Musharraf has misspoken again

[Awesome]

Do you have any other choice?

Yeah... Of course.

If his allies don't win elections 2007, they CAN evoke the NSC and with the majority vote, ask him to step down.

So we have choices, but nothing good like Musharraf.

 

[blain2]

Do you have any other choice?

We may not have a choice, but what leads the country currently satisfys most Pakistanis.

democracy is not the panacea for all problems. We have had issues with democracy too...its growing pains with democracy for Pakistan and democracy as practiced in the west or even in India may not be the best solution for Pakistan.

Who dare initiate a corruption enquiry against Mushraff,wait till he is killed or overturned.
And what corruption enquiry is there against Manmohan singh?

It is widely known inside Pakistan that Musharraf himself is not corrupt. Like India, Pakistan too does have its bad apples but Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz have been spared the personal corruption charges. Incriminations after one leaves is a common thing in South Asia where politicians try to gain mileage out of corruption charges so what you say here applies to politicians on both sides of the divide....Narsimha Rao, Rajiv Gandhi NS, BB all have had their share of doubtful dealings.

Musharraf is liked by a wide margin in Pakistan. This is a fact regardless of what people in India may say or think. He is pragmatic and at the same time flexible...he cares for Pakistan and is trying his best to do good for the country. He has his detractors as there should always be...but in all of my years watching Pakistan, none of the other leaders of Pakistan have inspired me as much as Musharraf..(once I was inspired by BB but that was rather short-lived and I should say here that I have never been a fan of PPP).

I have certain disagreements with some of Musharraf's policies but given the circumstances, I think he is trying to do the best he can (which in some cases is to the detriment of the Indians so I understand your obvious dislike for him as well).

 

[Neo]

Mushy has sold out Pakistan webby. He is a clone of Zia. He will do anything to sit on the President's chair. Ultimately the sole loser is Pakistan's aam-janta.

John,

Surprised how ill informed you are if you really think that Musharraf is anything like Zia, he's the opposit!

Zia was a fundamental islamist, Musharraf is an enlightend moderate.

Zia would have destroyed the country if he stayed longer, Musharraf survived six assasination attemts from those who want to destroy the country and he's not affraid to die for the country.

Zia sucked in politics, ruled the country by force. Musharraf is elected and has restored democracy and freedom of speech and media to unprecedented levels even compared to civil governments.

Zia brought Pakistan to bankcruptcy, Musharraf put us back on the world map. We're stronger than ever before..

Zia brought Talibanism to Pakistan, Musharraf is fighting to eliminate extremists.

And the list could go on and on.

Basically, Musharraf is nothing like Zia. He's God's gift to Pakistan, Zia will be remembered as a curse..

 

[Neo]

Sad Pakistan has such a leaders.

Proud to have such leaders.
Atleast we don't elect gangsters.

 

[john_holmes]

John,

Surprised how ill informed you are if you really think that Musharraf is anything like Zia, he's the opposit!

Neo, Zia was a fundamentalist, Mushy is also a fundamentalist but in the garb of a moderate.
Zia was a fundamental islamist, Musharraf is an enlightend moderate.

Zia would have destroyed the country if he stayed longer, Musharraf survived six assasination attemts from those who want to destroy the country and he's not affraid to die for the country.

Lets compare - Zia encouraged cronysm, nepotism and corruption. Musharraf has also done the same. Transparency international has already pointed out that corruption has been the highest during the military regime.

Surviving assasination attempts - Pakistan is full of terrorists. It is experiencing blow-back.

Zia sucked in politics, ruled the country by force. Musharraf is elected and has restored democracy and freedom of speech and media to unprecedented levels even compared to civil governments.

Zia was an extremely intelligent and cunning president. He ruled by giving the hardcore-wahhabi cults the freedom. He institutionalised Islam in governance.

Musharraf is doing the same with MMA. Regarding media freedom, the press in Pakistan knows better than to create noise. Many journalists have disappeared. The papers do not print anything critical of the military regime.
Zia brought Pakistan to bankcruptcy, Musharraf put us back on the world map. We're stronger than ever before..

Zia brought Talibanism to Pakistan, Musharraf is fighting to eliminate extremists.

Zia did not bring Taliban. He bascially rented out Pakistan as the launching pad for US forces/Afghan/Pakistani mujahideen forces. He was paid handsomely too. He was a better negotiator than Mushy. He ensured the pakistan got F-16 fighters, imported missiles and nuclear tech from China and North Korea, almost had US convinced to give AWACs. What has Mushy done ?? All we hear is this agreement, that agreement. He sold out Pakistan at one lousy phone call from Colin Powell. He has curtailed the nuke program, allowed India to fence the border, stopped infiltration. Many Pakistani citizens have been killed by their own Army. Innocent citizens have been kidnapped and sold off as bounty to US. The list could go on too.
And the list could go on and on.

Basically, Musharraf is nothing like Zia. He's God's gift to Pakistan, Zia will be remembered as a curse..

History always repeats Neo, if you chose to ignore it. Zia was also admired by that generation, now you are cursing him. What guarantee that your next generation will not spit at Musharraf ?

 

[john_holmes]

Proud to have such leaders.
Atleast we don't elect gangsters.

 

[blain2]

Neo, Zia was a fundamentalist, Mushy is also a fundamentalist but in the garb of a moderate.
Zia was a fundamental islamist, Musharraf is an enlightend moderate.

There is so much Indian propaganda in your posts that I do not know where to begin to dispell the many ill-conceived notions in your posts.

Instead of using in vogue terms like "fundamentalist", can you explain to me what is a fundamentalist and once you have done so, please try to fit Musharraf into that mould. At that point in time, many of us can explain to you the difference between a fundamentalist and Musharraf.

Lets compare - Zia encouraged cronysm, nepotism and corruption. Musharraf has also done the same. Transparency international has already pointed out that corruption has been the highest during the military regime.

Hmm really? Now let's see...TI has a corruption index based on "perception". There is no real data that backs up the index that TI puts out...its simply a perception of corruption as it appears in the minds of people...so admittedly Pakistan takes a black eye on it (btw, India's ranking is nothing to be proud of being such a big, transparent democratic country), but how does that implicate Musharraf? Yes there is corruption in many parts of the govt...only a child would expect that Pakistan would suddenly become the most transparently clean place to do business. It takes time, legal work, process and reforms to be put in place, all the things that Musharraf and the PM have been working on vigorously over the past 5 years....once in place, things are bound to improve..an example is the telecom sector alone...once the hallmark of incompetence and corruption in Pakistan...we de-regulation and reforms by the current govt, in Asia, Pakistan offers the most transparent and fastest time to market access for investors. (On this count, we are well ahead of India).

Surviving assasination attempts - Pakistan is full of terrorists. It is experiencing blow-back.

Pakistan's blow-back started in 1979 with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (shamefully India was one of the only countries outside of Warsaw Pact that supported this naked aggression) and not in a vacuum. Our freedom fighters are your terrorist..that is fine and we can live with it because as history shows, ones hero is always somebody elses terrorist....its just a matter of who gets to write history to set the record "straight" (pun intended). Extremists exist on both sides of the border so on this one count, India is not any better off.

Zia was an extremely intelligent and cunning president.

As should all the leaders be...cunning is an adversarial word...one that you would find a lot of Pakistanis using for *all* of the Indian leaders as well...Musharraf is just as intelligent and tactful. Both qualities that can come in handy.

Musharraf is doing the same with MMA. Regarding media freedom, the press in Pakistan knows better than to create noise. Many journalists have disappeared. The papers do not print anything critical of the military regime.

Musharraf is doing with the MMA what any other leader would do to form a govt...I do not see you being ashamed about having a religiously motivated party like BJP ruling India so why would you cry about a Pakistani leader working with an Islamist party??? MMA and its sub parties are an essential part of the Pakistani political landscape.

Don't even get me started on the media freedom and claiming to know about the situation there better than us Pakistanis please. There is so much vitriol written about Musharraf in both the urdu and english media that it gets boring....lets also make a distinction...criticising of the military is a different thing than criticising Musharraf....the latter goes on all the time, criticising the former is not appropriate since its a national institution and a very good one at that....professionally, people of Pakistan have no issues with the military..its the political dabbling and for this, Musharraf is not spared...(Ahsan Saleem Hayat (VCoAS) and his boys should be spared and rightly so as well since they have nothing to do with Politics).

Zia did not bring Taliban. He bascially rented out Pakistan as the launching pad for US forces/Afghan/Pakistani mujahideen forces. He was paid handsomely too. He was a better negotiator than Mushy. He ensured the pakistan got F-16 fighters, imported missiles and nuclear tech from China and North Korea, almost had US convinced to give AWACs. What has Mushy done ?? All we hear is this agreement, that agreement. He sold out Pakistan at one lousy phone call from Colin Powell. He has curtailed the nuke program, allowed India to fence the border, stopped infiltration. Many Pakistani citizens have been killed by their own Army. Innocent citizens have been kidnapped and sold off as bounty to US. The list could go on too.
And the list could go on and on.

Musharraf has done more than Zia and under more demanding circumstances. Musharraf has delivered on more than what Zia got....F-16s etc., are all meaning less in contrast to the economic turnaround that has happened during his time....F-16s and the other stuff is coming nonetheless.

How did he sell Pakistan out with one lousy call (I am starting to think that this effort to debate with you will be a waste for some reason )

He saved Pakistan by joining the US GWOT. As a leader he saw that there was nothing left with the Taliban alliance so he gave up on it after trying to convince them. He used the circumstances to align Pakistani interests with those of the US...on many fronts he has succeeded, on some he has failed..but the net of it is that Pakistan is in a more tenable position today.

Curtailed the nuclear programe??? Hmm this one has been pulled out of where now? Please lets not take to assumptions (ill-founded ones at that too). Pakistani citizens killed in the PA action was indeed unfortunate...but such a thing is bound to happen when the writ of govt has to be established. On this one count, I myself am not happy, but the other choices are even harder and even more indiscriminate than the PA going after some groups.

History always repeats Neo, if you chose to ignore it. Zia was also admired by that generation, now you are cursing him. What guarantee that your next generation will not spit at Musharraf ?

[/QUOTE]


Zia was admired and still is for many things he did...primarily the leadership he showed to lead the efforts for Afghan Jihad...he saved Pakistan from the Soviet domination...as always there are repercussions of it and that is fine...Pakistan survives today for the better through these tribulations....yes Musharraf's policies will also have some reverberations after he leaves but do you think that this is not the norm? Leaders will make calls and some of those will be good and some just trash, but Musharraf would not be worth his salt if being the leader of Pakistan, he did not make those calls and let others do it for him.

I pray that Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz continue their work with evermore dedication and zeal...Pakistan can use their leadership for another 5 years easily. As a Pakistani, they have my vote of confidence.

:flag:

 

[john_holmes]

This one article explains a lot -

The unhappy province

The disturbing portrait has it that 59,000 of the 84,000 wretched souls, bona fide citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, with its nuclear arsenal, its mighty army of half a million men, its banks dispensing hefty loans for cars, weddings, jewellry and air-conditioners, are women and children. Of the thousands of children, a large number are so acutely malnourished that it is feared that they will die without immediate medical attention. One foreign observer has remarked, according to the CSM report, that it is a “crime against humanity situation.”

Helping the government dig itself deeper into a hole was the statement made without thinking, obviously, in view of the later development, by presidential spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan who claimed the UNICEF report to be “untrue” as most of the displaced persons “have gone back.” Disturbing also are reports by local aid workers that military trucks were used to round up the displaced men, women and children and hide them before they could get to them. According to the CSM, last week “the government abruptly cancelled a planned tour to Balochistan by a visiting delegation from the European Commission.”

This is all more than merely disturbing — the lying and the deception by both provincial and federal governments. Political oppression is the name of the game played in Balochistan, and on this score the governments are now trying to cover up their sins by appealing for help to save lives. It is indicative of the failure of the federal government, the cabinet of 80-plus, headed by an astute banker, that it has neither the means nor the wherewithal to feed 84,000 starving citizens

Disappearing citizens

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan is now working on a list of what is known as the ‘disappeared’ of Pakistan, citizens who are considered a political nuisance, who have been arrested and taken to undisclosed locations. So far, the HRCP can confirm that 242 men have simply disappeared since 2000, 170 of whom hail from the province of Balochistan. To name but a handful of the more prominent Baloch ‘activists’ who have simply disappeared into thin air : Muneer Mengal, Gorem Saleh, Raja Ahmed Khan, Hafiz Saeed ur Rehman Bangalzai, and Ali Asghar Bangalzai. Now, apart from the suffering caused to these men and the other 237, one must also take into account the impact on the families of ‘enforced disappearances’ (as such victims are known by Amnesty International). The families and dependents who have no idea of the whereabouts of the disappeared, or as to whether they are alive or dead, are also victims. Enforced disappearances take a heavy toll on parents, wives, children and other relatives. They suffer extreme anxiety, and are frustrated in the face of pretended official ignorance, contradictions and even harassment.

To quote from a September 2006 Amnesty International report on Pakistan and its dismissal of human rights : “To be unaware of the fate and/or whereabouts of a family member for a prolonged period of time and to fear for his or her life and safety may in itself amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The knowledge that torture is routinely used in Pakistan adds to the dear of the relatives.” There is also economic hardship involved, for when the main earners are victims of enforced disappearances this places a heavy burden on the families left behind.

One more link

Above the law?

Most of the protestors in Rawalpindi, including the young man who was publicly humiliated, are believed to be relatives of ‘missing’ persons who allegedly have links with religious or militant organisations. It is this connection, real or otherwise, that gives them the support of religio-political parties and, perhaps, the wherewithal to be able to congregate within a few hundred yards of GHQ and make their voices heard where it counts most. Not so fortunate or organised are the family members of those who have disappeared without a trace in Balochistan and Sindh, ostensibly on account of their ties with nationalist political parties. Among those picked up are many low-level activists and others whose ideological bent is unacceptable to the establishment. Irrespective of their crime, the rule of law demands that charges be framed and the accused be produced before a court. Instead, they have joined the growing ranks of the ‘disappeared’.

The personal liberty of every citizen may be recognised by the Constitution, but the reality on the ground is strikingly at odds with the law. The phenomenon of prolonged ‘enforced disappearances’ — usually associated with brutal dictatorship, not democracy — came to the fore shortly after Pakistan’s enlistment in the war on terror and picked up pace following the insurgency in Balochistan. The HRCP has verified 170 such cases of involuntary detention in the last two years, and there is no knowing how many others have gone undocumented. Forced into action by the Supreme Court, the government has owned up to the detention of a few persons of whose whereabouts it previously claimed to have no knowledge. Some in Pakistan clearly consider themselves to be above the law.

 

[john_holmes]

There is so much Indian propaganda in your posts that I do not know where to begin to dispell the many ill-conceived notions in your posts.

Instead of using in vogue terms like "fundamentalist", can you explain to me what is a fundamentalist and once you have done so, please try to fit Musharraf into that mould. At that point in time, many of us can explain to you the difference between a fundamentalist and Musharraf.

Musharraf is using MMA to further his agenda and to gain legitmacy. You can beat around the bush that does not change the fact.

Hmm really? Now let's see...TI has a corruption index based on "perception". There is no real data that backs up the index that TI puts out...its simply a perception of corruption as it appears in the minds of people...so admittedly Pakistan takes a black eye on it (btw, India's ranking is nothing to be proud of being such a big, transparent democratic country), but how does that implicate Musharraf? Yes there is corruption in many parts of the govt...only a child would expect that Pakistan would suddenly become the most transparently clean place to do business. It takes time, legal work, process and reforms to be put in place, all the things that Musharraf and the PM have been working on vigorously over the past 5 years....once in place, things are bound to improve..an example is the telecom sector alone...once the hallmark of incompetence and corruption in Pakistan...we de-regulation and reforms by the current govt, in Asia, Pakistan offers the most transparent and fastest time to market access for investors. (On this count, we are well ahead of India).

Why compare Pakistan with India ? Pakistan considers itself Arabbee right ??

On the other hand, how many MNCs have made investment in Pakistan ?

Money talks, show me the figures.

Pakistan's blow-back started in 1979 with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (shamefully India was one of the only countries outside of Warsaw Pact that supported this naked aggression) and not in a vacuum. Our freedom fighters are your terrorist..that is fine and we can live with it because as history shows, ones hero is always somebody elses terrorist....its just a matter of who gets to write history to set the record "straight" (pun intended). Extremists exist on both sides of the border so on this one count, India is not any better off.

Did India invite Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan ? NO

Did India provide bases to US to throw SU out ? NO

Who provided the services for a hefty sum without thinking about the consequences ? Pakistan

Musharraf is doing with the MMA what any other leader would do to form a govt...I do not see you being ashamed about having a religiously motivated party like BJP ruling India so why would you cry about a Pakistani leader working with an Islamist party??? MMA and its sub parties are an essential part of the Pakistani political landscape.

Don't even get me started on the media freedom and claiming to know about the situation there better than us Pakistanis please. There is so much vitriol written about Musharraf in both the urdu and english media that it gets boring....lets also make a distinction...criticising of the military is a different thing than criticising Musharraf....the latter goes on all the time, criticising the former is not appropriate since its a national institution and a very good one at that....professionally, people of Pakistan have no issues with the military..its the political dabbling and for this, Musharraf is not spared...(Ahsan Saleem Hayat (VCoAS) and his boys should be spared and rightly so as well since they have nothing to do with Politics).

Really, facts speak for themselves. Check the edit in Dawn and the columns I have given links to.

Musharraf has done more than Zia and under more demanding circumstances. Musharraf has delivered on more than what Zia got....F-16s etc., are all meaning less in contrast to the economic turnaround that has happened during his time....F-16s and the other stuff is coming nonetheless.

How did he sell Pakistan out with one lousy call (I am starting to think that this effort to debate with you will be a waste for some reason )

He saved Pakistan by joining the US GWOT. As a leader he saw that there was nothing left with the Taliban alliance so he gave up on it after trying to convince them. He used the circumstances to align Pakistani interests with those of the US...on many fronts he has succeeded, on some he has failed..but the net of it is that Pakistan is in a more tenable position today.

Curtailed the nuclear programe??? Hmm this one has been pulled out of where now? Please lets not take to assumptions (ill-founded ones at that too). Pakistani citizens killed in the PA action was indeed unfortunate...but such a thing is bound to happen when the writ of govt has to be established. On this one count, I myself am not happy, but the other choices are even harder and even more indiscriminate than the PA going after some groups.

US and Pakistan Army are killing its own citizens. If you cannot take care of your own people, what gives you the credibility of talking to protect Kashmiris from the evil Indian army ?

 

[john_holmes]

The great telecom revolution Blain-janab ??

‘Billions lost through opaque privatisations’

By Fida Hussain

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has lost billions of rupees through opaque privatisations that are a result of an ineffective system put in place to provide protection against losses in the privatisation process, according to an analysis in a booklet of the Friedrich Naumann Stiftung (FNS).

The report authored by Syed Mohammad Ali, Gulmina Bilal and Dr Khalil Ahmad – which includes papers on privatisations in Pakistan – criticises Pakistan for its privatisation system, saying privatisation means breaking monopolies, not creating them. It says that Pakistan has “a lot to learn” before it could benefit from privatisation.

It says there has been widespread concern over the Pakistan Steel Mills Corporation’s (PSMC) privatisation deal secured by the Privatisation Commission (PC). The commission kept reiterating that privatisation ventures should be carried out in a transparent manner, but the entire process for the PSMC deal was completed in a single day, the report notes, saying that the Council of Common Interests (CCI) has been unable to prevent “evidently bad deals”, as in the case of the PSMC.

The report says that although federal investigation agencies are authorised to question sale prices, their lack of specialised privatisation training has made this provision “meaningless”.

It says there has been inadequate public dissemination of information, resulting in social mobilisation against privatisation, which seems to be stopping, or at least delaying, the sale of several public companies. However, the Privatisation Commission blamed those opposed to the privatisation of the United Bank Limited (UBL) for the delay in completing the deal.

A similar case was that of the Pakistan Telecommunications Company Limited (PTCL), and there were strong reservations over the delay in the privatisation of the Pakistan State Oil (PSO).

A closely-guarded and revised privatisation agreement with the UAE-based Etisalat, which now runs the PTCL, allegedly caused a loss of billions of rupees to the national exchequer, according to the report, which says the deal offered “unprecedented long-term concessions” to the buyer, in conflict with Article 30 of the Public Procurement Rules 2004. “A basic question that arises is why has the agreement been kept such a closely guarded secret?” questions the report. “Shouldn’t at least some parameters of the deal be made public? PTCL has been the highest profit-earning state-owned company with real estates worth billions of rupees across the country, including commercial buildings, residential colonies, and telephone exchanges. What does the agreement say about them?”

The report recommends that an absolutely transparent process be put in place, with full legal safeguards and watertight procedures, otherwise valuable public assets would be suspected of being sold unfairly. Excessive litigation and agitations have hindered the privatisation process in Pakistan, it says.

Also essential to the success of privatisation ventures is the deregulation of the overall economy and the removal of unnecessary restrictions currently facing industrial enterprises.

“Privatization should therefore be part of a process to strengthen the private sector by giving it assets as well as improving the regulatory framework for their operation.”

 

[john_holmes]

Musharraf - Paindabad.

Media freedom - what is that ???



Missing justice

In the face of all the loud claims of progress on the human rights front, if there is any doubt about the limits to freedom in Pakistan today, one needs to look no further than the treatment meted out by the authorities to the protesting friends and relatives of the 'missing' in Rawalpindi on Thursday. That the demonstration was attacked, people beaten and picked up by the police is damning evidence, if there was need for any more, that, despite the claims of enlightenment by our military, political and bureaucratic masters, there continues to be a clear absence of justice in our country. If pictures are worth a thousand words, the photograph of a young demonstrator being stripped and beaten by the police, appearing on the front pages of the national press, is a dissertation on the disregard for human dignity and justice in Pakistan.

Aptly entitled a "Freedom Walk," the peaceful demonstration, made up of a symphony of emotions, ranging from anger to anguish, aimed to hand over a supplication to the army headquarters, GHQ, pleading for their loved ones, missing for extended periods of time, to be released. That these missing people are believed to be in the custody of one or another security or intelligence agency, such an endeavour merits at least some respect and consideration. Yet, the authorities deployed swaths of police and law enforcement agencies in an effort to disperse the understandably emotional crowd. After all, the mental turmoil associated with losing a loved one and not even knowing their fate is reason enough to demand help from the very people who take solemn oaths to protect the citizens of this country. Keeping in mind that individual efforts by aggrieved friends and families have led to nothing, with the authorities remaining silent and non-compliant, one cannot blame these people for taking to the streets. In fact, it is truly admirable that they have not yet been driven to violence and settled, instead, for a humble and peaceful demonstration to achieve their aims. Are they not entitled to this basic right, which is provided to them by our Constitution? The reality, as it appears, is that the authorities are averse to such demands.

As things stand today, there seems to be little room for the truth in certain matters. Those who dare to speak out risk being put to the sword, including those in the media, whose principal objective it is to disclose information. The government proudly claims that the media is free to report facts, which to a large extent is truer than ever before. But there is no cause for complacency on this score. Earlier this year journalist Hayatullah Khan, in his attempt to uncover the truth about the military operations in Waziristan was picked up and later assassinated. The perpetrators are still unknown and at large and there has been little effort by the government to bring them to justice. Hayatullah Khan, and many others like him, died in the quest for the freedom to know the truth. On Wednesday, the Pakistan Press Foundation (PPF) appropriately awarded the Aslam Ali Press Freedom Award 2006 to him for his struggle for the truth. Unless we know the truth, we will continue to be held hostage by injustice and repressive obedience. Thursday's brutal and humiliating attack on aggrieved citizens is a stark reminder of that.

 

[blain2]

This is probably the most annoying of all habits...simply go on google, find a few articles and paste them as rebuttals....for every single article that you have posted here, I could post a matching one about the democratic India and you know what I say is true.

Answer my queries from earlier posts first instead of cutting and pasting google queries here...and just say the word and I will cut and paste 1:1 reports about suppression of media in India, corruption galore in all things in the Indian civil society (I mean to be really honest, you guys have no standing in criticising Pakistan about any of these things since Indian record on a lot of these things is just as blemished as ours but ours is improving like India's and it will take time).

So where were we now...you said something about Musharraf being a fundamentalist IIRC.

 

[john_holmes]

Hmm.

I have lost the article which claimed Musharraf is a fundamentalist in a moderate garb. Let me dig it up, it will take a couple of days to find it.

But what about citizens disappearing and being murdered in broad daylight by the Army ? Do you support it Blain ?

 

[Neo]

There is so much Indian propaganda in your posts that I do not know where to begin to dispell the many ill-conceived notions in your posts.

Instead of using in vogue terms like "fundamentalist", can you explain to me what is a fundamentalist and once you have done so, please try to fit Musharraf into that mould. At that point in time, many of us can explain to you the difference between a fundamentalist and Musharraf.

Hmm really? Now let's see...TI has a corruption index based on "perception". There is no real data that backs up the index that TI puts out...its simply a perception of corruption as it appears in the minds of people...so admittedly Pakistan takes a black eye on it (btw, India's ranking is nothing to be proud of being such a big, transparent democratic country), but how does that implicate Musharraf? Yes there is corruption in many parts of the govt...only a child would expect that Pakistan would suddenly become the most transparently clean place to do business. It takes time, legal work, process and reforms to be put in place, all the things that Musharraf and the PM have been working on vigorously over the past 5 years....once in place, things are bound to improve..an example is the telecom sector alone...once the hallmark of incompetence and corruption in Pakistan...we de-regulation and reforms by the current govt, in Asia, Pakistan offers the most transparent and fastest time to market access for investors. (On this count, we are well ahead of India).



Pakistan's blow-back started in 1979 with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (shamefully India was one of the only countries outside of Warsaw Pact that supported this naked aggression) and not in a vacuum. Our freedom fighters are your terrorist..that is fine and we can live with it because as history shows, ones hero is always somebody elses terrorist....its just a matter of who gets to write history to set the record "straight" (pun intended). Extremists exist on both sides of the border so on this one count, India is not any better off.

As should all the leaders be...cunning is an adversarial word...one that you would find a lot of Pakistanis using for *all* of the Indian leaders as well...Musharraf is just as intelligent and tactful. Both qualities that can come in handy.

Musharraf is doing with the MMA what any other leader would do to form a govt...I do not see you being ashamed about having a religiously motivated party like BJP ruling India so why would you cry about a Pakistani leader working with an Islamist party??? MMA and its sub parties are an essential part of the Pakistani political landscape.

Don't even get me started on the media freedom and claiming to know about the situation there better than us Pakistanis please. There is so much vitriol written about Musharraf in both the urdu and english media that it gets boring....lets also make a distinction...criticising of the military is a different thing than criticising Musharraf....the latter goes on all the time, criticising the former is not appropriate since its a national institution and a very good one at that....professionally, people of Pakistan have no issues with the military..its the political dabbling and for this, Musharraf is not spared...(Ahsan Saleem Hayat (VCoAS) and his boys should be spared and rightly so as well since they have nothing to do with Politics).

Musharraf has done more than Zia and under more demanding circumstances. Musharraf has delivered on more than what Zia got....F-16s etc., are all meaning less in contrast to the economic turnaround that has happened during his time....F-16s and the other stuff is coming nonetheless.

How did he sell Pakistan out with one lousy call (I am starting to think that this effort to debate with you will be a waste for some reason )

He saved Pakistan by joining the US GWOT. As a leader he saw that there was nothing left with the Taliban alliance so he gave up on it after trying to convince them. He used the circumstances to align Pakistani interests with those of the US...on many fronts he has succeeded, on some he has failed..but the net of it is that Pakistan is in a more tenable position today.

Curtailed the nuclear programe??? Hmm this one has been pulled out of where now? Please lets not take to assumptions (ill-founded ones at that too). Pakistani citizens killed in the PA action was indeed unfortunate...but such a thing is bound to happen when the writ of govt has to be established. On this one count, I myself am not happy, but the other choices are even harder and even more indiscriminate than the PA going after some groups.

Zia was admired and still is for many things he did...primarily the leadership he showed to lead the efforts for Afghan Jihad...he saved Pakistan from the Soviet domination...as always there are repercussions of it and that is fine...Pakistan survives today for the better through these tribulations....yes Musharraf's policies will also have some reverberations after he leaves but do you think that this is not the norm? Leaders will make calls and some of those will be good and some just trash, but Musharraf would not be worth his salt if being the leader of Pakistan, he did not make those calls and let others do it for him.

I pray that Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz continue their work with evermore dedication and zeal...Pakistan can use their leadership for another 5 years easily. As a Pakistani, they have my vote of confidence.

:flag:

Excellent post Sir!
I couldn't have worded it better!
Thanks! :army:

 

[john_holmes]

Before you guys get all self-congratulatory, the wonders of googling has thrown another gem on your mushy-traitor.
A General Turn Around
By Zahid Hussain

Meanwhile, at 1:30 p.m, Colin Powell spoke to President Musharraf on the phone. "The American people would not understand if Pakistan did not cooperate in this fight with the United States," Powell said candidly, as one general to another. President Musharraf promised to cooperate fully with the United States.

It was 12 p.m on September 13, when General Mahmood returned to the State Department for the second meeting. "This is not negotiable," said Armitage, as he handed over a single sheet of paper with seven demands which Bush administration wanted him to accept. The general, who was known for his hard-line pro-Taliban position, glanced through the paper for a few seconds and replied: "They are all acceptable to us." The swift response took Armitage by surprise. "These are very powerful words, General. Do you not want to discuss with your President?" he asked. "I know the president's mind," replied General Mahmood. A visibly elated Armitage asked General Mahmood to meet with George Tenet, the CIA chief at his headquarters at Langley. "He is waiting for you," said Armitage.

One more to warm your hearts -

Steyn's Speciousness

That must have been quite the phone call he'd got from Washington a day or two earlier.

:google: paindabad