No country for brave men

[pundit]

Whether this is a religious law or non-religious law, ask yourself one question:

If you were hypothetically Christian/Hindu/non-muslim, would you be happy to live under it?

 

[pundit]

They are not normal people who you can reason with, but uncivilized people.

That sounds like a law and order issue to me. However, from this thread itself, it seems that a lot of educated Pakistanis (access to the Internet and all that) also support this. The issue runs deeper than just mullahs. There doesn't seem to be any space for a dissenting voice.

 

[Solomon2]

@Solomon2,
What needs to be done?...I have finally given up on the evolutionary path following the 2008 elections. I don't think now even the military can clean this up on its.

As I see it, the Pakistani Civil War has just started. If Taseer's assassin was just a lone loony he would not have enjoyed widespread support inside and outside government, but he does. So Taseer's assassination was just the first shot. Law enforcement is splitting right now, and soon splits in the Army will be visible. It may be a matter of weeks or months, but soon blood will be flowing in the streets and ministries.

We need to take drastic steps! And we will need full outside support from all.

I can't tell you what you should do. I can only tell you what I think I might do:

1) I would be scared. I would not comfort myself with lies that all will be well. I would feel fear and - more importantly - accept that such fear will not go away any time soon.

I am not going to live in Pakistan's geo-strategic location mantra and some great game scenarios.

2) Then I would have to consider this choice: do I fight or do I flee? My German Jewish grandparents sent their youngest offspring to England. They remained behind and eventually arranged the escapes of others until they themselves were deported and murdered.

Some Iranians fled at the outset of the Revolution. However, from the very beginning the mullahs had set up foreign espionage and assassination units. These targeted officials of the former regime, like my Iranian neighbor who retired a few years before the Revolution. His murderer returned to Iran to be hailed as a hero.

Given this history, plus the fanaticism of the opposition, I'd realize that fleeing abroad would not relieve my fears, but only buy me a little time; it would probably also mean accepting surrender. So I think I would choose to stay and fight.

A few pages ago, in this Topic, I posted my very early, un-patriotic, and desperate thoughts about can be done. With Taseer's death and the subsequent support for the assassin in blgspace and media ... I have seen the enemy and it us!

Compare to:

...The whole law in Pakistan is a cheap copy of British laws and there are loopholes in some that you can drive a double decker bus thru them... yet liberals choose to target this law only... This gives the impression that it is not about sorting out the problems of the people/Pakistan rather it is a shot at Islam itself... If only our politicians had the decency and sensitivity in the matter considering the Prophet saw has been insulted across the western world in recent times...All sorts of criminals get away with their crimes using loopholes in Pakistani laws.

Take heed: Islamo-crazies aren't the only enemy. Pakistan's corrupt system of democratic governance is, too. The injustice of the current lot is one of the drivers of Islamist extremism. The politicians know they don't have much support for this reason, which is probably why they are responding so weakly in the face of Taseer's assassination.

That would lead me to

3) Enter the contest for leadership myself. I'd have to enunciate a vision for my country. I'd have to explain why it was superior. I'd have to take on the arguments of the opposition head-on. And I'd have to appeal to neighbors, police, and even the military to defend me and my vision with their lives, if necessary. We'd commit to cordoning off the neighborhood from extremists and expelling them from our midst.

This is the most important step. (If I couldn't attempt it, if I couldn't offer a vision contesting the Islamists to inspire men to live and die for then I'd probably give up and flee immediately. The unthinkable alternative would be to join the bandwagon and support the monsters myself.)

It sounds wild, but remember, I'd already be scared, and so are the democratic elements in the police, armed forces, and even diplomats abroad. Yet all of these are public servants; they can not act independently and democratically at the same time. They must have a civilian base of support dedicated to democratic rule.

4) Next we would be to formalize the government of my protected enclave. There would be a "town meeting" near my house. I'd probably be temporary chairman, following Robert's Rules of Order. We'd set up a government, be it as basic as the Mayflower Compact, and appoint police and military commanders and dividing civic administration. Many of the laws of the country would have to be suspended. What I would keep are laws defending persons, property, adding that all government be open to public scrutiny, the Four Freedoms and the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Note especially the last article:

XVI That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian [x-out "Christian", I suppose] forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

5) At this point I'd expect my role at the helm of leadership might be over, or at least in abeyance. The goal from here would be to rally democratic forces, encouraging the formation of more redoubts, and the defeat of the militant Islamists. The militants would be too busy defending themselves to target me, and anyway by this stage killing me would accomplish nothing: the newly-reformed democratic community would have steeled themselves for the battle ahead, battling or co-opting militants.

6) Eventually, we would win: we'd have a democratic Pakistan - if we could keep it...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

OOH FOR F*CKS SAKES









IT
IS
NOT
AN
ISLAMIC
LAW

Bro Abu Zolfiqar... It has its basis in Islam... There are known reports of the prophet saw ordering his Sahabah to kill blasphemers...

I think a read of this leaflet would be of help... JzkAllah Khair...

As per Islamic law the punishment for the blasphemy of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) is nothing but death. When the Prophet of mercy Muhammad (saaw) opened Makkah, he ordered the killing of few individuals “even if they were wrapped in the curtains of the Ka’ba”, and among them were those who committed blasphemy against the Prophet. Abdullah Bin Khtal was killed while he was holding the curtains of the Ka’ba so were the two women Sara and Qareeba. [Tabari] Also in the third Hijra, The Prophet (saaw) got the Jew Ka’ab bin Ashraf assassinated through a commando operation led by Muhammad Bin Muslima [ra] who used to use foul language against the Prophet (saww). [Tabari]

The original leaflet here...

The only sentence for the blasphemy of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) is capital punishment!!! | Hizb ut-Tahrir: Wilayah Pakistan

 

[Ahmad]

what has happend to the other bodyguards? have they been questioned yet?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

As I see it, the Pakistani Civil War has just started. If Taseer's assassin was just a lone loony he would not have enjoyed widespread support inside and outside government, but he does. So Taseer's assassination was just the first shot. Law enforcement is splitting right now, and soon splits in the Army will be visible. It may be a matter of weeks or months, but soon blood will be flowing in the streets and ministries.

I can't tell you what you should do. I can only tell you what I think I might do:

1) I would be scared. I would not comfort myself with lies that all will be well. I would feel fear and - more importantly - accept that such fear will not go away any time soon.

2) Then I would have to consider this choice: do I fight or do I flee? My German Jewish grandparents sent their youngest offspring to England. They remained behind and eventually arranged the escapes of others until they themselves were deported and murdered.

Some Iranians fled at the outset of the Revolution. However, from the very beginning the mullahs had set up foreign espionage and assassination units. These targeted officials of the former regime, like my Iranian neighbor who retired a few years before the Revolution. His murderer returned to Iran to be hailed as a hero.

Given this history, plus the fanaticism of the opposition, I'd realize that fleeing abroad would not relieve my fears, but only buy me a little time; it would probably also mean accepting surrender. So I think I would choose to stay and fight.



Compare to:Take heed: Islamo-crazies aren't the only enemy. Pakistan's corrupt system of democratic governance is, too. The injustice of the current lot is one of the drivers of Islamist extremism. The politicians know they don't have much support for this reason, which is probably why they are responding so weakly in the face of Taseer's assassination.

That would lead me to

3) Enter the contest for leadership myself. I'd have to enunciate a vision for my country. I'd have to explain why it was superior. I'd have to take on the arguments of the opposition head-on. And I'd have to appeal to neighbors, police, and even the military to defend me and my vision with their lives, if necessary. We'd commit to cordoning off the neighborhood from extremists and expelling them from our midst.

This is the most important step. (If I couldn't attempt it, if I couldn't offer a vision contesting the Islamists to inspire men to live and die for then I'd probably give up and flee immediately. The unthinkable alternative would be to join the bandwagon and support the monsters myself.)

It sounds wild, but remember, I'd already be scared, and so are the democratic elements in the police, armed forces, and even diplomats abroad. Yet all of these are public servants; they can not act independently and democratically at the same time. They must have a civilian base of support dedicated to democratic rule.

4) Next we would be to formalize the government of my protected enclave. There would be a "town meeting" near my house. I'd probably be temporary chairman, following Robert's Rules of Order. We'd set up a government, be it as basic as the Mayflower Compact, and appoint police and military commanders and dividing civic administration. Many of the laws of the country would have to be suspended. What I would keep are laws defending persons, property, adding that all government be open to public scrutiny, the Four Freedoms and the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Note especially the last article:

5) At this point I'd expect my role at the helm of leadership might be over, or at least in abeyance. The goal from here would be to rally democratic forces, encouraging the formation of more redoubts, and the defeat of the militant Islamists. The militants would be too busy defending themselves to target me, and anyway by this stage killing me would accomplish nothing: the newly-reformed democratic community would have steeled themselves for the battle ahead, battling or co-opting militants.

6) Eventually, we would win: we'd have a democratic Pakistan - if we could keep it...

Hey Solomon2... Are you talking to yourself here?

Sorry, but it looked like that... I did not understand the context you quoted me in... cheers

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Whether this is a religious law or non-religious law, ask yourself one question:

If you were hypothetically Christian/Hindu/non-muslim, would you be happy to live under it?

All decent human beings regardless of their religion would love to live in a society where cheap insults against prophets are shunned and punished harshly... Do you really think all non Muslims are so stupid that they want to go around insulting people left right and centre?

 

[pundit]

Bro Abu Zolfiqar... It has its basis in Islam... There are known reports of the prophet saw ordering his Sahabah to kill blasphemers...

Is blasphemy an offense against you (as a muslim) or it is against Allah?

If it is an offense against your personal feelings, then how is it different from, say, me shouting gaalis at you/your family. You can shout back, but you don't have the right to kill for that.

If it is an offense against Allah, is he so weak that he can't protect/punish? And what possible punishment can you give that will be better than Allah's punishment? Are you better than Allah?

 

[Solomon2]

Hey Solomon2...I did not understand the context you quoted me in.

You expressed clear grievances with the current system of government in Pakistan. These problems don't just apply to people devoted to Islam. They apply to most everyone. Yet that doesn't mean the only alternative is sharia law.

Are you talking to yourself here?

Other than yourself, you mean? Let's find out!

 

[pundit]

All decent human beings regardless of their religion would love to live in a society where cheap insults against prophets are shunned and punished harshly

1. Do you extend the same courtesy to the prophet of the Qadianis/Ahmedis/Aga Khanis?

2. If I should declare myself a prophet tomorrow and gather 20 followers, can I also demand that insults against me be treated likewise?

3. What if someone does not believe in a particular prophet and wants to express his/her opinion?

4. Why should religious people get to decide what is allowed to be said in society? Why not atheists or scientists or dissenters?

Do you really think all non Muslims are so stupid that they want to go around insulting people left right and centre?

1. If you threaten people with violence, of course you win if you are in a majority. Who wants to end up with bullets in their chest anyway.

2. Insults are just words. Everyone has a different level of tolerance and may take umbrage at a different level of provocation. How to measure this ? Is there an insult-pain-o-meter?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

As I see it, the Pakistani Civil War has just started.

no, that's probably just what people like you want to happen but I dont think it will

it may be a war of ideas and beliefs, but it will never transpire to civil war in Pakistan; though i wouldnt mind seeing all the religious extremists eradicated --even physically

If Taseer's assassin was just a lone loony he would not have enjoyed widespread support inside and outside government, but he does. So Taseer's assassination was just the first shot. Law enforcement is splitting right now

in a country of 180 million people, even if 40,000 lobby behind that loony it still doesnt mean much

and soon splits in the Army will be visible.

not a CHANCE of that happening, so i will dismiss it just like i often dismiss your other stuff as:




blah:)

It may be a matter of weeks or months, but soon blood will be flowing in the streets and ministries.

since when did you Americans care? as long as the violence doesnt affect you, what do you care?

1) I would be scared. I would not comfort myself with lies that all will be well. I would feel fear and - more importantly - accept that such fear will not go away any time soon.

2) Then I would have to consider this choice: do I fight or do I flee? My German Jewish grandparents sent their youngest offspring to England. They remained behind and eventually arranged the escapes of others until they themselves were deported and murdered.

yeah, that's great.........we've had instability for past few years now; nobody (except some wealthys) would just pack up and run away from the land they love

Some Iranians fled at the outset of the Revolution. However, from the very beginning the mullahs had set up foreign espionage and assassination units. These targeted officials of the former regime, like my Iranian neighbor who retired a few years before the Revolution. His murderer returned to Iran to be hailed as a hero.

what is your POINT?

Pakistan isnt Iran.

Given this history, plus the fanaticism of the opposition, I'd realize that fleeing abroad would not relieve my fears, but only buy me a little time; it would probably also mean accepting surrender. So I think I would choose to stay and fight.

Pakistanis are fatalistic people. We are not easily scared as the typical westerner is; we believe our fate is in God's hands, and we trust what God has in store for us.

Though it is true that God gave people brains and wit to decide what is best for themselves.

Compare to:Take heed: Islamo-crazies aren't the only enemy.

why don't you just label them what they really are? Religious extremists

time and time again you show your animosity towards Islam. In fact, i think you just come here to troll sometimes. Others may let it slide, but my patience with some of your crap posts is starting to wear very thin, Suleyman.

Pakistan's corrupt system of democratic governance is, too. The injustice of the current lot is one of the drivers of Islamist extremism. The politicians know they don't have much support for this reason, which is probably why they are responding so weakly in the face of Taseer's assassination.

stating the obvious....but yes, the system does need to change. I dont think the current govt. will be able to address any of these problems.

It sounds wild, but remember, I'd already be scared, and so are the democratic elements in the police, armed forces, and even diplomats abroad. Yet all of these are public servants; they can not act independently and democratically at the same time. They must have a civilian base of support dedicated to democratic rule.

I personally dont think Pakistan is ready for truly democratic rule. I used to even a few months back.

rest of your post is a bit redundant though you have some good points here and there....


Pakistanis can decide their own fate though; no need for outsiders to nit-pick and suddenly claim they are experts on this more complex region --where standard western rhetoric does not (and need not) always apply

 

[Meengla]

@Solomon2,
I appreciate your input. I will be back with a response later.
@Mohd bin Qasim,
I will give you this much: The Prophet of Islam was not a Jesus-like person. The Prophet of Islam did take part in wars and, if my memory is correct, he may have personally killed someone or have someone get killed--especially those who fought against, tortured, and killed early Muslims. He was more in the mould of Moses. Not Jesus.
To understand this: Everyone can benefit from an excellent movie called 'The Message' (1976) starring Anthony Quinn. It is an authentic early history of Islam and shows the Prophet of Islam wearing many hats; being a military general is one of them.
However, he also took a lot of personal insults without paying back. I find it hard to believe that he, upon whom actual ***** was poured and yet forgave, would decide to kill someone for personal verbal abuse.
Oh, but we are not talking about 6th century Arabia here. We are talking about a Black Law introduced by a RUTHLESS military general in Pakistan in the 1980s.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Is blasphemy an offense against you (as a muslim) or it is against Allah?

If it is an offense against your personal feelings, then how is it different from, say, me shouting gaalis at you/your family. You can shout back, but you don't have the right to kill for that.

If it is an offense against Allah, is he so weak that he can't protect/punish? And what possible punishment can you give that will be better than Allah's punishment? Are you better than Allah?

Your comment is silly but I will answer it in the hopes that you are genuinely interested to know the answer...

Allah's law is to be implemented by mankind... Allah did not say that He himself will come and sort out the enemies alone rather he ordered Muslims to engage in Jihad when the enemy attacks... Think before you post stupid comments...

 

[Patriot]

I've never seen an Islamic rally against corruption or disease or underdevelopment or lack of education. The right has never bothered to tackle any corruption or misuse of power. Now they're gloating over their triumph over a sinner. Again, this was a religiously motivated murder. Invoking God's retribution here is highly disingenuous.We've reached a point where you can't even say anything against the moulvis withouth being killed.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

assalam alaikum

Ahmad yesterday Geo was reporting he told the other fellow if he kill the governer don't stop me i will surrender.

An interesting read i think in the first page brailvee scholars ( who r against taliban ) were more for the Law ( 500 scholars ). Brailvees r the biggest group in pakistan ... the not so called WAHABIES R WITH THE LAW ?

TARIQ