Mass protests sweep Gilgit Baltistan

[Zarrar Alvi]

Guess the place??

 

[Peshwa]

What you don`t understand (or may be don`t want to understand) is that the report does not state anything like what you are trying to claim here ...

No where in "Charter of Demands" of Awami Action Committe , Gilgit Baltistan is referred as "Occupied" or "Disputed" Territory .. .... The first seven demands are related to removal of different taxes , No load shedding etc. ... 8th point states that :

The international law of "No Taxation without Representation" should be applied to GB ..... And the ninth (and the last demand) is :

"The AWC is calling for the removal of taxes because according to international law, there should be no taxation without representation. As an occupied territory Gilgit Baltistan is exempt from all type of taxes but government has imposed taxes on people of Gilgit Baltistan illegally.”

Do you really think these people are protesting without understanding that as part of a disputed land, they have the right to be exempt from taxes??
Their protest is a validation to the idea that they understand GB to be disputed, not a Pakistani territory..
Mr. Hasan as a journalist is explaining the position of the group...not providing his own two bit..

Every authority on the subject abroad holds that Pakistan did not cede any land; on the contrary it was China which ceded to Pakistan 750 square miles of administered territory..!!!

It is inconsequential what the opinions of external parties are in this matter...

The dispute of the erstwhile Kashmir state is a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan only and recognized by the UN....any deal/actions made unilaterally on Pakistan's part is going against its international commitment and illegal....its irrelevant what the nature of the deal is!

The rest of your post is useless in my opinion when the basis of the deal itself is illegal..

 

[waz]

Please see the report I posted Waz...it claims the people are from the valley...and in some very sensitive areas....

I purposely chose to use a neutral paper so as to avoid people claiming the report as biased...

Let me know your thoughts...

I have read that and it states they have "have been asked to converge on Pattan Town", Thereafter it talks about the police in Pattan "offering jobs and huge money" leading to the arrests of militans. The source states that the presence of the separatists is "growing" and that "ten days later", only one militant was down, probably through his own fault. This means the people are not interested.

If anything this article proves our point that the Kashmiri people do not want to join the forces. They are even reluctant to help the police which most of the time is comprised of locals entirely.

The 10,000 figure was taken from 2011, three years ago and says nothing of the makeup of recruits. Sorry to sound pessimistic I know from personal accounts that very rarely does anyone join the army from the valley.

 

[Peshwa]

If anything this article proves our point that the Kashmiri people do not want to join the forces. They are even reluctant to help the police which most of the time is comprised of locals entirely

Quote from the very article:
"But in the past, thousands of youth have taken part in such rallies, disregarding a struggle for an end to New Delhi's rule in the state that has seen tens of thousands killed since 1989"

I think it states very clearly the point Im trying to make..

The 10,000 figure was taken from 2011, three years ago and says nothing of the makeup of recruits. Sorry to sound pessimistic I know from personal accounts that very rarely does anyone join the army from the valley.

Things have only improved since 2011, so if at the height of anti-india protests, we had such a solid turnout...i would expect it to be much stronger now...but thats speculation.
Similarly...its speculation to say that the recruits were not muslim purely based on your personal notions dont you think? Afterall, Kashmir is overwhelmingly muslim and the base of recruitment was baramullah, a rather sensitive muslim stronghold

 

[waz]

Azad Kashmir is also the Sufi Bastion of Pakistan!




These cakes are made by British Kashmiris in the businesses in Azad Kashmir. No joke. And they ARE the best cakes in Pakistan, top notch.


Mirpur Zindabad!

Mashallah that's true bro.

Kotli, Bhimber, Bagh, Haveli, Sudhnoti, Poonch, Neelum, Hatitan and Muzaffarabad zindabad!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Why wouldn't they? The world over sees recruitment drives where people couldn't get into their local regiments and decide to opt for the next big thing.

I understand the whole reservation thing, but one thing is fairly certain that Muslims do not serve in the numbers proportional to their population.

So don't the Hindus.

 

[waz]

Quote from the very article:
"But in the past, thousands of youth have taken part in such rallies, disregarding a struggle for an end to New Delhi's rule in the state that has seen tens of thousands killed since 1989"

I think it states very clearly the point Im trying to make..

The past? From when to when? The article is poorly written, but that's beside the point. Where are these thousands of Kashmiri youth who joined the forces? Surely the numbers would be staggering now, judging by what the article is stating.

Quote from the very article:
Things have only improved since 2011, so if at the height of anti-india protests, we had such a solid turnout...i would expect it to be much stronger now...but thats speculation.
Similarly...its speculation to say that the recruits were not muslim purely based on your personal notions dont you think? Afterall, Kashmir is overwhelmingly muslim and the base of recruitment was baramullah, a rather sensitive muslim stronghold

Things have got worse man.

Police: Kashmiri teen killed by Indian forces - Yahoo News

I don't suspect the numbers as such but their make up is suspect. There are no photos or solid stats backing up what the article states. You're right to question whether I am speculating but the fact is I have extended family (through marriage) who live in 2 districts over the LOC and they haven't seen any such enthusiasm for joining the army. Police, yes.

So don't the Hindus.

I understand that lol.

But the bulk of the force has Hinduism as their faith right?

 

[INDIC]

"The AWC is calling for the removal of taxes because according to international law, there should be no taxation without representation. As an occupied territory Gilgit Baltistan is exempt from all type of taxes but government has imposed taxes on people of Gilgit Baltistan illegally.”

Do you really think these people are protesting without understanding that as part of a disputed land, they have the right to be exempt from taxes??
Their protest is a validation to the idea that they understand GB to be disputed, not a Pakistani territory..
Mr. Hasan as a journalist is explaining the position of the group...not providing his own two bit..




It is inconsequential what the opinions of external parties are in this matter...

The dispute of the erstwhile Kashmir state is a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan only and recognized by the UN....any deal/actions made unilaterally on Pakistan's part is going against its international commitment and illegal....its irrelevant what the nature of the deal is!

The rest of your post is useless in my opinion when the basis of the deal itself is illegal..

Here is the map of last year's election, you will see no representation from Gilgit-Baltistan in Pakistan's Parliament.

 

[waz]

Here is the map of last year's election, you will see no representation from Gilgit-Baltistan in Pakistan's Parliament.

Yes, that's why they are demonstrating......

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I understand that lol.

But the bulk of the force has Hinduism as their faith right?

If you mean majority - then yes - roughly 70%. Religious census is forbidden so there's no accurate figure.

 

[Armstrong]

Of course the willingness of Kashmiris (muslims) to join the army is important here...it shows their intent in being part of the force of the nation of India...a direct endorsement of the country

Now maybe the assumption you are making is that the 10,000 odd volunteers that showed up were predominantly Hindus or Sikhs..but not muslim
The Kashmir valley is majority Muslim and the recruitment was carried out in Baramulla...a highly sensitive area with overwhelming muslim majority...unless you have proof that muslim volunteers refrained from these recruitment rallies, or even that muslims were a small fraction of this volunteer group...
My point stands!


I quote from dawn....

"To make sure that no one would ever again raise that issue, he said the very act of asking the question would be an act of sedition. Another former defence minister, Pranab Mukherjee, stated in 2006 that military recruitment was based on merit and there was no discrimination in the services based on caste or religion. He added that no survey had been conducted to determine the religious identity of the soldiers nor would one be done in the future"

"No official statistics are available on the number of Muslims in the Indian army"
Source:Muslims in Indian army - - DAWN.COM

So Dear Armstrong, please direct me to an official GOI census of the IA that I have tried hard to find on the net, yet have not found a single official source for the claim for the 29,000 numbers except by vague references from "Guardian to Dawn"...
well..in this case Dawn validates my claim..


Your figures are at this point are shaky at best...your argument loses merit when the very number you base it on is nothing short of pure conjecture....a stellar example of a self fulfilling prophecy

So I gather that IndiaToday is lying when it states thus:
While the navy and the air force have already provided the data on the number of Muslims in their arms, the army did so only reluctantly after being asked to do so by the Ministry of Defence-that it had 29,000 Muslim troops.

Sachar Committee: Congress minority agenda comes under scrutiny : NATION - India Today

I can't seem to find any Statement by the Ministry of Defense nor the Indian Army saying that they - IndiaToday - misquoted or misrepresented them in the above article !

So far as your Dawn source is concerned - that is a Letter to the Editor not an Editorial Piece as the above is.

I would imagine that the following would amount to something a bit more than 'vague references' :

Mumbai probe eyes local Muslim group - CSMonitor.com

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HK15Df01.html

Muslim India struggles to escape the past | World news | The Guardian

Indian Muslims struggle to escape the past - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

 

[Peshwa]

So I gather that IndiaToday is lying when it states thus:
While the navy and the air force have already provided the data on the number of Muslims in their arms, the army did so only reluctantly after being asked to do so by the Ministry of Defence-that it had 29,000 Muslim troops.

Sachar Committee: Congress minority agenda comes under scrutiny : NATION - India Today

I can't seem to find any Statement by the Ministry of Defense nor the Indian Army saying that they - IndiaToday - misquoted or misrepresented them in the above article !

So far as your Dawn source is concerned - that is a Letter to the Editor not an Editorial Piece as the above is.

I would imagine that the following would amount to something a bit more than 'vague references' :

Mumbai probe eyes local Muslim group - CSMonitor.com

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HK15Df01.html

Muslim India struggles to escape the past | World news | The Guardian

Indian Muslims struggle to escape the past - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

Well...if India Today did get this information, the question is from where?? It is clear that except for the GOI, no other entity including India Today magazine has the resources nor the authority to conduct such a census of the armed forces...
So what is the basis for this number then?

Any such numbers thrown around MUST have a reference...in the case of India today, it claims "the army"...without any clarification of who in the army with the legitimate authority nor links to such a census...

The dawn report even though an editorial quotes the defence minister Pranab Mukherjee (2006)....a direct reference!
Also, it is not the responsibility of the army, navy or air force to defend random accusations and numbers...they simply dont acknowledge the figure is how i take this.

It is evident that the numbers you have been quoting (even though referenced by some reputed news sources) have no point of origin!
With such a weak basis of argument, unfortunately we cant continue down this path with the implications in your previous posts....

 

[Peshwa]

The past? From when to when? The article is poorly written, but that's beside the point. Where are these thousands of Kashmiri youth who joined the forces? Surely the numbers would be staggering now, judging by what the article is stating.

I agree...the article needs to have stronger basis in statistics...
But it was hard to find a newspaper that wouldnt be labeled as a crony, since most newspapers that pick up such stories would be non-Kashmiri, India based...

Nevertheless,...its an ongoing discussion Im having with Armstrong about the lack of existence of a religion based census for the army...so of course you wont see the Indian army with its secular traditions publicizing its muslim army men..

Things have got worse man.

Police: Kashmiri teen killed by Indian forces - Yahoo News

Kashmiris are in a tough place man...I feel for ya...
But at the same time, I meant better in the term of protests....In 2011, I believe there were an insane number of them and some unfortunate teenage deaths too..

India needs to do better about law and order and riot control...

I don't suspect the numbers as such but their make up is suspect. There are no photos or solid stats backing up what the article states. You're right to question whether I am speculating but the fact is I have extended family (through marriage) who live in 2 districts over the LOC and they haven't seen any such enthusiasm for joining the army. Police, yes.

I hear ya...you speak from a boots on the ground situation, I understand. But its still hard to put numbers behind any of this...from my side or urs.

I wish the Kashmiris the best...

I understand that lol.

But the bulk of the force has Hinduism as their faith right?

Well...individual faith and the collective faith is different...

Pakistan as an Islamic Republic can claim to be a muslim army....Indian army is fiercely secular!

 

[M. Sarmad]

"The AWC is calling for the removal of taxes because according to international law, there should be no taxation without representation. As an occupied territory Gilgit Baltistan is exempt from all type of taxes but government has imposed taxes on people of Gilgit Baltistan illegally.”
Do you really think these people are protesting without understanding that as part of a disputed land, they have the right to be exempt from taxes??
Their protest is a validation to the idea that they understand GB to be disputed, not a Pakistani territory..
Mr. Hasan as a journalist is explaining the position of the group...not providing his own two bit..

And you are quoting words of Mr . Hasan ....... Genius
You don`t even know what is the "charter of demands" of AWC and still you are blabbering on and on .....

It is inconsequential what the opinions of external parties are in this matter...
The dispute of the erstwhile Kashmir state is a bilateral dispute between India and Pakistan only and recognized by the UN....any deal/actions made unilaterally on Pakistan's part is going against its international commitment and illegal....its irrelevant what the nature of the deal is!

The Sino Pak border agreement was signed in 1963 .... Simla Agreement in 1972 ... So your argument is invalid .......

And here is what an Indian Expert says on this matter :

What We Know and What We Do Not Know, The SINO-PAK Boundary Agreement


Read it through and then cry over your ignorance !!

The rest of your post is useless in my opinion when the basis of the deal itself is illegal..

And your opinion carries no weight My friend ........ You don`t know anything

 

[M. Sarmad]

Awami Action Committee reaches agreement with govt, details tomorrow by PM
Apr 25, 2014 PAMIR TIMES

Islamabad: The Awami Action Committee and the government committee have held a successful dialogue in the federal capital today. There are reports that the Prime Minister will announce details of the agreement reached tomorrow in the capital.

According to some sources, the price of wheat will be fixed at 10 rupees er kilogram for a period of five years. Others have reported the figure to to be 11 rupees.

No details have been given about the 8 other points that were part of the Awami Action Committee’s Charter of Demand.

The Awami Action Committee had mobilized around a hundreds thousand people in all parts of the Gilgit-Baltistan region, having a population not more than 2 million. The pressure built by the sit-ins at Skardu and Gilgit forced the provincial and federal government to resolve the issue. Negotiations failed on several occasions but finally there are reports that an agreement has been reached.

Meanwhile, the sit-in at Gilgit and Skardu continued on the 11th day.

The historical Dharna is unique in a sense that they remained cent percent peaceful and there were no acts of violence reported from any part of the region.

On a couple of occasions some government personalities were not allowed to speak which created some tense situation and there were also reports about attacks on personalities. However, no reports of physical violence were reported from any part of the region.

The Awami Action Committee has said that they will not end the Dharna until notification of acceptance of the demands is issued.