PAK Army Operations against Muslims!

[Colonel_Hardstone]

All,

I have just introduced myself, can’t post any links but please see Introduction.

I visited Pakistan last year and saw a ground swell of anger in Pakistan against the Army due to operations like “Lal-Masjid” etc. As a youngster growing up in Pakistan the feelings towards the Army were different.

I am a practising Muslim but I have come to the realisation that something isn’t right!

These Mujahedees/Militants (call them what you will) are very well equipped and well trained, far removed from rag-tag Army that some think they are. Moreover I have repeatedly heard the talks of Dr Israr Ahmed (& others) to say that these people in SWAT and not even from SWAT.

I also realise that a soldier merely obeys order and does his job and in that cause may lose his life.

Surely it can’t be good for the Morale of the Army to be ordered to shoot at their own people? Where is the motivation of the soldiers come from?
In my mind I think the Ulama/Mullahs/Scholars (call them what you will) should ASSIST in brokering a ceasefire and STOP people fighting the Pakistan Army and vice-versa? I mean what do they gain by killing Pakistan Army and what does Pakistan Army gain by killing them?

Where do we begin to untangle this mess, no one is winning here!

I see practising Muslims cursing the Army and Secularists blaming Islam, how can they meet halfway?

 

[Spring Onion]

All,

I have just introduced myself, can’t post any links but please see Introduction.

I visited Pakistan last year and saw a ground swell of anger in Pakistan against the Army due to operations like “Lal-Masjid” etc. As a youngster growing up in Pakistan the feelings towards the Army were different.

I am a practising Muslim but I have come to the realisation that something isn’t right!

These Mujahedees/Militants (call them what you will) are very well equipped and well trained, far removed from rag-tag Army that some think they are. Moreover I have repeatedly heard the talks of Dr Israr Ahmed (& others) to say that these people in SWAT and not even from SWAT.

I also realise that a soldier merely obeys order and does his job and in that cause may lose his life.

Surely it can’t be good for the Morale of the Army to be ordered to shoot at their own people? Where is the motivation of the soldiers come from?
In my mind I think the Ulama/Mullahs/Scholars (call them what you will) should ASSIST in brokering a ceasefire and STOP people fighting the Pakistan Army and vice-versa? I mean what do they gain by killing Pakistan Army and what does Pakistan Army gain by killing them?

Where do we begin to untangle this mess, no one is winning here!

I see practising Muslims cursing the Army and Secularists blaming Islam, how can they meet halfway?

well your introduction thread had already clear atleast to me what are your intentions and the headline of this thread further clarified that.

But lets come to your points.

1. LM mullahs were being used by Takfiris of Baituallah Mehsud (a CIA funded man) against State of Pakistan.
2. They had been taking laws in their own hands which under no rule is justified.
If you live in US and you are right to take some action but the law of the land does not allow that will you be let by the Governement of US to do that???

3. There is no bar in going against Muslims in Islam if they are wrong and if they are terrorists.

4. Those who are killing innocent people in Hospitals, who are brainwashing young boys of as younger as 13 years for suicide bombing are no doubt terrorists. Above all they are not Muslism, they are Takfiris.

5. Those who are fighting and flaring things against Pakistan and its army are hardcore terrorists getting millions of dollars from US/CIA, they cant be hearing to the local ulema or religious leaders.
They are slaughtering anyone who oppose them.

6. The most Important thing is Army know very well what is it doing. The problem is that whenever they are near victory near eleminating the schum of the earth, the political sold-out people come up with ceasefire dramas and stop the army.

 

[Colonel_Hardstone]

well your introduction thread had already clear atleast to me what are your intentions and the headline of this thread further clarified that.

But lets come to your points.

1. LM mullahs were being used by Takfiris of Baituallah Mehsud (a CIA funded man) against State of Pakistan.
2. They had been taking laws in their own hands which under no rule is justified.
If you live in US and you are right to take some action but the law of the land does not allow that will you be let by the Governement of US to do that???

3. There is no bar in going against Muslims in Islam if they are wrong and if they are terrorists.

4. Those who are killing innocent people in Hospitals, who are brainwashing young boys of as younger as 13 years for suicide bombing are no doubt terrorists. Above all they are not Muslism, they are Takfiris.

5. Those who are fighting and flaring things against Pakistan and its army are hardcore terrorists getting millions of dollars from US/CIA, they cant be hearing to the local ulema or religious leaders.
They are slaughtering anyone who oppose them.

6. The most Important thing is Army know very well what is it doing. The problem is that whenever they are near victory near eleminating the schum of the earth, the political sold-out people come up with ceasefire dramas and stop the army.

Asslamo Allaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

You have assumed my intentions and misjudged my posts but I appreciate your answer.

 

[Spring Onion]

Asslamo Allaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

You have assumed my intentions and misjudged my posts but I appreciate your answer.

my appology if i did.

But look at your comments above. You are saying what will Army gain by killing terrorists???

You are questioning the LM operation but at the same time you are not coming up with the entire picture forgeting the role of Rashid brothers and their links with terrorists plus their actions which were against the law.

Lt Haroon was martyerd when he was trying to release inncoent studnets which were held hostage by those idiot Rashid brothers for using as human shields.

 

[dr.umer]

These Mujahedees/Militants (call them what you will) are very well equipped and well trained, far removed from rag-tag Army that some think they are. Moreover I have repeatedly heard the talks of Dr Israr Ahmed (& others) to say that these people in SWAT and not even from SWAT.

I also realise that a soldier merely obeys order and does his job and in that cause may lose his life.

There is no doubt that these 'militants' are very well trained due to Afghan invasion. But it should rightly surprize you why they are 'well-equipped'. Anti-Pakistan elements are funding these militants as those elements don't want to let go this 'great' opportunity to destabilize Pakistan.

Surely it can’t be good for the Morale of the Army to be ordered to shoot at their own people? Where is the motivation of the soldiers come from?
In my mind I think the Ulama/Mullahs/Scholars (call them what you will) should ASSIST in brokering a ceasefire and STOP people fighting the Pakistan Army and vice-versa? I mean what do they gain by killing Pakistan Army and what does Pakistan Army gain by killing them?

Where do we begin to untangle this mess, no one is winning here!

I see practising Muslims cursing the Army and Secularists blaming Islam, how can they meet halfway?

I wish if they were our "own people". Own people doesn't mean that only they call themselves Muslims and live within territorial boundary of Pakistan. Own people don't deal with anti-Pakistan elements. Own people don't carry out suicide attacks on security forces and civilians.

One confusion here has always lived and that is who these militants actually are who call themselves 'Taliban'. Unfortunately many of us believe that they are same Taliban as Afghan Taliban. I would like to refer to the recent press report published in Asia Times.

"Jalil's comments did not ring true. Several Taliban commanders, including the slain Mullah Dadullah and Pakistan Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, besides scores of al-Qaeda members, have maintained that the only way to win the Afghan war against NATO is to attack Western targets in Europe and America. I cited some of their statements to Jalil and asked, "Are they lying, or are you?"

"Nobody is lying. There are issues here to understand. First, there were people like Mullah Dadullah [a senior military commander killed by NATO in 2007] . He was emotional and often engaged in rhetoric - many times - different from Taliban policies, so much so that on several occasions he was warned by the Taliban leadership about his statements to the media.

"Second, it is necessary to understand that there is a sea of difference between the people who call themselves the Pakistan Tehrik-i-Taliban [led by Mehsud] and the Taliban. We have nothing to do with them. In fact, we oppose the policies they adhere to against the Pakistani security forces.

"We individually speak to all groups, whether they are Pakistanis, Kashmiris, Arabs, Uzbeks or whosoever, telling them not to create violence in Pakistan, especially in the name of the Taliban. But although we don't have any control over them, we don't allow such groups to come into our areas. None of these is involved with us in fighting against NATO troops in Afghanistan," Jalil said.

Peace talks are only feasible to those who lay down their weapons. Not these militants who are coming from 'Afghanistan' being funded by RAW. For further discussion on 'talking to taliban' I would like to refer you to this thread.

 

[blain2]

All,

I have just introduced myself, can’t post any links but please see Introduction.

I visited Pakistan last year and saw a ground swell of anger in Pakistan against the Army due to operations like “Lal-Masjid” etc. As a youngster growing up in Pakistan the feelings towards the Army were different.

I am a practising Muslim but I have come to the realisation that something isn’t right!

These Mujahedees/Militants (call them what you will) are very well equipped and well trained, far removed from rag-tag Army that some think they are. Moreover I have repeatedly heard the talks of Dr Israr Ahmed (& others) to say that these people in SWAT and not even from SWAT.

I also realise that a soldier merely obeys order and does his job and in that cause may lose his life.

Surely it can’t be good for the Morale of the Army to be ordered to shoot at their own people? Where is the motivation of the soldiers come from?
In my mind I think the Ulama/Mullahs/Scholars (call them what you will) should ASSIST in brokering a ceasefire and STOP people fighting the Pakistan Army and vice-versa? I mean what do they gain by killing Pakistan Army and what does Pakistan Army gain by killing them?

Where do we begin to untangle this mess, no one is winning here!

I see practising Muslims cursing the Army and Secularists blaming Islam, how can they meet halfway?

Why are the practicing Muslims cursing the Army when those killing in the name of Islam and Jihad have killed more than 1000 innocent people in the streets of Pakistan? Who is killing innocent tribal leaders and piling on massive collateral damage in bombings of areas where countless innocent Muslims are going about their business?

As a practicing Muslim, it is my duty to condemn fassad and fitna on all sides. I cannot do adl when my condemnation is only for the violence of the state and I am mute as to the actions of the other side which blindly and horrendously kills everyone.

Pakistan Army is forced to fight such elements because if they do not, then Pakistan will be attacked by outsiders. People are going from Pakistan into Afghanistan, how do you propose they be stopped? Negotiations don't work. There have been many attempts. Army has no choice. The security of Pakistan is the task assigned to them. They have no choice but to take on these folks who are stirring up trouble in neighboring countries. If we say that Jihad should be waged against the US in Afghanistan because their's is a wrongful occupation, then why are only Pakistanis paying for it? Where are the other Muslim countries? Where is the diplomatic, economic pressure on the US to withdraw? Why are the other Muslim nations not trying to negotiate a peaceful agreement between the US and the Pashtuns in Afghanistan so this fitna in Pakistan ends?

So after their usual condemnation of the Army as the agent of the Amreeki, once you start peeling the layers of complications, then you realize that ours is a country, Army caught in a very tight spot. You cannot blame Pakistan Army for it all. They are only reacting. The actions of the other side are threatening the entire of Pakistan as outsiders are busy destabilizing Pakistan as Pakistan is deemed unhelpful in the fight against the Taliban. So who are the Islamists rooting for? I am confused myself as to how someone can so clearly take a stand. I myself am confused as neither side (The Army and its Islamist detractors) is totally wrong or right.

 

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Asslamo Allaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

To be very honest I don't believe that any Muslim or anyone who cares an iota about Pakistan would go around killing, bombing and maiming innocent civilians and I also understand that PAK Army is "doing its job" because people want to destroy the law and order of the country by acting like vigilantes but I don't believe that Soldiers of PAK Army are happily fighting this "War on Terror".

The job of PAK Army is to defend the borders against foreign aggression and not to turn its guns on its own people.

I remember the bomb blast at the shrine of Ali (RA) in Iraq last year and the Americans were quick to portray it as a Shia/Sunni issue but no Sunni or Shia would EVER bomb the shrine of Ali (RA) because he (RA) is sacred to both.

Similarly strategically it doesn't make sense for the Mujahedeen to engage PAK Army, what would that achieve?

I have taken the time to read through the Lal Masjid thread provided to me and most of the items I had already read last year; there is no point in dwelling on Who's right and Who's wrong unless there is a full judicial and independent enquiry into this issue.

I have stated very clearly that these elements who are fighting the Army are well trained and well equipped and I am wondering who is supplying the weapons?

The point is that all sides (Pakistani People, sincere Muslims and Pakistan Army) are losing vital resources, how do we reconcile the matter? Shooting (from all sides) is NOT the answer, you guys are a lot closer to the action then I am, what is the solution?

In Karachi the thugs from MQM get financial incentives from RAW and the idiots have been brainwashed into quasi-Indian loyalty (due to their ancestry) and they disrupt the peace, who is behind the weapons & training in Bajur which are being used against the Army?

Frankly, from I know about Maulana Fazlur-Rahman and I don't trust him (one little bit), who else is there to take charge and do something? Is there is a process of engagement for this problem?

Thanks

 

[Cheetah786]

Colonel_Hardstone;

To be very honest I don't believe that any Muslim or anyone who cares an iota about Pakistan would go around killing, bombing and maiming innocent civilians and I also understand that PAK Army is "doing its job" because people want to destroy the law and order of the country by acting like vigilantes but I don't believe that Soldiers of PAK Army are happily fighting this "War on Terror".

I believe the answer is in Quran and very clear ''you are not Muslim if others are not safe from you''
Terror is destroying Pakistan and Islam for that matter Pakistan army soldiers are happy to defend Pakistan it doesn't matter if its a outsider who is trying to destabilize the country or a insider.

The job of PAK Army is to defend the borders against foreign aggression and not to turn its guns on its own people.

Last i checked Pakistan army job is to protect Pakistan regardless who the trouble maker is.

I remember the bomb blast at the shrine of Ali (RA) in Iraq last year and the Americans were quick to portray it as a Shia/Sunni issue but no Sunni or Shia would EVER bomb the shrine of Ali (RA) because he (RA) is sacred to both.

There never been a fight between shia and Sunni as a shia i can pretty much guarantee you that.but the trouble isn't the sunnies or shias trouble is House of Saud make what you like of it.

Similarly strategically it doesn't make sense for the Mujahedeen to engage PAK Army, what would that achieve?

Mujahadeen (unless They are fighting for Islam which they are not please don't use this word)they are terrorist and nothing but.

I have taken the time to read through the Lal Masjid thread provided to me and most of the items I had already read last year; there is no point in dwelling on Who's right and Who's wrong unless there is a full judicial and independent enquiry into this issue.

They stole the land to build a mosque last i checked Islam doesn't allow you to take what you like for free second it wasn't a mosque after people with weapons allowed in it so ponder that.

I have stated very clearly that these elements who are fighting the Army are well trained and well equipped and I am wondering who is supplying the weapons?

It doesn't matter who is supplying them the arms it matter who is using it and for what purpose.if they are getting training from another country then they clearly no what they are doing.so why keep asking the same question and blame the army then.

The point is that all sides (Pakistani People, sincere Muslims and Pakistan Army) are losing vital resources, how do we reconcile the matter? Shooting (from all sides) is NOT the answer, you guys are a lot closer to the action then I am, what is the solution?

Latoon ki bhoot batoon se naheen mantee.

In Karachi the thugs from MQM get financial incentives from RAW and the idiots have been brainwashed into quasi-Indian loyalty (due to their ancestry) and they disrupt the peace, who is behind the weapons & training in Bajur which are being used against the Army?

First Zia started MQM not RAW second Most Urdu speaking Pakistanis don't consider them selfs Indians and for the last part please have some respect it was there ancestors that helped in the creation of Pakistan by giving there lives for it (they wouldn't have done it if they wanted to be Indian)

Frankly, from I know about Maulana Fazlur-Rahman and I don't trust him (one little bit), who else is there to take charge and do something? Is there is a process of engagement for this problem?

You do no FAzlur is also known as mulana diesel(cause he smuggles it from Iran)causing the tax payers of Pakistan millions of dollars in lost revenue.so you can decide how much of mullah he is and to answer the last part cancer need to be cut out of body before it spreads and kill you cant negotiate with it.

Thanks

 

[muse]

It's classic case, how many times have we heard from the enemy that they speak in the name of Islam, that they are the true Muslims, not the rest if us, how many times do the enemy's apologists show up and claim that no muslim can do this - this classic case is a propagandist for the Islamist enemies of Pakistan and Muslims - in their war against the world, it is clear that their targets are Muslims, it does not matter to them from what nationality, as long as they kill Muslims.

That they use the forum to spread their propaganda is just a damn shame, be sure there will be soon more of them here, now that they have their foot in the door so to speak.

Instead of being engaged on this forum, these enemies need to be engaged with authorities.