Losing My Religion?

[SQ8]

OP wants a rational explanation to his faith or bits of which is believed to be true @Jungibaaz
Nobody denies there is very good psychological reason to believe in religion.

The first thing about religion is to stop trying to rationalize it PUBLICLY.
Everybody understands it differently, sees it different.

 

[Alpha1]

then i come back to my first question, if some one created the universe, who created creator??? in your own words everything existent needs a creator, right?

yes but it is in the defination of 'GOD' i.e ALLAH that he is uncreated. period.

 

[ajpirzada]

then i come back to my first question, if some one created the universe, who created creator??? in your own words everything existent needs a creator, right?

and ill come back to my first answer: why not ask the Creator?

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him." - Chapter 112, The Quran

 

[Jungibaaz]

OP wants a rational explanation to his faith or bits of which is believed to be true @Jungibaaz
Nobody denies there is very good psychological reason to believe in religion.

My point being, if you're looking for proof, or logical reasoning within the comprehension of a puny human being, you wont get it.

From a theist's perspective, he believes that god is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful. Human's cannot comprehend divine wisdom or knowledge, at best they can try to emulate it within the limits of their thoughts, another division; wisdom and knowing are not human qualities, human qualities are limited to thought, reasoning and learning.

Besides, from a theists perspective, life is a test for the hereafter, your faith is being tested. That is the meaning of faith. If you start looking for answers, you diverge from the path of faith, on to the path of suspicion, and any answers you were looking for, you wont find.

Hence, if you're looking for rational explanations, you wont get any.

 

[livingdead]

My point being, if you're looking for proof, or logical reasoning within the comprehension of a puny human being, you wont get it.

From a theist's perspective, he believes that god is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful. Human's cannot comprehend divine wisdom or knowledge, at best they can try to emulate it within the limits of their thoughts, another division; wisdom and knowing are not human qualities, human qualities are limited to thought, reasoning and learning.

Besides, from a theists perspective, life is a test for the hereafter, your faith is being tested. That is the meaning of faith. If you start looking for answers, you diverge from the path of faith, on to the path of suspicion, and any answers you were looking for, you wont find.

Hence, if you're looking for rational explanations, you wont get any.

@Jungibaaz .. I would leave it to @Neptune and @Skies to respond as to why they are expecting a rational explanation to something which is based on pure faith.

My question is, dont you see a danger there, that fake babas, charlatans etc telling lies to people and people keep believing them because they are neck deep in faith... if one is brought up in a diet of black magic, sorcery, voodoo , he/she will never be able to get out of it, if he believed its all his faith, beyond rationality.
Blind faith is indistinguishable from blind belief.

 

[MilSpec]

and ill come back to my first answer: why not ask the Creator?

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him." - Chapter 112, The Quran

Universe is created by god,,, only way to prove it is ask him, his existence cannot be challenged, .... brilliant points made...
Any theory needs proof to validate/solidify it's stance, so in conjunction if I say that demons made the universe... that holds equal logical value as allah, doesn't it?

And when asked who created demons I can say go ask them ... and all of that will be exactly as valid as your stance...

 

[Argus Panoptes]

This thread is an exercise in circular logic and best viewed from a distance:

God can create anything. God can do anything.

Can God create a stone so big He cannot lift Himself?

================
@Aeronaut or any other Mod Please approve this post. Thanks.

 

[MilSpec]

You are comparing apples with oranges. You need to understand that God is not a material being. Material evidence of God would be rather silly. scientific method does not operate on supernatural entities. We have detailed discussion and argument in this topic. Take some efforts to read few pages of this topic to understand the differences between belief, fact, truth

Thats what I have been saying all along, If you believe in Allah, zeus, Mithra, Jesus, superman, santa claus or any other supernatural entity, then it's absolutely fine as long as you state it purely as a belief, not a theory with supported factual data that provides proof in measurable units/statistical data with reproducibility or as a rational fact... thats it!!!

hence two things I object to is :

When your religion or belief system is based on "belief", then don't proclaim moral superiority over other equally non-factual religions. Example: bashing of Scientology, islam, idol worship, judaism, vodoo etc.... all of them are beliefs none can claim any superiority over the other.

Next is pitching "beliefs" as alternative to unanswered questions to origin of life, cosmological and astronomical events, geological origins etc. Lack of data doesn't equal to acceptance of flying horses as a valid answer.

yes but it is in the defination of 'GOD' i.e ALLAH that he is uncreated. period.

If there is a definition, then there is scope to validate it, isn't it... How do you validate the "uncreated" phenomenon,

 

[ajpirzada]

Universe is created by god,,, only way to prove it is ask him, his existence cannot be challenged, .... brilliant points made...
Any theory needs proof to validate/solidify it's stance, so in conjunction if I say that demons made the universe... that holds equal logical value as allah, doesn't it?

And when asked who created demons I can say go ask them ... and all of that will be exactly as valid as your stance...

you are confusing two different things to prove your point. summary of my argument is: that the Universe, being created, requires a creator is scientific. but that The Creator himself is created or uncreated is beyond science unless The Creator could be observed. The former is scientific and the latter requires religion and/or philosophy.

so to believe in a Creator is scientific; to not believe in a creator a belief; and, to believe in religion or any philosophy is also a belief. now beliefs may not always be unscientific depending on various factors while at the same time some of them may have to be unscientific by their very nature.

anyway, we have completed one full circle. it was nice talking to you and i hope no hard feelings

 

[MilSpec]

you are confusing two different things to prove your point. summary of my argument is: that the Universe, being created, requires a creator is scientific. but that The Creator himself is created or uncreated is beyond science unless The Creator could be observed. The former is scientific and the latter requires religion and/or philosophy.

so to believe in a Creator is scientific; to not believe in a creator a belief; and, to believe in religion or any philosophy is also a belief. now beliefs may not always be unscientific depending on various factors while at the same time some of them may have to be unscientific by their very nature.

anyway, we have completed one full circle. it was nice talking to you and i hope no hard feelings

Creation of the universe as you state, that is a belief, if it is indeed created by a creator, explain the process... as my contention remains that there is no exact answer to how the universe came into existence, but that doesn't give you the the right to put in hokum creator theory... simple.

creation needs creator, but there is no proof in religious theology to prove the data for creation or the existence of the creator, hence your viewpoint as a belief is acceptable but as a rationale makes no sense at all...

If anything related to existence is god is to be brought into the domain of scientific discussion there is no scope for philosophy. Belief as I said needs no proof , and I repeat again you can believe in whatever you want as long as it remains with you and doesn't disrupt any other process....

 

[Yeti]

Interesting thread, there is a Rig Vedic poem on creation which shows the agnostic side to Hinduism which I will quote:

There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.

Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps He does not know.

The last verses is very interesting for me

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Thats what I have been saying all along, If you believe in Allah, zeus, Mithra, Jesus, superman, santa claus or any other supernatural entity, then it's absolutely fine as long as you state it purely as a belief, not a theory with supported factual data that provides proof in measurable units/statistical data with reproducibility or as a rational fact... thats it!!!

hence two things I object to is :

When your religion or belief system is based on "belief", then don't proclaim moral superiority over other equally non-factual religions. Example: bashing of Scientology, islam, idol worship, judaism, vodoo etc.... all of them are beliefs none can claim any superiority over the other.

Next is pitching "beliefs" as alternative to unanswered questions to origin of life, cosmological and astronomical events, geological origins etc. Lack of data doesn't equal to acceptance of flying horses as a valid answer.



If there is a definition, then there is scope to validate it, isn't it... How do you validate the "uncreated" phenomenon,

First of all religions are not same even if they all based on beliefs but their beliefs and concepts of God are differnt and thats why pepople stick to religion which they consider/percieve as true. You often need reasoning to pick right religion or belief system for you if you dont have any or if you wish to switch from one to others . People believe that their scripture (revealed on Prophet through angels) is word of God which mean that is evidence of existance of God for them. They dont feel the need for scientific/physical evidence of God to go to lab to examine God as you examine any other physical entity/particle because they know its impossible

You or science has its limitaions thats why they are not able to comprehend something which is not physical or dont come within laws of physics. Scientists rely on their senses for observation which are limited i.e sense of hearing/watching/listening etc as you can hear limited sound frequency and can see limited colours . We know even dog or others birds see/hear things which we cannot..Science has not yet discovered all the truth out there. Were laws of physics existed before we doscover them? yea they were existed but we did not know about their existence.

The actual test of believers here is to find out whether they would believe in existence of God and scirptures without any solid/physical evidence and thats why reward or punishment make sense. Religion is not against sicence or any knowledge which study universe or searching explainations of how everything work in this universe. It is also not the job of science to support or oppose existence of God or giving opinions about something which is outside the realm of science.

 

[cleverrider]

you are confusing two different things to prove your point. summary of my argument is: that the Universe, being created, requires a creator is scientific. but that The Creator himself is created or uncreated is beyond science unless The Creator could be observed. The former is scientific and the latter requires religion and/or philosophy.

so to believe in a Creator is scientific; to not believe in a creator a belief; and, to believe in religion or any philosophy is also a belief. now beliefs may not always be unscientific depending on various factors while at the same time some of them may have to be unscientific by their very nature.

anyway, we have completed one full circle. it was nice talking to you and i hope no hard feelings

Sir You're losing us, you guys are just going in circles! if you read my post i mentioned, that these questions can not be answered by the ---current---- "Intelligent life" & that includes you Sir!

In simple words!

 

[Anotherangle]

This thread is an exercise in circular logic and best viewed from a distance:

God can create anything. God can do anything.

Making this point, you accept there is God; God himself made these claims in revelation

Can God create a stone so big He cannot lift Himself?

1. This is a question against the claim: it questions the truth of the claim and should best be put to the one who made the claim i.e. God himself.
2. the question in itself is contradictory and contradictions do not exist. ( or in other words God has not allowed contradictions in this world to exist simultaneously)
3. For better understanding of the question among us humans, we can expand the question structure such as:
a) an artist claims he can paint anything, (so the question put to him is) " b) can you paint anything that you cannot handle?
Now you can see that the question is only rhetorical; first, the artist's claim did not mean about the things which he/she does not deal with; second, if the artist cannot handle something, why will he/she paint it? third, If his/her claim is true, then why will he/she not able to handle it?...........And the last (but not the least), you challenge the artist's claim considering him/her a lair and you can do this because you are as a human being equal to him/her; but, any such question put to God mean you are challenging God's claim and by doing so you also imply that you yourself are equal to God. Now I and anybody with some reason can understand why God will put a few feet flesh and blood in hell; you secretly (and some even openly) claim to be God's equal, now being so powerful, you should get out of his creation i.e. hell. (my prayer for all humanity, "May Allah save all of us from His punishment")

I think many people can answer this better than I have done as it is neither new nor extra-ordinary logic and this particular question is probably taught to 3rd year of Darse-Nazami (religious course) students (during their 8-year course in madrassa.)

Now the answer is inline existence of God in the first step of the circular logic, what about those who do not believe in any existence of God?
Imam ghazali ( a prominent scholar in history) gave an anecdote about scientific mind, but I fear that it will not get through the moderators, so I am giving a very ordinary logic:
There can only be two primary hypothetical realities; Hypothetical reality 1.There is no God Hypothetical reality 2. There is God

Consider 'Hypothetical reality 1', "If there is no god, believers and non- believers are equal". Both of the groups are living the maximum and enjoying the life, in the end you will perish and we will perish, so no loss to any one. (this is logic only; I know for myself that the serenity, calmness of life in general and family life in particular and the pleasure of hear the Sufi possess is incomparable to earthly enjoyment- I know it because I was an atheist, then a bookish muslim before becoming a Practicing Sufi Muslim)

Consider 'Hypothetical reality 2', "If there is God, we Sufi will meet our beloved i.e. God and bookish Muslims will enter paradise,. but what the non-believers will do? where will they go?"

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