligence sharing was part of a US attempt to improve the relationship with Pakistan.




Bin Laden’s presence there has only added to US suspicions that elements within Pakistan’s powerful security establishment were playing a “double game” by colluding with some militants while going after others.
 
raising suspicions that the Pakistanis shared the information.

What a gamers, they share 'false bomb sites info' with pakistan and then raise suspicions that Pakistan shared the info. Wow, nice move to cover up OBL drama.

Bhai, when you send drones to kill suspects, then why dont you destroy the bomb sites there using the same drones?
 
The incidence just proves that Pakistan cannot handle operations because the way they operate. Also, proves why it is taking longer to get militancy under control in Pakistan.
I was even surprised to note that the Pakistani Army has to seek permission from the tribals before commencing any operations there!! Are these areas not under the Pakistan government's control?? :what: If they are, then what is the necessity of asking permission to operate in your own country to maintain law and order? :what:
 
LOL @ 'bomb factory'

maybe some mud compounds are being used for stuffing empty ordnance shells with explosives to be wired up with vehicles or to be buried next to the roads with some pressure plate or remote trigger but these mud compounds are far from being 'factories' and most importantly there is no smoke billowing from chimneys or people doing shifts on large spread out geographical areas that these hide outs called 'factories' and can be distinguished from other mud compounds in the area.

This rubbish about America sharing info on 'factories' was just another attempt to malign Pakistan Army and its being rightly countered by the PA.

Death to all enemies of Pakistan!

Long live Pakistan , Long live its Armed forces , the defenders of the motherland.
 
Pakistan army: Intel on bomb sites was wrong




Anyone believes Iraq WMD found in Iraq, now believe US's propaganda version stories.

Ok, but what about OBL.. There were always denial by the PAK top brass.
 
Anyone believes Iraq WMD found in Iraq, now believe US's propaganda version stories.
I thought you were aware of the conspiracy? Bush and his neo-cons knew for sure that there were NO WMDs in Iraq. That was just an excuse to take over the country for OIL!! They needed an excuse and this was it! :azn:
 
What a good thing if someone puts in wrong coordinates for some cruise missiles and they fall on the parliament when all the politicians are present inside it and on the offices of the generals while they are sitting in their offices.
 
I was even surprised to note that the Pakistani Army has to seek permission from the tribals before commencing any operations there!! Are these areas not under the Pakistan government's control?? :what: If they are, then what is the necessity of asking permission to operate in your own country to maintain law and order? :what:
Cooperation with the tribes and respect for their customs is essential if Pakistan does not want to start yet another fight against the tribes for 'violating their customs and honor'.

The tribes agreed to join Pakistan under certain conditions, and those conditions included a continuation of their autonomous status and retention of their customs etc.
 
There is nothing new out of the US reports - they continue to be unsubstantiated 'anonymous sources', while the ISPR has provided an official response and refutation of the unverified propaganda in the US media.

If the US disagrees with the official Pakistani position, then they need to 'officially' provide their own version supported by credible evidence.

As of right now all we have from the US is unverified rumor and gossip.
 
any professional guy can understand that this US statement is a blatant lie and propaganda, its very unprofessional of them to issue such statements, on one hand US considers pakistan to be its ally, and then say pakistan is helping those terrorists, there cant be such contradictory statements, americans are no longer serious abt this war, and are just spreading propaganda, very evident, if US believes pakistan does this than pakistan cannot be in their category of ally, its vey misleading
 
Pakistan has issued an official statement explaining what happened and denying the US claims.

What is the US position, other than a bunch of 'anonymous sourced propaganda' in the media?
 
US officials again accuse Pakistan of tip-off | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

In another blow to Washington’s relationship with Pakistan, US officials say Pakistan failed another test to prove it could be trusted to go after American enemies on its soil by intentionally or inadvertently tipping off militants at two more bomb-building factories in its tribal areas, giving the suspected terrorists time to flee.

According to The New York Times, officials said on Saturday that the two sites’ locations in the tribal areas had been shared with the Pakistani government this past week,. The Americans monitored the area with satellite and unmanned drones to see what would happen.
In each case, within a day or so after sharing the information, they watched the militants depart, taking any weapons or bomb-making materials with them, just as militants had done the first two times.
Only then, did they watch the Pakistani military visit each site, when the terror suspects and their wares were long gone, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss matters of intelligence.

The Americans suspect that either lower-level Pakistani officials are directly tipping the militants off to the imminent raids, or the tips are coming through the local tribal elders that Pakistan insists on informing of the raids. US officials have pushed for Pakistan to keep the location of such targets secret prior to the operations, but the Pakistanis say their troops cannot enter the lawless regions without giving the locals notice.

The latest incidents bring to a total of four bomb-making sites that the US has shared with Pakistan only to have the terrorist suspects flee before the Pakistani military arrive. Both sides are attempting to mend relations and rebuild trust after the US raid on May 2 that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad.

Pakistan’s army on Friday disputed reports that its security forces had tipped off insurgents at bomb-making factories after getting intelligence about the sites from the United States. The army called the assertions of collusion with militants “totally false and malicious.”
Pakistani army officials claimed they had successfully raided two more sites, after finding nothing at the first two, but a Pakistani official reached Friday offered no details of what they found.

That official admitted that in each raid, however, the Pakistani security services notified the local elders who hold sway in the tribal regions. The official said they would investigate US charges that the militants had been tipped off.

Two US officials said they were asking the Pakistanis to withhold such sensitive information from the elders, and even their lower ranks, to carry out their raids in secret, to prove they could be trusted to go after US enemies.

At least two of the sites were run by the Haqqani network.
The intelligence sharing was intended as a precursor to building a new joint intelligence team of CIA officers together with Pakistani intelligence agents. But US officials say Pakistan has failed to quickly approve the visas needed, despite agreeing to form the team in May.
 
Since the first attempt to deal with the question of this trust deficit in response to forum Member Thomas, was deleted by a "moderator" (who also changes the titles of threads per his political opinion - And to all who would still give some thought to the issue of "narratives, we offer the piece below:



Pakistan-US trust deficit
By Niloufer Siddiqui and Joshua T. White | From the Newspaper
Yesterday

BILATERAL relations between Pakistan and the United States are once again at a low ebb. The killing of Osama Bin Laden in a unilateral American operation has raised a number of hard questions about the depth and longevity of the Pakistan-US relationship.

Commentary has once again focused on the so-called ‘trust deficit’ that is widening between the two countries. The term is, in some ways, a useful one. On an emotional register, it serves as a catch-phrase that captures the deep frustrations felt by policymakers, and suggests the ways in which the historical dysfunctionalities of the relationship continue to intervene in present-day policy debates.

Unfortunately, much of the discussion about the trust deficit is vague, undefined and unhelpful. And it tends to obscure a richer set of questions about trust and statecraft: why do countries trust? Whom do they decide to trust? And, perhaps most importantly, what can be done to build trust?

There are a number of important theories in international relations, each contributing assumptions and propositions about how the international system works. But while each of the broad theoretical schools — classical realism, liberal internationalism, neo-realism and constructivism — has something distinctive to say about trust in international politics, the latter two approaches provide perhaps the most salient insights in the context of the Pakistan-US relationship.

Neo-realists generally discount the suggestion that trust can exist in the international system. Arguing that states act in pursuit of their own security interests, these theorists focus on state capabilities rather than intentions, and consider the role of perceptions of military balance and stated doctrines. Neo-realists, for example, might look at Pakistan’s high military expenditures, intensive nuclear development and historical support for asymmetric agents, and see a state that is simply trying to maximise security in light of a perceived threat from a regional hegemon. Similarly, they might deem America’s behaviour in Afghanistan as largely rational, deriving from its perception of Al Qaeda as a systemic danger to its global position.

To the neo-realist, a ‘trust deficit’ is symptomatic of a divergence of strategic interests. In this environment, each country would be best served by choosing to incentivise rational behaviours that are mutually beneficial. A neo-realist might argue that even if Americans consider Pakistan’s strategic behaviour to be at times paranoid, they should still work to assuage Pakistan’s perceived fears by working to reduce the Indian presence in Afghanistan, or continuing to provide dual-use military equipment. Pakistan, meanwhile, could address America’s behaviour by working to deal comprehensively with its top-line security concern of trans-national terrorism, even if it considers the threat to be overblown.

Constructivists operate on an entirely different set of assumptions. Unlike realists, they believe that trust can actually be built and sustained through a history of interactions, and that interests are shaped by the stories that states tell about themselves, and each other. While neo-realism focuses on the overall state system, constructivism recognises a critical feedback loop:

governments can influence public perception, which in turn can drive state policy. Trust must, therefore, be built at every level: state-to-state, public-to-state, public-to-public.

What does this suggest for the Pakistan-US relationship? First, it points to the importance of signalling by leaders. The Kerry-Lugar bill, as it happens, was intended to do precisely this. Its crafters were under no illusion that $1.5bn per year would ‘buy’ leverage. Rather, they hoped that it would help to signal an unwavering commitment to the relationship.

Pakistan’s bestowing of the Hilal-i-Pakistan on Joseph Biden can also be seen as an attempt to promote the narrative of a durable partnership, with hopes that that narrative would give birth to future substantive cooperation.

In a similar vein, the US could broaden its efforts to signal an ongoing commitment to Pakistan as a strategic partner by way of preferential trade agreements, or the proffering of a civilian nuclear deal (which was under serious discussion in US government circles in the weeks before Abbottabad). Pakistan’s leaders, for their part, could take much greater responsibility for dealing with hyperbolic anti-American public sentiment by reining in some of their preferred proxies in the media and coming clean on the issue of the drones, rather than publicly denouncing them while privately approving — even requesting — their use.


Obviously, neo-realism and constructivism can hardly take into account the complex personal and strategic factors that shape, for example, each country’s respective views of Afghanistan, or Lashkar-i-Taiba, or drone strikes. Nevertheless, they provide a welcome reminder that trust is not a general condition of the international system.

Policymakers would be wise to heed the neo-realists’ admonition that, while both countries are liable to tenaciously pursue their own interests as they perceive them, they also have an interest in finding ways to acknowledge and address each other’s perceived security concerns — even if they find them at times unwarranted. Rather than fretting about the emotional tenor of the relationship, both countries would benefit from a more forthright discussion about these perceptions, and a willingness to ‘agree to disagree’ where interests genuinely diverge.

And finally, public statements and perceptions do matter. Constructivist theorists have demonstrated that narratives and norms can eventually shape strategic interests over the long-term, and build trust in the context of practical decision-making.

The United States can learn from this by diligently following through on its promises to build a long-term, multifaceted partnership with Pakistan, one which addresses more than short-run concerns. Pakistan’s leadership, meanwhile, would do well to stop fanning the flames of hyper-nationalism, and publicly acknowledge what it has already admitted in private — that the Pakistan-US relationship is largely one of mutual benefit, and that cooperation redounds to Pakistan’s own interests and goals in the region.


Niloufer Siddiqui is a development consultant in Islamabad. Joshua T. White is a doctoral candidate at The Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.


OK, lets simplify further - why no trust between Pakistan and US? Because they have divergent interests -- OK but why so uncivil? Because this is a an unequal power equation (beware passive aggressives) and because of the nature of the relationship, it cannot be aligned on the constructivist model, sorry Huma, while narratives and what leaders say do matter, in the case of the Pak-US relationship, it's really so much later than we one may have thought --- For US readers, the work of Messrs Y may get some attention in policy making quarters, if only to chuck the piece in the trash can, however, events seem, from my perspective, for the US, to have the quality of a gathering storm -- Pakistan are history, there is little substance in the relationship other than aid money and too bad, but really it's time to move on - for the US to do their version of "Sub kuch Theek hai" and to make haste and for Pakistan to offer assistance in that heroic effort.

Though I do admit that I feel sorry, a sense of pity, for the US public, it is angry and bewildered and I suspect it may experience panic -- and I fear that we may then see even greater recourse to US wars as both bread and circus - a cruel fate for a self engrossed public.
 
On this issue.. I am with ISI and PA! We are doing right.. we got to do everything which will ensure Pakistan's safety and betterment after US is beaten like dogs in Afghanistan.
 
Pakistan has issued an official statement explaining what happened and denying the US claims.

What is the US position, other than a bunch of 'anonymous sourced propaganda' in the media?

It is US's strategy to use their media to see the reaction. First the info is given to the media, if not opposed, then official version follows.
 
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