Italy didn't see it coming

[Sergi]

The punishment might be different, but I disagree that that there should be dedicated systems for acts against civilians, or during peace times. The fact that these matters like rape will be handles in house also increases the chances to downplay or completely to sweep things under the table.
Imo police and forces infact must be not only punished harder in this regard, but must also be trialed in an open public case, since they not only attack another person, but missuse their power, which actually is aimed on protecting others. We all know how many rape cases happens during war and conflict times and, so if India really wanted to set a clear sign against rape, it should have been started by it's forces, down to the common civilian.
I always find it strage (in a good way) to see common people admiring and respecting soldiers when I visit India, because it is completely different here in Germany, where military and soldiers are seen in a bad way generally because of the past. But then again, respect is something that you have to earn yourself, not only by fighting for the countries and the weak during war times, but also by setting up high standards during peace times, but giving them loopholes in this case, just because they are soldiers is for sure not the right way to change Indias mentality towards rape and violence against women.

It's not about the punishment. No one can doge it. But forces are given cover from direct involvement. That is only for operational need.
Suppose a particular police officer has crushed the crime in particular area and criminals need him to be removed form that area. Hire/force a women to charge him with rape case. He would be transferred from that area and further enquiry will be set upon him. If he is brought in the same law he would be arrested and sent to prison.

You miss understood the law. The law didn't give them cover from crime. If a particular officer is charged for the crime he has to face the court of law but with due admin process.

 

[ChinaToday]

You earlier ranting on how italy fooled you and now on this

Even before ,those marines could not get death sentence as they did not kill sailor with any intention.

Courts may not accept India’s word to Italy on marines, Khurshid says

NEW DELHI: India's "assurance" to the Italian government that the Italian marines standing trial for killing two Indian fishermen may not be upheld by courts. In an interview to a private TV channel, foreign minister SalmanKhurshid acknowledged it was possible Indian courts might disagree with the written clarification he gave to the Italian government that the death penalty would not apply in the Italian marines' case. In that event, as he put it, his clarification would be "wrong".

Courts may not accept India’s word to Italy on marines, Khurshid says - The Times of India

 

[Kloitra]

Courts may not accept India’s word to Italy on marines, Khurshid says

NEW DELHI: India's "assurance" to the Italian government that the Italian marines standing trial for killing two Indian fishermen may not be upheld by courts. In an interview to a private TV channel, foreign minister SalmanKhurshid acknowledged it was possible Indian courts might disagree with the written clarification he gave to the Italian government that the death penalty would not apply in the Italian marines' case. In that event, as he put it, his clarification would be "wrong".

Courts may not accept India’s word to Italy on marines, Khurshid says - The Times of India

In Indian judicial system, death penalty is rarely given, and is said to be given in rarest of the rare cases. No one is expecting death penalty in this case, whatever the foreign minister says in the media.

 

[Viper0011.]

Fck you Krait.

Anyway I commend India, ya really showed diplomatic gall by detaining their diplomat and everything but my question for you krait is did the congress government only act because of the huge public backlash along with the elections on the horizon?? Or is this going to be the time when 100 years from now people will look back and say, "this was the moment India realized its true potential"??

This is the result of a strong economy, a growing market and the military resulted or sponsored by US, the American industrial complex. I think if this was the US marines, they'd have the same attitude. When the jobs were getting outsources SILLY by the American businessmen, no one cared to look beyond the $$ sign coming back as 'cheap labor'. Welcome to the 21st century, where India is going to stick a DI** up your you know what!! A game of outsourcing the American jobs (13 millions of them), well played by India and received by the American public that was .....blind folded?

 

[FarazUSA]

This is the result of a strong economy, a growing market and the military resulted or sponsored by US, the American industrial complex. I think if this was the US marines, they'd have the same attitude. When the jobs were getting outsources SILLY by the American businessmen, no one cared to look beyond the $$ sign coming back as 'cheap labor'. Welcome to the 21st century, where India is going to stick a DI** up your you know what!! A game of outsourcing the American jobs (13 millions of them), well played by India and received by the American public that was .....blind folded?

I for some reason sometimes ponder why we could not get all those outsourced call centre +IT jobs with such a large english speaking population even after being ally of yanks for such a long time? It would have been great boost to our economy and mass employment.

 

[Viper0011.]

I for some reason sometimes ponder why we could not get all those outsourced call centre +IT jobs with such a large english speaking population even after being ally of yanks for such a long time? It would have been great boost to our economy and mass employment.

The Western businessmen had approached Pakistani government pre and post 2002. Apparently, your government wanted bribe in hundreds of millions to setup IT and other centers there. Instead of welcoming the investment and give these guys tax breaks, benefits, etc. It's crazy how your corrupt leaders function there. I'd welcome any opportunity that helps my people prosper in life. Asking bribe in this case in just crazy!

Also, If I, as an American or as a 'Western' man feels like I'll get killed the moment I land in Pakistan (which is incorrect with the exception of Karachi these days), how would I invest my money? Here's what'll get you the call centers, the IT jobs and the investment:
1) Tolerant society, no militants sitting on the street burning American flags or anything like that.
2) Education, Education and Education. This is your road to success.
3) Nationalism: You guys are divided as heck, in casts, parties, sects.....do you ever realize if there was no Pakistan....you'd be a part of minority muslims in India??? Indians represent INDIA first. Everywhere they go and even when they hate each other. You guys needs that. Otherwise you'll never be true to your country. I'll do anything for my personal growth or betterment but I'll never go against the American interest. In fact, anyone trying to do something bad in front of me to the US, will have to go over me to get to the US....its that simple. We are a United Nation. You guys are too busy in trying to find issues with each other.
3) PLEASE realize the Americans have been your allies since your country was created. The negative image needs to stop.
4) Elect the right people who'll make the right policies for YOU THE PEOPLE. Not for their accounts offshore!!
A society that has party, sects and militias belonging to parties....isn't really a good place to invest into. Look at Lahore, they've made sure that the security's situation is optimal. No gangs, parties or its allies are allowed to 'take over' the city. I was there not too long ago on a trip to Asia. I was very impressed. But it needs to be shown to the rest of the world to eliminate the negativity. There is work to do on your guys' part as a nation. Make Pakistan a better place to live with peace and the $$ will follow. Event he Phillipines is a growing economy and they have everything, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists..etc

 

[wild_fire1979]

I for some reason sometimes ponder why we could not get all those outsourced call centre +IT jobs with such a large english speaking population even after being ally of yanks for such a long time? It would have been great boost to our economy and mass employment.

Its an image issue. When all the western media shows Pakistanis burning American flag and shouting "Death To America", it is difficult to invest in such an environment. Cause the investor does not know whether his/her investment would be safe. What if the power balance changes and suddenly you have a power bloc which does not allow the business to continue. This results in them not putting in their money.

I don't understand Pakistanis, they all will go to the streets and shout death to america but given a chance will be the first one to immigrate to it.

 

[Subho]

 

[Sergi]

The Western businessmen had approached Pakistani government pre and post 2002. Apparently, your government wanted bribe in hundreds of millions to setup IT and other centers there. Instead of welcoming the investment and give these guys tax breaks, benefits, etc. It's crazy how your corrupt leaders function there. I'd welcome any opportunity that helps my people prosper in life. Asking bribe in this case in just crazy!

Also, If I, as an American or as a 'Western' man feels like I'll get killed the moment I land in Pakistan (which is incorrect with the exception of Karachi these days), how would I invest my money? Here's what'll get you the call centers, the IT jobs and the investment:
1) Tolerant society, no militants sitting on the street burning American flags or anything like that.
2) Education, Education and Education. This is your road to success.
3) Nationalism: You guys are divided as heck, in casts, parties, sects.....do you ever realize if there was no Pakistan....you'd be a part of minority muslims in India??? Indians represent INDIA first. Everywhere they go and even when they hate each other. You guys needs that. Otherwise you'll never be true to your country. I'll do anything for my personal growth or betterment but I'll never go against the American interest. In fact, anyone trying to do something bad in front of me to the US, will have to go over me to get to the US....its that simple. We are a United Nation. You guys are too busy in trying to find issues with each other.
3) PLEASE realize the Americans have been your allies since your country was created. The negative image needs to stop.
4) Elect the right people who'll make the right policies for YOU THE PEOPLE. Not for their accounts offshore!!
A society that has party, sects and militias belonging to parties....isn't really a good place to invest into. Look at Lahore, they've made sure that the security's situation is optimal. No gangs, parties or its allies are allowed to 'take over' the city. I was there not too long ago on a trip to Asia. I was very impressed. But it needs to be shown to the rest of the world to eliminate the negativity. There is work to do on your guys' part as a nation. Make Pakistan a better place to live with peace and the $$ will follow. Event he Phillipines is a growing economy and they have everything, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists..etc

You speak like a non resident Pakistani .....but nicely put

Even though I don't like Pakistan a stable Pakistan is good for entire Asia. So good luck with that.

 

[janon]

This is the result of a strong economy, a growing market and the military resulted or sponsored by US, the American industrial complex.

Are you talking about India? India's military is NOT sponsored by the US. Not a single penny of it. We pay through our nose for what we buy from the US, or for that matter, by any other country.

The Indian military is sponsored by the Indian taxpayer. Nobody else.

 

[rubyjackass]

The public backlash was there but more than the public component was the involvement of the Supreme Court of India. ANy govt. be it cunt-gress or the BJP can't do **** when it comes to aPex court having it's way..

An example..
The supreme Court wanted CNG in New Delhi to be implemented in 10 years. The order was passed in 89 i think.. u know what was the state after those 10 years ? probably maybe 2 CNG filling stations were there in entire Delhi.. inspite of widespread chaos and burning of govt.property and total paralysis of the road communication of the capital city due to strikes and whatnot, Supreme Court didnt budge.. and finally agreed to give an year extension to Delhi Govt. The result we all can see.. hundreds of CNG filling stations came up overnight... even the entire delhi transporters association which has a considerable pull with Delhi Govt couldn't do anything other than switching to CNG

To be honest, the Supreme Court made a boo-boo letting the marines go back without sufficient guarantee. The sole guarantee was the guy who had diplomatic immunity. If you see the report on the hearing of Italian ambassador after the 'no return' announcement, our Chief Justice Altamas Kabir reportedly said with anger 'We don't think you have immunity'. Which means, in the worst case, if Italy was willing to sacrifice ties with India, and they managed to convince some International law body like ICJ that he did have immunity, then Supreme Court would have lost its face.

The only card India had was to cut ties with Italy and India used it very wisely, with perfect timing and escalation, I might say. We did not seriously strain our relations. There was enough threat when Indian ambassador did not take his position in Rome(and at the correct juncture). And Italy took the hint wisely.

Hence the point is Italy gave up only because they are afraid for our ties. Please don't bring politics here. India's MEA once again was at its best. Simple truth.

 

[rubyjackass]

I think we could do without the chest-thumping though.

I think the chest-thumping was a very important part of the strategy to bring the marines back. Indian newspapers like TOI must have scared the $h!t out of their diplomats. As usual these papers also will contain comments to the effect that Sonia Gandhi let the marines go because the marines were her countrymen. Any Italian diplomat reading this would have felt sick. I mean, it would look like the Indian government is risking a fall because of the issue.

but let us take it on the positive side, that they accepted the strong appeal and what ever caused them to return shows only a gesture if not good will one. If they were ready for not returning the marines, they would have not returned it by any chance.

True, we should appreciate the gesture, instead of berating them saying they did it for some money or trade.They overcame domestic opposition to do what was right, so that our ties won't be affected.

 

[Screambowl]

To be honest, the Supreme Court made a boo-boo letting the marines go back without sufficient guarantee. The sole guarantee was the guy who had diplomatic immunity. If you see the report on the hearing of Italian ambassador after the 'no return' announcement, our Chief Justice Altamas Kabir reportedly said with anger 'We don't think you have immunity'. Which means, in the worst case, if Italy was willing to sacrifice ties with India, and they managed to convince some International law body like ICJ that he did have immunity, then Supreme Court would have lost its face.

The only card India had was to cut ties with Italy and India used it very wisely, with perfect timing and escalation, I might say. We did not seriously strain our relations. There was enough threat when Indian ambassador did not take his position in Rome(and at the correct juncture). And Italy took the hint wisely.

Hence the point is Italy gave up only because they are afraid for our ties. Please don't bring politics here. India's MEA once again was at its best. Simple truth.

to be honest MEA does nothing. It is the Indian Bureaucracy which gives orders to them and action plan. MEA people are only the representatives. In this matter it was purely Indian Bureaucracy which was directing the action and showed backbone. In serious matters like such is always handled by Bureaucrats and not diplomats.

 

[rubyjackass]

to be honest MEA does nothing. It is the Indian Bureaucracy which gives orders to them and action plan. MEA people are only the representatives. In this matter it was purely Indian Bureaucracy which was directing the action and showed backbone. In serious matters like such is always handled by Bureaucrats and not diplomats.

I believe you misunderstood the meaning of ministry.
All diplomats except those in the full ambassador positions are bureaucrats of IFS cadre(or those who are on deputation). And MEA means not just the foreign minister. It carries with it a whole weight of its bureaucracy. IFS is MEA.

 

[Screambowl]

I believe you misunderstood the meaning of ministry.
All diplomats except those in the full ambassador positions are bureaucrats of IFS cadre(or those who are on deputation). And MEA means not just the foreign minister. It carries with it a whole weight of its bureaucracy.

lets us not discuss about the posts and cadres here. but what I meant is, those who go for IFS are only representatives where as policy makers and all who does that are from administrative service.

as a whole yes you are right any one can become a diplomat but I was talking ministry wise