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Myth shatterd "india won 65 war?"

how you expect 5000 covert infiltrators to militarily wrest Kashmir away from the Indian Military deployed in J&K at the time.
the Pakistani intent was to create conditions in Kashmir that quell the Indian hold and force us to the negotiation table with you holding the leverage...had the whole thing succeeded...it would have not been labeled much of a militaristic move.
It did not.Many Pakistani army regulars were found in the midst of these tribals...the Kashmiris sided with us.

Secondly, J&K was and is disputed, and India had officially announce several years earlier that it was no longer interested in implementing the UNSC resolutions on resolving the dispute - so your argument of sovereignty does not apply in this case, since it is clearly not considered Indian territory by the international community and the UN.

Kashmir was no secret.The world knew it was a dispute.It was being governed by the GoI.A fact that we did not hide.You did not wait for the world to come out with an armed solution to Kashmir.
you got what you deserved.
It is not considered Indian territory but Indian governed territory by the international community and the UN.
So your decision to militarily wrestle with us to get the governing rights were not endorsed by the world community.
 
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This does not invalidate the point I made that India had defeated Operation Gibraltar, which the article you posted points out was to stoke a rebellion in Kashmir, and then proceeds to launch a military offensive against Pakistan across the ceasefire line.

Since Op. Gib had been defeated, the point about Indian objectives in attacking Pakistani controlled Kashmir remains, and the rest of earlier comments follow from there.

So Whatever Indian objectives were after Op. Gibralter was defeated, they were not accomplished since India ended with little territory gained either across the ceasefire line or IB.

Pakistan had launched attacks on the Akhnoor bridge..which served as the lifeline of Jammu...the attack on Punjab was meant to divert the offensive.
From the point on the armies got involved in Kashmir...it was a war alright.
 
Secondly, J&K was and is disputed, and India had officially announce several years earlier that it was no longer interested in implementing the UNSC resolutions on resolving the dispute - so your argument of sovereignty does not apply in this case, since it is clearly not considered Indian territory by the international community and the UN.

But still does not give rights to pakistan to send troops (regulars or irregulars) in the territory controlled by India without inviting war. And thats what happened in 1965
 
This does not invalidate the point I made that India had defeated Operation Gibraltar, which the article you posted points out was to stoke a rebellion in Kashmir, and then proceeds to launch a military offensive against Pakistan across the ceasefire line.

Since Op. Gib had been defeated, the point about Indian objectives in attacking Pakistani controlled Kashmir remains, and the rest of earlier comments follow from there.

So Whatever Indian objectives were after Op. Gibralter was defeated, they were not accomplished since India ended with little territory gained either across the ceasefire line or IB.

Agno, you are looking at it through the lense of convinience to prove your point. How do you know that op gibralter was just the 1st wave of military irregulars coming into kashmir. For all you know if India wouldnt have escalated, there could have been another wave.

In war, the one who wards off an attack does not sit back and wait for the next attack. It also needs to ensure no new attack is in the offing.

The war started with Op Gibralter to incite rebellion in kashmir and break it away. Now whether India's response was optimal or not, it defeated the strategic objectives of Pakistan.. Plain and simple
 
@AM - who was getting spanked in Kashmir ? Pakistan had lost the strategic Haji Pir Pass as well as the heights around Kargil in 65. To relieve pressure on your infiltrators you seemed to have launched an attack on Chhamb across the IB. It was only then that the Indians retaliated and attacked Lahore. I don't know how you cherry pick events to suit your argument. Seems like a lame attempt to blow your own trumpet.
 
@AM - little territory gained across the IB and cease fire line eh ? What about the Haji Pir Pass and the heights around Kargil ? We took those both from you. Not to mention all the area till the canal protecting Lahore was with India.
 
I thought Operation Gibraltar was a covert operation to spark an insurgency/rebellion in Kashmir, and not a conventional military assault to militarily take Kashmir.

If the former, then 'taking Kashmir' militarily was not the initial Pakistani objective. AFAIK, it was India that launched the first overt conventional military assaults across the ceasefire line in Kashmir, and then later opened another front on the International border when it came under severe pressure in Kashmir because of the Pakistani counterattack.

Given the above, your reasoning of why it was Pakistan that lost the war does not add up.
That WAS the objective. You can not read Op Gibralter in isolation. It was THAT in tandem with Op Grandslam that prempted India to cross the IB in order to release the pressure on Akhnoor and the constant fire from the 12th Division. Wars are not fought the way that you are prescribing here. Both the Operations were brilliantly designed but poorly executed, otherwise Kashmir could had been a different story today and THAT is where the PA lost and the InA didn't.
 
I thought Operation Gibraltar was a covert operation to spark an insurgency/rebellion in Kashmir, and not a conventional military assault to militarily take Kashmir.

If the former, then 'taking Kashmir' militarily was not the initial Pakistani objective. AFAIK, it was India that launched the first overt conventional military assaults across the ceasefire line in Kashmir, and then later opened another front on the International border when it came under severe pressure in Kashmir because of the Pakistani counterattack.

Given the above, your reasoning of why it was Pakistan that lost the war does not add up.

Sending thousands of Special Forces to Kashmir to instigate revolt and break lines of communication of the IA and sabotage vital installations goes beyond covert ops. It was a direct attempt to take Kashmir and considered as war by India. Any self respecting nation with a military would consider this an act of war.

As mentioned in one of the previous posts, how would the Indian military and government be sure that it would not be followed by a conventional attack from Pakistan. Obviously, Pakistan would not have been able to take Kashmir with such numbers, it was obvious that the conventional forces would enter when they expected IA would be bogged down in Kashmir.

Unfortunately, your generals and other politicians thought that 'Hindus' would not dare attack.

The result was a counter attack and had an objective-to foil Pakistan:
Kashmir is still in India is it not? I'd say that pretty well sums up Pakistan's attempt to wrest Kashmir.

All that 3 years after fighting a disastrous war with China.
 
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This does not invalidate the point I made that India had defeated Operation Gibraltar, which the article you posted points out was to stoke a rebellion in Kashmir, and then proceeds to launch a military offensive against Pakistan across the ceasefire line.

Since Op. Gib had been defeated, the point about Indian objectives in attacking Pakistani controlled Kashmir remains, and the rest of earlier comments follow from there.
Operation Gibraltar WAS defeated by launching offensive across the ceasefire line. Hajipir Pass and Neelam Valley were being used as launching pad for the infiltration. Although initial infiltration was defeated, there was absolutely no way of being certain that further infiltration, or so to say a Pakistani counter offensive, wouldn't follow the Indian offensive. Destroying the logistics base was therefore essential to ensure that such a counter offensive through further infiltration didn't happen. A justified military tactic.

From Indian point of view, the infiltration, i.e. Operation Gibraltar was an aggression against Indian interest. Therefore, India reserved the right to defend it's interest in any manner it saw appropriate.

So Whatever Indian objectives were after Op. Gibralter was defeated, they were not accomplished since India ended with little territory gained either across the ceasefire line or IB.
Indian objective was to throw the infiltrators back to where they came from and secure Kashmir. India was able to do that successfully.

True that India didn't end up possessing an insane amount of Pakistani territory and that's why I don't call it a decisive victory in lines of '71. However, India, being the defender, ending up with more territorial gain compared to its aggressor, Pakistan, will certainly constitute as a victory if victory is measured in terms of comparative territorial gains.
 
What did you do in the war, daddy?
Dangers of military myths




The official history confirms another great failing of the 1965 war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to provide a decisive edge on the battlefield or even match up to the Pakistanis


In a society where even the writing of ancient history is so politically contentious, it is difficult to expect a realistic appreciation of fairly recent wars. Culturally, we also confuse military science with soldierly heroism. We can spend all our time extolling our troops for the courage they showed in Kargil but avoid talking about what got them in such a near-impossible war in the first place. Even with our bigger wars, propaganda myths created in the course of the engagements are then perpetuated for decades. In the 22-day war in 1965, for example, as schoolchildren we were taught that the Pakistani pilots were so scared of the tiny Gnat that they fled the moment they spotted one. That it was because the then army chief, General J.N. Chowdhary, was such a world-famous hot-shot in tank warfare that the Pakistani armour came unstuck at Khem Karan and other graveyards of the Patton. That Lahore and Sialkot were almost sure to be in our bag if the war had gone on a few more days.

That is why it is refreshing that India’s own official history of the country’s first full-fledged modern war has been written with a degree of detachment. It confirms several widely held beliefs in the strategic community and described in the many books on that war. In India, the official history has followed close after the release of In the Line of Duty: A Soldier Remembers, the autobiography of Lt Gen Harbakhsh Singh, one of our tallest generals ever, professionally and physically, at 6-ft-2. As the western army commander during the 1965 war (there was no northern command then), he also led the operations in Kashmir and therefore controlled the entire war.

His revelations, read with his earlier War Despatches and now authenticated by the official history, are devastating. It is, for example, now confirmed that not only did Gen Chowdhury play a very small role in the entire campaign, he was so nervous as to be on the verge of losing half of Punjab to Pakistan, including the city of Amritsar. Harbakhsh describes, in clinical detail, how our own offensive in the Lahore sector had come unhinged. The general commanding the division on Ichchogil canal fled in panic, leaving his jeep, its wireless running and the briefcase containing sensitive documents that were then routinely read on Radio Pakistan during the war. Singh wanted to court martial him, Chowdhury let him get away with resignation.

But a bigger disaster struck a bit to the south where the other division cracked up in assault, just as it encountered a bit of resistance. Several infantry battalions, short on battle inoculation, deserted and Singh gives a hair-raising account – and confirmation of a long-debated rumour – that Chowdhury panicked so badly he ordered him to withdraw to a new defensive line behind the Beas, thereby conceding half of Punjab to Pakistan. Singh describes the conversation with Chowdhury at Ambala where he refused to carry out the order, asking his chief to either put it down in writing or visit the front and take charge of the battle. Chowdhury waffled even on that panicky decision, Singh’s artillery and some rag-tag armour lured the Pattons into soggy ground on a moonlit night and the result was the greatest escape to victory in our post-Independence military history. What was to be a spectacular Pakistani breakthrough right up
to Panipat became a great rout of its armour.

The official history confirms not just this but also another great failing of that war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to not only provide a decisive edge on the battlefield but to even match up to the Pakistanis. It did not participate in any of the big battles. Many of its attacks were casual, half-hearted, even suicidal, as the decision of opening the campaign with four Vampires, one of history’s first jets, made of plywood, to block the Pakistani advance in Chhamb. All four were shot, and IAF opened the campaign with a 0-4 deficit. Then followed a bizarre story of no communication between the army and the air force. The army apparently thought it could sort out the Pakistanis by itself. The air force thought it was fighting a war exclusively with the PAF.

There was evidently too little communication between the army, air force and the political leadership. The IAF, for example, was told to stay back in the hangars in the eastern sector even when the PAF launched withering attacks on Kalaikunda and Bagdogra. Even after the disastrous Chhamb engagement, the IAF was so casual as to leave a whole bunch of frontline aircraft exposed at Pathankot, within minutes of flying time from PAF bases, and the result was another disaster in a raid at dusk. The Pakistanis seemed to have such a free run they even shot down the Dakota carrying the then chief minister of Gujarat, Balwant Rai Mehta, deep inside our territory, at night.

Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated. But the fact remains that in 1965 the IAF failed to tilt the balance in any theatre of the war. Singh says the IAF was simply not prepared for war, physically or mentally. The IAF commanders from that period, including the then chief Arjan Singh, say the army never kept them in the loop. But the fact is that all of them, even the eastern and western command chiefs, were decorated after the war. There were no questions asked.

There weren’t any asked elsewhere either. Every single army general even remotely connected with the war effort was decorated, including the Strike Corps commander in the Sialkot sector who did not cover five miles in 15 days. Chowdhury himself was cast as some kind of a swadeshi Rommel, though he never got within shouting distance of the war. And even the then naval chief was decorated though his fleet remained firmly in harbour, failing to stir out even after the Pakistanis cockily pounded Dwarka.

The dangers in perpetuating mythologies built during a war into a kind of instant military history are obvious. It is impossible to first generously lionise and decorate people and to then hold them accountable for what they did wrong during a war. We obviously learnt some lessons from these in 1965 and the result was a decisive, premeditated campaign and victory in 1971. The key to that lightning campaign was total understanding between the army and the IAF. But if you look back on the way we once again rushed to hand out decorations post-Kargil and how closed we still are to the idea of finding out how on earth we let so many Pakistanis get so well entrenched on so much territory for so long, you wonder if the lessons of 1965 are so thoroughly forgotten that we are willing to make the same mistakes again.


1. This is 10 year old article.

2. Nowhere in India we taught in school about India Pakistan war victory in 1965.

3. So when we don't claim victory what type of myth busted?

4. Also, It does not proves that pakistan won the war in 1965.

5. 1965 was a tie, as we have already had a war with China and the economy and domestic conditions was also bad because of droughts etc.

6. So, in our worst period we have sustained a full fledged war with in 3 years, bad weather, drought etc. etc. this shows our courage, strength and capacity.
 
The 1965 Indo-Pakistani War was witness to the largest tank battle in military history since World War II. This battle lead to the creation of Patton Nagar (or Patton City) at the site of the battle viz., Khemkaran. This is because many Patton tanks fielded by the Pakistani forces were either captured or destroyed at the scene.

Some pics of 1965 war

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People visiting huge number of destroyed and captured Pakistani Patton Tanks



Lt. Col. Hari Singh of the India's 18th Cavalry posing outside a captured Pakistani police station (Barkee) in Lahore District.



Indian troops in Dograi village on the Ichhogil Canal, Lahore
 
@justin before you post any pics please check the following link it has pics from both sides already posted!!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/20852-some-rare-old-pictures-1965-war.html

I agree, pictures is really no way of debating anything, yes they can be used to substantiate an argument, but the argument needs to be articulated well first.

For example, when its known that both sides held opposition land, what purpose does pictures serve? Infact its these kinds of pics that have led to the claims of victory in the first place without analysing the military objectives.
 
Very few Pakistanis would argue that Pakistan lost the 1971 war, though the details of the events around 71 continue to be argued.

Maybe even 71 wud have been argued, if Pakistanis wud not have required a passport to travel to "East Pakistan".
No new country created after 48, 65 or Kargil, so one can always claim a resounding victory isnt it? :-)
 
The aim was to send in a few thousand infiltrators to spark a rebellion in J&K, and force the GoI back to the negotiating table, not an armed military invasion to conquer the territory.

Agnostic Muslim,
Can you name a few countries, if you are aware of, that would not consider another country infiltrating a few thousand armed folks within its territory as a military invasion ?

And I am not talking about any drone attacks but real "foots" on the ground here! :-)
 
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