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Jinnah's secularism was about pluralism: YLH

You were dropped as a baby or what? Lol, single most retarted thing I have heard in a while
Just don't say that in front of people...

He wasn't a theocrat but he was a Muslim nationalist - you can believe in state secularism while also being a Muslim nationalist
Under ottoman empire where they had a mix of ottoman and Shariah laws, Greeks, Armenian and Kurds we're very much integrated in society

But no one except for Muslims survived Turkish secularism- they faced similar situation like ours, Balkans, Greece, parts of Russia (not most as Muslims in Russia make up a good%) and Muslims of Armenia were driven into Turkey and Turkish secular nationalists drove out all these people because they believed they're traitors


The only place where people were driven out was in Punjab- Punjab makes up what 40% of the country and vica versa HP, IP and haryana have very little Muslim presence due to partition voilance- most of northern Punjab urban and semi urban areas are made up of just voilance refugees, first wave was Kashmiri escaping dogra rule, second wave was partition victims coming from Indian punjab, haryana and than in minority UP, Bihar - proper native Borns in northern Punjab exist but they're probably a slight majority, a lot of people have violent backstories

Pakhtunkhwa, gilgit and Balochistan never really had any minority population , Sindh saw very little voilance

Pakistan probably wasn't exactly built on that but our people were not that- living in Pakistan we are probably amongst the most open hearted people groups if I compare it to different nationalities I meet even in the US but we also into honor systems/ revenge and shit, so don't know what to think of this

I saw a map on Reddit about pre-40s cammunal voilance and after South India we had the least amount of cammunal violence in British India and UP areas had the most

I am searching for it for like a good 10 minutes but just can't get a hold of it, if anyone else can it'll be cool

Are you @Ferquize

Sir Jee: Why are you wasting your time on arguing with some Chutiyam Kumars/Kapurs/Prasads? Far better to listen some songs of Ata Ullah Eesa Khel or Allah Ditta Lonay Waala. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Sir Jee: Why are you wasting your time on arguing with some Chutiyam Kumars/Kapurs/Prasads? Far better to listen some songs of Ata Ullah Eesa Khel or Allah Ditta Lonay Waala. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know the other guy, looks like a dumba** but Attaulah is a different beast altogether 😭😍
 
China shows very well that secularism is not needed for economic progress. I do not know what is the big fuss about as it itself guarantee sucess, anyway majortiy of the worse hellholes on planet are secular.
 
I don't know the other guy, looks like a dumba** but Attaulah is a different beast altogether 😭😍

Listen to two pieces of Allah Ditta Loonay Waala:

1) Pochhan doriye da, patnaan tay rorh aayiyaan
2) Lungi tairi saavi, rung saava cholay da
 
China shows very well that secularism is not needed for economic progress. I do not know what is the big fuss about as it itself guarantee sucess, anyway majortiy of the worse hellholes on planet are secular.
Pakistan is secular enough for my liking legally speaking but people need to take a chill pill and government needs to de radicalize people,

we need to focus on other much more important things, I think from a legal POV except for some changes (like blasphemy BS) here and there we're fine, becoming a secular Turkish type republic doesn't suit us and only stupid people argue for it- and that's coming from a person who is agnostic not even an Islamist or a proper Muslim
 
I don't know the other guy, looks like a dumba** but Attaulah is a different beast altogether 😭😍

The difference between you and me is that I am an old timer "baaba (64 years old)", with his legs on the brink of grave. It makes a lot of difference.:-)
 
Pakistan is secular enough for my liking legally speaking but people need to take a chill pill and government needs to de radicalize people,

we need to focus on other much more important things, I think from a legal POV except for some changes (like blasphemy BS) here and there we're fine, becoming a secular Turkish type republic doesn't suit us and only stupid people argue for it- and that's coming from a person who is agnostic not even an Islamist or a proper Muslim
Only what really matters is consequent conducting of anti corruption laws and institutions, china started to prosper once they started to shoot people over economy frauds and crimes.
 
He wasn't a theocrat but he was a Muslim nationalist - you can believe in state secularism while also being a Muslim nationalist
Jinnah was a Muslim only in name, he did a lot of things that would be considered un Islamic. The guy never prayed once in his life but suddenly became a leader for Muslims. He was a demagogue who exploited Islamist sentiments among subcontinental Muslims along with the British colonialists, he didn't contribute a single thing to the freedom struggle.
The only place where people were driven out was in Punjab- Punjab makes up what 40% of the country and vica versa HP, IP and haryana have very little Muslim presence due to partition voilance- most of northern Punjab urban and semi urban areas are made up of just voilance refugees, first wave was Kashmiri escaping dogra rule, second wave was partition victims coming from Indian punjab, haryana and than in minority UP, Bihar - proper native Borns in northern Punjab exist but they're probably a slight majority, a lot of people have violent backstories
Only Punjab? Punjab is the main province of Pakistan, and all the Sikhs and Hindus who made up the place were systematically driven out or killed when Pakistan came into being. Hindus and Sikhs were also driven out of Karachi and KPK, there are still some Hindus who remain in KPK but they keep a low profile. And the Muslim League and their goons played a huge part in inciting the Kashmir conflict and the events that led to the Dogra massacres and cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from Mirpur which ultimately led to the conflict we see today.
living in Pakistan we are probably amongst the most open hearted people groups if I compare it to different nationalities I meet even in the US but we also into honor systems/ revenge and shit, so don't know what to think of this
Ask the Ahmadis, Hindus, and Christians how "open hearted" Pakistanis are, when they face vile abuses and are treated and viewed as subhumans by the majority of the populace. Cut the crap, you aren't fooling anyone with the "open heartedness" bluff, an intolerant and fanatic society is what makes up the underbelly beyond the surface.
 
Jinnah and his team played a part in inciting riots that murdered and displaced thousands of Hindus in Pakistan, Christians were always treated like subhumans and were only needed for menial jobs like cleaning gutters to serve the majority, Shias and Ahmadis were always hated or looked down upon and sectarian violence wasn't uncommon in the 1950s, I think this is what Jinnah exactly wanted. He never actually meant to build a country on the values of secularism, tolerance, and inclusiveness, that was evident since day one.

You are entitled to have your view, whether I agree with it or not. In any case, this all that was nearly three-quarters of a century ago, and Jinnah died about a year after the partition. What was in his mind or what he wanted to build is not for me to surmise. Further what the partition created ended in 1971. And now we are about a half-century after what Jinnah created died.

I think it is time we all moved on to the present rather than endlessly revisiting the past. After all, we are all heading towards the future, and never the past.
 
China shows very well that secularism is not needed for economic progress. I do not know what is the big fuss about as it itself guarantee sucess, anyway majortiy of the worse hellholes on planet are secular.
Secularism in Bangladesh is known as "neutrality of religion" (Bengali: ধর্মনিরপেক্ষতা) under Bangladeshi law. In the Constitution of Bangladesh, secularism is mentioned in the preamble as one of the fundamental principles of Bangladeshi law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Bangladesh

your country is secular too, Muljinul
 
The only place where people were driven out was in Punjab- Punjab makes up what 40% of the country and visa versa HP, IP and Haryana have very little Muslim presence due to partition violence- most of northern Punjab urban and semi urban areas are made up of just violence refugees, the first wave was Kashmiri escaping Dogra rule, the second wave was partition victims coming from Indian Punjab, Haryana and than in minority UP, Bihar - proper native Borns in northern Punjab exist but they're probably a slight majority, a lot of people have violent backstories
Why Kashmiris migrated into Punjab
"Heavy commodifications taxation under the Sikh rule caused many Kashmiri peasants to migrate to the plains of Punjab.[5][6] These claims, made in Kashmiri histories, were corroborated by European travelers.[5] When one such European traveller, Moorcroft, left the Valley in 1823, about 500 emigrants accompanied him across the Pir Panjal Pass.[7] The 1833 famine resulted in many people leaving the Kashmir Valley and migrating to the Punjab, with the majority of weavers leaving Kashmir. Weavers settled down for generations in the cities of Punjab such as Jammu and Nurpur.[8] The 1833 famine led to a large influx of Kashmiris into Amritsar.[citation needed] Kashmir's Muslims in particular suffered and had to leave Kashmir in large numbers, while Hindus were not much affected."

A large number of Muslim Kashmiris migrated from the Kashmir Valley[11] to the Punjab due to conditions in the princely state[11] such as famine, extreme poverty[12] and harsh treatment of Kashmiri Muslims by the Dogra Hindu regime.[13] According to the 1911 Census there were 177,549 Kashmiri Muslims in the Punjab. With the inclusion of Kashmiri settlements in NWFP this figure rose to 206,180. "


Half my family is from Indian Punjab, parts of Haryana and we know what happened- and the vast majority of people in my surroundings have similar stories as a lot of Pakistan was directly affected by extreme violence more than any other modern-day persecution seeking Hindutava ever was

Muslim Punjabi migration from Indian Punjab
"
he attacks, financed by Hindu tycoons and Sikh Maharajas, were so well planned/organized that many in Pakistan (and even in India) declared them "The Sikh Plan" and claimed that great Sikh conspiracy laid behind the attacks. Quite suspiciously, Sikh leaders had ordered their followers to evacuate en masse the canal lands of West Punjab (Faisalabad and Sahiwal especially) even though there were no attacks on them by Muslim mobs.

Even the Indian PM Nehru himself admitted that the Sikhs were the aggressors. He said he believed that some Sikh leaders were hoping to provoke a war between India and Pakistan, so they could launch an invasion to recapture the western half of the Punjab.


For details, read "Midnight's Furies: The Deadly Legacy of India's Partition" by Nisid Hajari.

“The Sikhs were the aggressors,” Nehru declared without hesitation in an August 22 letter to Mahatma Gandhi, estimating that twice as many Muslims had been killed in East Punjab to that point as Hindus and Sikhs in the West. When he wrote to Gandhi again three days later, Nehru said he believed that some Sikh leaders were hoping to provoke a war between India and Pakistan, so they could launch an invasion to recapture the western half of the Punjab."





violence and after South India we had the least amount of communal violence in British India and UP areas had the most
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Guess I was wrong- we had fewer communal riots than south India too
47 was not representative of our region or history as we shared not only ethnicity but clans, sub-clans too with Hindus and sikhs, little basis for violence - and after Bengal, we were the only Muslim majority region unlike other regions where riots were more frequent and they were not Muslim majority
but the trauma/ PTSD of 47 did change our thinking 360 degrees, I can agree with that...

My point of posting this is cause a lot of people have one-sided views where just Muslim people are ultimate boogeymen which is unfair
@SIPRA @Vapnope @-=virus=- @SoulSpokesman
 
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Why Kashmiris migrated into Punjab
"Heavy commodifications taxation under the Sikh rule caused many Kashmiri peasants to migrate to the plains of Punjab.[5][6] These claims, made in Kashmiri histories, were corroborated by European travelers.[5] When one such European traveller, Moorcroft, left the Valley in 1823, about 500 emigrants accompanied him across the Pir Panjal Pass.[7] The 1833 famine resulted in many people leaving the Kashmir Valley and migrating to the Punjab, with the majority of weavers leaving Kashmir. Weavers settled down for generations in the cities of Punjab such as Jammu and Nurpur.[8] The 1833 famine led to a large influx of Kashmiris into Amritsar.[citation needed] Kashmir's Muslims in particular suffered and had to leave Kashmir in large numbers, while Hindus were not much affected."

A large number of Muslim Kashmiris migrated from the Kashmir Valley[11] to the Punjab due to conditions in the princely state[11] such as famine, extreme poverty[12] and harsh treatment of Kashmiri Muslims by the Dogra Hindu regime.[13] According to the 1911 Census there were 177,549 Kashmiri Muslims in the Punjab. With the inclusion of Kashmiri settlements in NWFP this figure rose to 206,180. "


Half my family is from Indian Punjab, parts of Haryana and we know what happened- and the vast majority of people in my surroundings have similar stories as a lot of Pakistan was directly affected by extreme violence more than any other modern-day persecution seeking Hindutava ever was

Muslim Punjabi migration from Indian Punjab
"
he attacks, financed by Hindu tycoons and Sikh Maharajas, were so well planned/organized that many in Pakistan (and even in India) declared them "The Sikh Plan" and claimed that great Sikh conspiracy laid behind the attacks. Quite suspiciously, Sikh leaders had ordered their followers to evacuate en masse the canal lands of West Punjab (Faisalabad and Sahiwal especially) even though there were no attacks on them by Muslim mobs.

Even the Indian PM Nehru himself admitted that the Sikhs were the aggressors. He said he believed that some Sikh leaders were hoping to provoke a war between India and Pakistan, so they could launch an invasion to recapture the western half of the Punjab.


For details, read "Midnight's Furies: The Deadly Legacy of India's Partition" by Nisid Hajari.

“The Sikhs were the aggressors,” Nehru declared without hesitation in an August 22 letter to Mahatma Gandhi, estimating that twice as many Muslims had been killed in East Punjab to that point as Hindus and Sikhs in the West. When he wrote to Gandhi again three days later, Nehru said he believed that some Sikh leaders were hoping to provoke a war between India and Pakistan, so they could launch an invasion to recapture the western half of the Punjab."






View attachment 882296
47 was not representative of our region or history - and after Bengal, we were the only Muslim majority region unlike other regions where riots were more frequent
but the trauma/ PTSD of 47 did change our thinking 360 degrees, I can agree with that-...

My point of posting this is cause a lot of people have one-sided views where just Muslim people are ultimate boogeymen which is unfair
@SIPRA @Vapnope @-=virus=- @Wood

The carnage and atrocities in Pakistani and Indian Punjab were retributive, reciprocal and equal in quantum. By the end of 1947, there was no Hindu or Sikh left in Pakistani Punjab, and, equally, there was hardly any Muslim left in Indian Punjab, which included present day Haryana and Himachal Pradesh. This is undeniable fact of history. So, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, of Punjab, share this burden equally. Rest, most of the Indians have a habit of distorting the history, in their favor, by misrepresenting the statistics.
 
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. Rest, most of the Indians have a habit of distorting the history, in their favor, by misrepresenting the statistics.
they use our suffering for propaganda which in return would cause even more suffering for some other people- they repeat the cycle, making us into villains- that's why it needs to be called out
 
When he wrote to Gandhi again three days later, Nehru said he believed that some Sikh leaders were hoping to provoke a war between India and Pakistan, so they could launch an invasion to recapture the western half of the Punjab."
I am glad to know this is understood by contemporary pakistanis what coeval punjabis thought at that time.
There was and is( less numerous now) a section of sikhs that would like to revert the times to the golden rule.

What they probably dont understand is, it's is not possible without overwhelming force, which they dont have.

I think we can all agree punjab partition 8s set in stone, with no reversion path.
 

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