Musharraf ruined PAF project, says ex-air chief
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BaburCM
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Regardless, the Swedish systems are very well suited for PAF. They are superior and will serve excellently against any foe. I don't understand all the fuss. Remember that the Indians are going for a very advanced platform. Our Swedish platform is very well suited to cancel out that threat. It will be one of our most advanced and high tech platforms inducted in the air force up-to-date. It will take time for the Chinese systems to mature. The Swedish deal is always favourable. I think that I don't need to mention the reputation of the advanced high-tech Swedish electronics industry. Pakistan shouldn't waste any opportunity in getting Western tech where possible. In fact, as far as I see it, the Chinese systems will even benefit from the Swedish ToT. Having additional Chinese systems to curb cost wouldn't be such a bad idea. PAF could provide critical input to bring the Chinese systems at par with the Swedish counterpart. The Chinese are learning and maturing very fast. Chinese defence systems are going to become mainstream for Pakistan. We have every stake in Chinese defence developments.
Whether kickbacks were involved from any side is a different matter. Corruption in such multi-billion deals is widespread and a country like Pakistan isn't immune. At least, we shouldn't have any expectations, especially in the case of Pakistan where corruption is part and parcel of every day life. There is no accountability. We should be glad and appreciate that such an advanced platform will complement and strengthen our air force.
Whether kickbacks were involved from any side is a different matter. Corruption in such multi-billion deals is widespread and a country like Pakistan isn't immune. At least, we shouldn't have any expectations, especially in the case of Pakistan where corruption is part and parcel of every day life. There is no accountability. We should be glad and appreciate that such an advanced platform will complement and strengthen our air force.
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x_man
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Majority of military deals especially the ones in which aircrafts are involved always attract many parties. There are various cuts / shares which are perfectly legit and there are also many that are dealt under the radar BUT everyone involved knows that whats going on and who is getting how much. No one is clean in this regard, I am sure everyone had their due share.
But the question is that after getting his own cut in this deal, why ACM (Retd.) K. Saadat is trying to blow trumpet against another retired General in the media? Is he craving for some attention or just had a conscious awakening attack or perhaps pissed at his lower share in the deal or he has some personal grudge against general or someone provoked him to speak out in media OR he is just being an idiot?
What pisses me most is that despite such a long illustrious service these generals ( K,Saadat, Jamshed Gulzar, Hammed Gul and likes) think that once out of uniform they are no more liable to the well being and honour of their respective services and country. Its a shame that they forget all the oaths they took while in service and involve themselves in such cat fights while behaving like jerks after retirement.
But the question is that after getting his own cut in this deal, why ACM (Retd.) K. Saadat is trying to blow trumpet against another retired General in the media? Is he craving for some attention or just had a conscious awakening attack or perhaps pissed at his lower share in the deal or he has some personal grudge against general or someone provoked him to speak out in media OR he is just being an idiot?
What pisses me most is that despite such a long illustrious service these generals ( K,Saadat, Jamshed Gulzar, Hammed Gul and likes) think that once out of uniform they are no more liable to the well being and honour of their respective services and country. Its a shame that they forget all the oaths they took while in service and involve themselves in such cat fights while behaving like jerks after retirement.
adnan1479
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as PAFAce said -"we need the Chinese much more than we need the Swedes, for defence and much more. "
there is a flip side to it: how much would the swedes need us?
what is there to say that if the americans decide to pull the mat from under our feet, they would stop the swedes from further support of the awacs program?
the chinese awacs would at least always be available and not under any western pressure. its always good to have a backup system.
besides the saab-2000 combat software codes would be compromised even before our boys use the onboard toilet
(official note: saab 2000 DOES have toilet - - -Phalcon however does NOT-however the Mark-1 disposable dhoti is standard issue to all palcon crews of the IAF)
there is a flip side to it: how much would the swedes need us?
what is there to say that if the americans decide to pull the mat from under our feet, they would stop the swedes from further support of the awacs program?
the chinese awacs would at least always be available and not under any western pressure. its always good to have a backup system.
besides the saab-2000 combat software codes would be compromised even before our boys use the onboard toilet
(official note: saab 2000 DOES have toilet - - -Phalcon however does NOT-however the Mark-1 disposable dhoti is standard issue to all palcon crews of the IAF)
AoA
x_man
Corruption in military deals in Pakistan like everywhere else is nothing new. But if the ACM (Retd.) K. Saadat statement is correct then people of Pakistan have the right to know after all its their money.Whether the officer is retired or not is irrelavant. They took the oath to honour their services but not the corruption in it.
From your post it seems you are saying that all corruption in the military
should be brushed under carpet.If that is the case shouldn't it be applicable to rest of the country too.Hey then even Politicians should be ok too.
x_man
Corruption in military deals in Pakistan like everywhere else is nothing new. But if the ACM (Retd.) K. Saadat statement is correct then people of Pakistan have the right to know after all its their money.Whether the officer is retired or not is irrelavant. They took the oath to honour their services but not the corruption in it.
From your post it seems you are saying that all corruption in the military
should be brushed under carpet.If that is the case shouldn't it be applicable to rest of the country too.Hey then even Politicians should be ok too.
niaz
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I have very low opinion of Ansar Abbasi He is nothing but publicity seeking journalist. The allegation of malafide intentions without clearly saying what he means is a typical journalistic spin.
Looking at the whole thing realistically. Grafts/bribes are paid mainly by Western companies to increase their sale / improve profits. The deal for Saab was between a company (SAAB) and the PAF. Therefore reducing Saab order would mean reducing the commission of the Saab agent, thus reducing the amount that agent would share with the people in power.
Chinese Defense deals are mostly gov't to gov't affairs with very little money changing hands.
I have no doubt that Musharaf was pro Chinese and would have agreed to partially finance Chinese AWACS purchase by taking funds out of Saab deal. IMO the whole article is written with malafide intentions. To hell with Ansar Abbasi.
Looking at the whole thing realistically. Grafts/bribes are paid mainly by Western companies to increase their sale / improve profits. The deal for Saab was between a company (SAAB) and the PAF. Therefore reducing Saab order would mean reducing the commission of the Saab agent, thus reducing the amount that agent would share with the people in power.
Chinese Defense deals are mostly gov't to gov't affairs with very little money changing hands.
I have no doubt that Musharaf was pro Chinese and would have agreed to partially finance Chinese AWACS purchase by taking funds out of Saab deal. IMO the whole article is written with malafide intentions. To hell with Ansar Abbasi.
x_man
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If Kaleem Saadat thinks that there was corruption involved and he has a case against Musharraf, then he should take it up thru proper channel and by all means bring Mushrarraf to justice in the court of law. I surely will be with Saadat on it.
BUT he will never do it. He (KS) knows that it will only open the can of worms that might consume him too. A person of his stature should either refrain from such lame and phusphussi statements in media or if he considers himself really clean then show some balls and take up the case against perpetrators thru proper channel.
qsaark
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This is not entirely true. The Kickbacks are paid through the extra money that is made from over-invoicing. For example I want to buy a computer. The market price of the computer is $500/-. I cut a deal with the supplier that I'll make my institution buy the computer for $900/- provided I am paid 50% share i.e. $200/- from the over-invoiced price (extra $400/-).
Anyway, this matter must be taken to the court. Whoever (Abbasi, Saadat or Musharraf) is responsible must be tried and sentenced accordingly so such things don't happen in the future.
At any rate these things are not un-common. Heavy kickbacks were paid in Agosta 90B and Eridan class Mine Hunter vessels (Admiral Mansur ul Ahaque, Commodore Shahid, and Captain Liaquat Ali Malik, Admiral A U Khan and Rear Admiral Mujtaba), 36 Mirage V/III by SEGAM (DG, DP, Rear Admiral Saeed Akhter), and 1995 army purchase of 3700 Land Rover Jeeps are only few examples.
Note: It is interesting though that Ansar Abbasi's claims or slanders (if you want to call it that) have never been challenged in the courts. If he is such publicity seeking journalist and a black mailer, why law suits are not filed against him for slander?
At any rate, the intension of posting this news was not to discuss the corruption in Pakistan Armed Forces, it is not a secret! The whole idea was to discuss the GoP's decision and merits of the Chinese AWACS versus the SAAB Erieye and which system is more suited for the PAF in short as well as long term. So few technical details are known about the Chinese system, that a comparison would be very difficult if not impossible.
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Would you still go for one system if you knew that:
-It maybe bugged
-It maybe never get into your hands
-It is damn expensive
-You might get no parts in the future
I do not think that ex ACM said this but I agree that it was wise to bet on more baskets... We have seen how much the PAF presented with outdated Mirages, F7's and world oldest F16's... If we listen to only one party then we never would have a nave, army or weapons like Babur, Ra'ad etc etc... Besides that this is the moment for PAF to absorb as much tech as possible before moving to slef reliance.
-It maybe bugged
-It maybe never get into your hands
-It is damn expensive
-You might get no parts in the future
I do not think that ex ACM said this but I agree that it was wise to bet on more baskets... We have seen how much the PAF presented with outdated Mirages, F7's and world oldest F16's... If we listen to only one party then we never would have a nave, army or weapons like Babur, Ra'ad etc etc... Besides that this is the moment for PAF to absorb as much tech as possible before moving to slef reliance.
Another part of the equation is the J-10 or FC-20.
While the JF-17s are in our hand, we have all the source codes to program and re-program them and maybe they will end up using western equipment, etc. The FC-20 might not end up being linked to an Erieye, so the Chinese AWACS are more of a necessity.
Either way, for a sanction prone country like pakistan, having diversity is an essential requirement even if it means more headache or slightly less capabilities.
The article by Ansar Abbasi/Kaleem is very unprofessional to say the least. Even if Musharraf was favoring the Chinese buy, there is no proof of any monetary kickbacks received by him to say any 'malafide' intentions were there. Even if every word said by Kaleem is true, it can at best be called an error of judgement rather than kickbacks or malafide intentions unless either one of them (abbasi or sadat) has any proof of any monetary malpractice.
While the JF-17s are in our hand, we have all the source codes to program and re-program them and maybe they will end up using western equipment, etc. The FC-20 might not end up being linked to an Erieye, so the Chinese AWACS are more of a necessity.
Either way, for a sanction prone country like pakistan, having diversity is an essential requirement even if it means more headache or slightly less capabilities.
The article by Ansar Abbasi/Kaleem is very unprofessional to say the least. Even if Musharraf was favoring the Chinese buy, there is no proof of any monetary kickbacks received by him to say any 'malafide' intentions were there. Even if every word said by Kaleem is true, it can at best be called an error of judgement rather than kickbacks or malafide intentions unless either one of them (abbasi or sadat) has any proof of any monetary malpractice.
Arsalan
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what a shame,
this reporter just to make his name prominent has flown a baseless argument!!
i wish some one can tell him that we must necessarily diversify our imports just in order to avoid problems if we ever face sanctions!!
these are the people spreading negative mentality in our nation!!
this reporter just to make his name prominent has flown a baseless argument!!
i wish some one can tell him that we must necessarily diversify our imports just in order to avoid problems if we ever face sanctions!!
these are the people spreading negative mentality in our nation!!
All-Green
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If something was ruining PAF plans and with direct consequence compromising the national security of Pakistan, then what would have been the honorable thing for the air chief to do?
Certainly, mudslinging after retirement does not fall in the category of an honorable action!
And Ansar Abbasi is a true circus artist...how he portrayed the Marriott tragedy to be the consequence of American marines and their equipment was truly pathetic and made the nation confused instead of focusing their rage on the Terrorists....
On a side note...
There was a time in our army when even a junior lieutenant or a soldier would speak up to the commanding officer if there was a military error in the orders, this was there in our army till 70's.
Sadly after Zia era such things are now unthinkable as yes man culture was promoted to the extent that even generals keep their lips sealed in front of flawed orders and strategies.
Where are the hardcore professionals who can make a stand for principles?
An incident to quote....
A friend of mine was an ADC to a general who threw a dinner to a certain corps commander, the esteemed general was standing like an orderly presenting dishes to the corps commander.
The corps commander's ADC remarked to my friend that thank god your general does not have a tail...
Please note that my family has served in this Army for generations and still does...i have no ill intention towards our military which i have a lot of respect and love for...however there have been a lot of yes men in the past who were given priority over some hard, plain soldiers known for being blunt...these yes men have always been men of principles....after retirement!!!
Certainly, mudslinging after retirement does not fall in the category of an honorable action!
And Ansar Abbasi is a true circus artist...how he portrayed the Marriott tragedy to be the consequence of American marines and their equipment was truly pathetic and made the nation confused instead of focusing their rage on the Terrorists....
On a side note...
There was a time in our army when even a junior lieutenant or a soldier would speak up to the commanding officer if there was a military error in the orders, this was there in our army till 70's.
Sadly after Zia era such things are now unthinkable as yes man culture was promoted to the extent that even generals keep their lips sealed in front of flawed orders and strategies.
Where are the hardcore professionals who can make a stand for principles?
An incident to quote....
A friend of mine was an ADC to a general who threw a dinner to a certain corps commander, the esteemed general was standing like an orderly presenting dishes to the corps commander.
The corps commander's ADC remarked to my friend that thank god your general does not have a tail...
Please note that my family has served in this Army for generations and still does...i have no ill intention towards our military which i have a lot of respect and love for...however there have been a lot of yes men in the past who were given priority over some hard, plain soldiers known for being blunt...these yes men have always been men of principles....after retirement!!!
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