Need for a 1000 ton Corvette for PN

[Armchair]

Hi, I want to start this thread to look at a 1000 ton corvette for PN. Given that Azmat is 560 tons and the Damen boats will easily be 2000 tons, and Ada 2500 tons, there is a huge cap in tonnage, a giant hole in exactly the general purpose size suited for PN's A2D strategy.

Questions:
1. Why is PN ignoring this tonnage range?
2. What kind of boat in this range would be ideal? What kind of systems, roles, etc.

Personally for me:
I believe that a 1000-1500 ton corvette should be the mainstay of PN, ideally. 10-20 ships.
Neither the hull of Azmat nor Type 56 is suitable for a variety of reasons.

You are patrolling the extended A2D area - basically Pakistani waters. Ensuring IN cannot get to attack the coast. Perhaps:

Turkish ASW systems, local towed array
8x Harbah
Korkut in the A position
Local PDMS
Probably a version if not every ship, that has an 8x or 16x VLS

Here is my thinking - since they are supporting operations relatively close to shore - they should each be assigned a shore-based UCAV that will fly to their location but be based on land. Each ship should have 2 so there is constant coverage.

Being shore based would significantly simplify operations.

This should be the standard ship of the PN and should also be an export item.

 

[MBT 3000]

not an expert but heard navy is buyng type 54A frigates

 

[Gryphon]

Hi, I want to start this thread to look at a 1000 ton corvette for PN. Given that Azmat is 560 tons and the Damen boats will easily be 2000 tons, and Ada 2500 tons, there is a huge cap in tonnage, a giant hole in exactly the general purpose size suited for PN's A2D strategy.

Questions:
1. Why is PN ignoring this tonnage range?
2. What kind of boat in this range would be ideal? What kind of systems, roles, etc.

Personally for me:
I believe that a 1000-1500 ton corvette should be the mainstay of PN, ideally. 10-20 ships.
Neither the hull of Azmat nor Type 56 is suitable for a variety of reasons.

You are patrolling the extended A2D area - basically Pakistani waters. Ensuring IN cannot get to attack the coast. Perhaps:

Turkish ASW systems, local towed array
8x Harbah
Korkut in the A position
Local PDMS
Probably a version if not every ship, that has an 8x or 16x VLS

Here is my thinking - since they are supporting operations relatively close to shore - they should each be assigned a shore-based UCAV that will fly to their location but be based on land. Each ship should have 2 so there is constant coverage.

Being shore based would significantly simplify operations.

This should be the standard ship of the PN and should also be an export item.

To fill the gap between FAC-M and frigates, PN should induct ships like Gayduk-M.

8x VL-Mica, 1x 35 mm Millennium gun, 8x Exocet, 4x torpedoes. Thales Smart-S Mk2 and OTH radars.

The 3.1 m draught allows performing ASW missions in shallow waters. A perfect multirole platform.

 

[Armchair]

To fill the gap between FAC-M and frigates, PN should induct ships like Gayduk-M.

8x VL-Mica, 1x 35 mm Millennium gun, 8x Exocet, 4x torpedoes. Thales Smart-S Mk2 and OTH radars.

The 3.1 m draught allows performing ASW missions in shallow waters. A perfect multirole platform.

Laksamana class looks interesting but dated.

Here is the weapons fit:

Armament:

• 1 × 76 mm Oto Melara
• 1 × DARDO CIWS
• 12 × Aspide SAM
• 6 × Otomat Mk 2 SSM
• 2 × Eurotorp B515 324 mm triple torpedo tubes

Looks under-armed but add anything more and it will be top heavy for the kind of sea-state PN faces.

gives an idea of what generally can be achieved. If you notice, this design is not far from an Azmat in capability minus the MRSAM

 

[Darth Vader]

In other post i said that too

Pakistan needs these small ship to do a specific role instead of being a versatile shipsand they work as group instead of a single ship
Lets say one group can be formed of 3 ships
One ship work as anti air , other work as boat hunter while 3rd General and anti sub with its helo

As with dedicated roles it will increase the survival and it will be much easier to move sailors in the time of war as it will take less time for them to train and will add extra power to lead bigger ships as they work in groups and will be able to tackle bigger enemies on there own

Iike a battle group but in much smaller level
You have 2000+ ships than you have these 3 small ships and if you add a sub it will be quite hard for any enemy to breach and go through them

Lets assume pakistan makes 5 groups of 3 ship
Pakistan
Thats 15 boats
And if they deploy 2 or 3 groups they can easily push through enemy forces with just numbers

Against india you need quantity with quality



If pakistan can ask few privates companies to do JV with navy and navy already has experience in ship building sector and they will the lead so other companies can get experience and train and work on there own and in future they are able to do projects on there own

It will help grow quite few other industries and will build a private sector which can offer ships to other countries at much lower rates and as it will lower the cost for Pakistan too

 

[ziaulislam]

Laksamana class looks interesting but dated.

Here is the weapons fit:

Armament:

• 1 × 76 mm Oto Melara
• 1 × DARDO CIWS
• 12 × Aspide SAM
• 6 × Otomat Mk 2 SSM
• 2 × Eurotorp B515 324 mm triple torpedo tubes

Looks under-armed but add anything more and it will be top heavy for the kind of sea-state PN faces.

gives an idea of what generally can be achieved. If you notice, this design is not far from an Azmat in capability minus the MRSAM

In opinion the cannon can be ditched for 30 mm CIWS. Add another Fl 3000 RAM, 4-8 call SAM VLS, and last a two sonar with light torpedo fit in 1000 tone ship and there you go

Need indigenous/joint venture efforts to build AESA and a short range VLS to replace SPADA..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Azmat Class is proper for out small fast attack ship needs
and minor , improved plus version would be perhaps able to fill the 1,000 Tone segment

The platform can be enhanced to go from 560 Ton to 900 Tones ,and we should be able to fit more options for mission

It should not be that difficult to extend the size of the ship to incorporate more weapon choices

 

[Armchair]

In opinion the cannon can be ditched for 30 mm CIWS. Add another Fl 3000 RAM, 4-8 call SAM VLS, and last a two sonar with light torpedo fit in 1000 tone ship and there you go

Need indigenous/joint venture efforts to build AESA and a short range VLS to replace SPADA..

I agree. you could have a Korkut for CIWS at the A position. In the rear you could have an FL-3000N / 630 combo. 12x Harba, Turkish sonar suite and torpedoes. Instead of an RHIB you could have a USV.

What would be better would be if certain expensive items can be sourced locally. For instance, Harbah is a great example of this, as is the local dipping sonar.

Can local torpedoes be added to this mix? How about a local UAV and USV?

Major forex costs left - engines - SAMs, CIWS

If you could find an indigenous solution to the PDMS SAM and the VLS, you'd have drastically reduced costs and forex needs. Basically, you'd have a JF-17 of the seas.

Russian Karakurt missile corvette.

800 tons

• 1 × 76.2 mm
• 1 × Pantsir-M CIWS
• 2 × 4 UKSK VLS cells with Kalibr-NKsystem or P-800 Oniks
• 2 × 14.5 mm MTPU machineguns

In other post i said that too

Pakistan needs these small ship to do a specific role instead of being a versatile shipsand they work as group instead of a single ship
Lets say one group can be formed of 3 ships
One ship work as anti air , other work as boat hunter while 3rd General and anti sub with its helo

As with dedicated roles it will increase the survival and it will be much easier to move sailors in the time of war as it will take less time for them to train and will add extra power to lead bigger ships as they work in groups and will be able to tackle bigger enemies on there own

Iike a battle group but in much smaller level
You have 2000+ ships than you have these 3 small ships and if you add a sub it will be quite hard for any enemy to breach and go through them

Lets assume pakistan makes 5 groups of 3 ship
Pakistan
Thats 15 boats
And if they deploy 2 or 3 groups they can easily push through enemy forces with just numbers

Against india you need quantity with quality



If pakistan can ask few privates companies to do JV with navy and navy already has experience in ship building sector and they will the lead so other companies can get experience and train and work on there own and in future they are able to do projects on there own

It will help grow quite few other industries and will build a private sector which can offer ships to other countries at much lower rates and as it will lower the cost for Pakistan too

Hi Darth Vader,

What kind of equipment and fitting out do you propose for the three types of the ship that you are planning? My personal thoughts are that, because of miniaturization in the past 2 decades, it is possible to have air defence, anti surface and anti submarine in a 1000 ton platform. Viz:

Turkish sonar mounted in the hull, towed sonar (indigenous). Lightweight torpedoes
armed UAV for naval Recon / anti surface / ASW role
8x Harbah AShM
CIWS & PDMS for air defence

Basically the capability of an Ada class corvette without the helicopter hangar and assorted space for equipment and personnel. And shorter range obviously, Ada is 2400 tons.

The Typhoon, only the second Karakurt-class corvette made so far, is the latest example of the Russian Navy's increased reliance on small and heavily armed ships that can carry a massive payload of missiles. Russia plans to make 18 Karakurt-class corvettes in total.

The small vessels, comparable to the US Navy's littoral combat ships, and known in the naval world as corvettes, were originally designed for use in the littoral zone, the area of water close to the shore. As such, the corvettes are much smaller than the frigates and destroyers that are the traditional focus of navies around the world.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-navy-new-corvette-small-missile-laden-ships-2017-11

 

[Armchair]

Interesting article about how Russia is utilizing modern technologies to pack a much greater punch in its corvettes.

"The development of small but power platform will increase Russia’s capabilities in deterring NATO. In theory, Russian small missile-carrying ships will be able to hit almost any ground or maritime target in Europe," Kornev told RT.

Widely distributed firepower across a range of ships and submarines ensures spreading out risks and minimising big potential combat losses, is called “distributed lethality“. Unlike a high profile target, such as an aircraft carrier, (*1), which entails a lot of protection, huge costs and also a lot of focus directed by an opponent,(The Saker 09 Nov 2017), the deployment of a corvette or small frigate is a lot less onerous. About half of Russian Navy warships are likely to be armed with Kalibr cruise missiles by late 2020.

https://thesaker.is/part-2-towards-a-corvette-centric-russian-navy/

It seems that the US & NATO ignored the Russian Navy’s small warships’ capabilities up to 7th October 2015, where several ships of the Caspian Sea Flotilla launched a volley of Kalibrs towards Syria, (Sputnik October 2015). The lethal combination of high-precision long-range missiles, combined with ships of small displacements, might have made some Western naval experts uneasy. The devil in the detail is when NATO was deeply unhappy when two Project 21631, Buyan-M class corvettes, (‘Zeleny Dol’ & ‘Serpukhov’), moved from the Black Sea to the Baltic last year. (Reuters 26 October 2016). Interestingly, they too participated in the Syrian campaign briefly before their deployment to the Baltic. This gave the Baltic Sea Fleet a huge boost, since it previously didn’t have a single Kalibr-carrying surface ship. This certainly shifted the focus of attention by NATO for a brief moment, with short-lived MSM arm-flapping as well.

The idea of distributed lethality and cost-capability comparison:

Buyan-M specifications:

Length: 75 m Full: 949 tons, Kalibr: 8 cells VLS, cost: US$ 140m (aprox)

Basically, 7 Buyan class ships can roughly match the size of a

Arleigh Burke class, with a total of 56 Kalibrs, a good example of ‘distributed lethality’. [Note: Cost of latest Arleigh Burke class is said to be US$1.843 billion per ship. + An estimated repair bill for the USS Fitzgerald is estimated to be $500-million alone].

 

[Armchair]

The Turkish Korkut would be an interesting solution for a number of reasons. It seems to have an uncanny resemblance to the Oerlikon Millennium Gun. Both look identical and fire 35mm AHEAD ammunition. The main difference is Korkut has two barrels, firing more munition, more rapidly.

It is very likely Korkut was developed with assistance from Oerlikon. The Millenium gun has had limited success for use in European navies, but is an ideal weapon for PN, given the speed and mass, and sheer kinetic force of the Brahmos AShMs.

Studies have shown that the Phalanx is just not able to deal with large high speed missiles effectively. This is a reason some European countries chose the Goalkeeper and the Millennium Gun. It is for this reason that the Korkut is an ideal system for PN's use. If it can be priced appropriately.

The other issue is if a PDMS SAM can be integrated with the Korkut. Something like how the Russians and Chinese have chosen a hybrid CIWS / PDMS model.

For a corvette, two such systems, would provide a solid air defense capability.

 

[Darth Vader]

I agree. you could have a Korkut for CIWS at the A position. In the rear you could have an FL-3000N / 630 combo. 12x Harba, Turkish sonar suite and torpedoes. Instead of an RHIB you could have a USV.

What would be better would be if certain expensive items can be sourced locally. For instance, Harbah is a great example of this, as is the local dipping sonar.

Can local torpedoes be added to this mix? How about a local UAV and USV?

Major forex costs left - engines - SAMs, CIWS

If you could find an indigenous solution to the PDMS SAM and the VLS, you'd have drastically reduced costs and forex needs. Basically, you'd have a JF-17 of the seas.

Russian Karakurt missile corvette.

800 tons

• 1 × 76.2 mm
• 1 × Pantsir-M CIWS
• 2 × 4 UKSK VLS cells with Kalibr-NKsystem or P-800 Oniks
• 2 × 14.5 mm MTPU machineguns

Hi Darth Vader,

What kind of equipment and fitting out do you propose for the three types of the ship that you are planning? My personal thoughts are that, because of miniaturization in the past 2 decades, it is possible to have air defence, anti surface and anti submarine in a 1000 ton platform. Viz:

Turkish sonar mounted in the hull, towed sonar (indigenous). Lightweight torpedoes
armed UAV for naval Recon / anti surface / ASW role
8x Harbah AShM
CIWS & PDMS for air defence

Basically the capability of an Ada class corvette without the helicopter hangar and assorted space for equipment and personnel. And shorter range obviously, Ada is 2400 tons.



http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-navy-new-corvette-small-missile-laden-ships-2017-11

Pakistan is already doing that and when most pakistani ships will go against heavy ships of indian army they will lack punch in power and numbers


Pakistan can deploy 3
Variants
1 ASW
As it will have extra heli it will only perform anti submarine and few guns for ciws
2nd Air Defence
With its specific role to counter small to large attack
3rd General Purpose and anti Ship / land
Specific with this role
So if each ships is 1200 ton they Will be easily able to counter 3000 ton ship just on its on and even if one ships take damage Pakistan can easily replace with other ships and can deploy sailors from that ships
as these are quicker and smaller ships they can attack and run too
Pakistan can take chinese and italian help as they have experience and system which pakistan will need

 

[Nike]

Independence class LMV from Singkies is a good fit

 

[dBSPL]

RMK Marine Corvette (export) model

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...w-fast-attack-craft-and-corvette-designs.html

-Length over all: 85 meters
-Cruising range: 3000 nautical miles at 16 knots, 30 days
-Mk41 VLS, for VL Mica by MBDA
-Thales Smart-S Mk2 radar,
-Otomat Mk 2 Block IV anti-ship missiles by MBDA
-Hull mounted sonar
-Fitted with a platform for a medium size helicopter up to 10 tons

C-1200 and LF-2400 / Corvette - Delta Marine (Based on Milgem)

http://www.deltamarine.com.tr/en/products/products-naval.php?NavalName=Light_Frigate_(LF-2400)


and some others http://www.taisshipyards.com/brochuresandcatalogues.php

Turkish Shipyards Portfolio (Although there are a few deficiencies, a fairly comprehensive study)
http://www.turkdefence.com/index.php/topic,23.0.html

Bonus: The new Milgem designed for Brazilian Navy corvette tender

 

[Tank131]

Frankly i would use chinese and turkish assistance to scale up and improve automation/ of Azmat class to twice its size (roughly 1120t). New addition include 8-12 cell vls with 8 cell for Umkhonto-eir and 4 for quad packed Cheetah (8 medium ranged and 16 short ranged SAM) or if an 8 cell vls 32 cheetah SAM. Add a sonar and towed array. Exchange the twin 25mm cannon for a 76mm gun and keep the rear AK630 and add 2 triple torpedo tubes. The rear could have a helipad behind the 6-8AShM (which i believe are sufficient, as on Azmat), but no hangar. They could store a heli-drone like Av500w modified with dipping sonar.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

For now , Big ships are no doubt in demand.
Cannot really complain after a wonderful Addition of Type 054 order by Pakistan Navy

The fast attack ship program is sufficient , for keeping intruders at Bay (i.e Azmat)