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Islam and democracy

Saleem

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To understand this discourse, one needs to know the point of divergence between Islam and democracy and how certain practices in democracy may not be acceptable to Islam.

THE discourse on Islam and democracy has always been vibrant, whether it is in the Muslim world or even among scholars and practitioners of the democracy in the West.

The reason behind this is that Islam, as a religion, has some basic principles that might not be compatible to the sets of idealisms pursued by democracy. However, in order to understand this discussion, one needs to know the point of divergence between Islam and democracy and can practices in democracy be acceptable in Islam?

Basically, there are three perspectives on the relationship between Islam and democracy.

First, there are those who reject democracy outrightly, claiming that democracy and its secular nature are actually legacies of western imperialism on Muslims states.

Second, there are groups that embrace democracy in its entirety, believing that religion should remain outside the political sphere.

Finally, there are those who differentiate democracy as a political mechanism for forming legitimate governments from it being a set of values and principles for individuals to hold on to.

Modern democracy is a political reality that besieges most free nations today. It has evolved through history since the ancient Greek period, resurfaced in importance and modernised during the revolutions in America, Britain and France and further post-modernised through periods of world wars and the new world order.

Democracy also has many forms ranging from parliamentary, federalism and America’s very own. Some may be particular in its process and forms but many modern democracies today are very concerned about the fundamentals of democratic principles: sovereignty of the people, individual liberty and equality.

Leon P. Baradat, in his book, Political Ideologies: Their Origins and Impact, categorises these as process democrats and principles democrats. Baradat explains that process democrats view democracy as a form of decision-making and the rule of majority.

They claim that there is no real philosophy or theory of democracy. Principle democrats on the other hand, argue that democracy has a strong theoretical foundation and the procedure or process of democracy is secondary to the philosophical objectives of democracy.

In Islam, politics remains in the realms of the religion. This reflects the exact feature of the religion as a way of life that encompasses all areas of human interactions including his/her interaction with Allah the Almighty and his/her interaction with fellow human beings.

Therefore, politics in Islam must meet the objectives of the Shari’ah (Maqasid Shari’ah) which includes the preservation of the religion, life, mind, offspring and property.

In analysing the correlation between Islam and politics, Allal Al-Fassi explains that: “The general higher objective of Islamic Law is to populate and civilise the earth and preserve the order of peaceful coexistence therein; to ensure the earth ongoing well-being and usefulness through the piety of those who have been placed there as God’s vicegerents; to ensure that people conduct themselves justly, with moral probity and with integrity in thought and action, and that they reform that which needs reform on earth, tap its resources, and plan for the good of all.”

Several Islamic scholars believe that the essence of democratic process is actually compatible with Islamic principles. Prof Khurshid Ahmad, in his take on Islam and democracy, argues that Muslims should understand democracy as “rights of a people to self-determination and self-fulfillment” and this is in line with Islam. Meanwhile, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradhawi firmly states:

“The tools and guarantees created by democracy are as close as can ever be to the realisation of the political principles brought to this earth by Islam to put a leash on the ambitions and whims of rulers.”

It is further agreed by many contemporary Islamic scholars that democratic tools and principles of elections, consultations, consensus and independent reasoning are also central in Islam.

The acceptance of democracy in Islam has largely been on its basis as a political process and form of political system. Islamic scholars see no problem in recognising the term democracy in this specific Islamic viewpoint. Even principles of equality, justice and human dignity are not alien to Islam.

However, the most important element that should surround this relationship between Islam and democracy is the understanding of the Tawhidic framework that ultimate sovereignty only belongs to God and the roles of human beings as His khalifah (vicegerents) on earth.

Realising this point of departure on the principles of liberalism, secularism and people sovereignty in democracy from the absolute sovereignty of God in Islam, how then can Islam position itself in modern democracy today?

One thing for sure, Muslims must realise that democracy is a mechanism, not a destination and not even a destiny. Although it is a political reality especially in those areas of the Muslim world that were once colonies of Western imperialists, there must be boundaries to the acceptance of this reality.

Throughout history, we have seen failures of democratic governments which brought about discussions on new forms of democracy, hence indicating that countries have freedom to determine democratic practices suitable to them. Even western democracy was born out of the polemics and conflicts that plagued the western world.

Therefore, on positioning Islam in democracy of the Muslim world today, Muslims must be critical enough to adopt the democratic principles that would best suit the conditions, history and heritage of the Muslim world.

On the other hand, Muslims’ acceptance of democracy as a tool for effective participatory in politics and means for governance must be acknowledged and respected.

Weaknesses and failure of democracy that we see happening in some parts of the Muslim world today are not about the compatibility between Islam and democracy but more about those who destroy the system under the pretext of democratic rights and liberties.

> Enizahura Abdul Aziz is Senior Research Officer at Ikim’s Centre for Study of Shari’ah, Law and Politics. The views expressed here are entirely the author’s own.

Islam and democracy - IKIM Views | The Star Online
 
oh bas ker do yar, tang aa giya hon Islam or democracy ki debate sun sun ker !!
 
islam is incompatible with the findamental principles of democracy:

1) Democracy promotes free speech, while islam strictly condemns free speech (example - riots that happen when talking drawing muslim prophet)

2) Democracy promotes freedom of religion, while islam strictly bans other religions from practicing (example - most muslim countries have converted non-muslims forcefull or unforcefully, you cannot convert out of islam if you are no longer a believer)

3) Democracy promotes equality of all humans, while islam strictly only promotes equality of muslims, while treating non-muslims as inferior (pick up the case of any non-muslims in muslim countries)

Because of this fundamental difference, all muslim countries including Pakistan (to the arab spring) have been struggling with the rather simple subject of democracy since time immemorial. The only time true democracy can come to these countries is when they let go of islam, which will be never...
 
islam is incompatible with the findamental principles of democracy:

1) Democracy promotes free speech, while islam strictly condemns free speech (example - riots that happen when talking drawing muslim prophet)

2) Democracy promotes freedom of religion, while islam strictly bans other religions from practicing (example - most muslim countries have converted non-muslims forcefull or unforcefully, you cannot convert out of islam if you are no longer a believer)

3) Democracy promotes equality of all humans, while islam strictly only promotes equality of muslims, while treating non-muslims as inferior (pick up the case of any non-muslims in muslim countries)

Because of this fundamental difference, all muslim countries including Pakistan (to the arab spring) have been struggling with the rather simple subject of democracy since time immemorial. The only time true democracy can come to these countries is when they let go of islam, which will be never...

All systems of governance have their own merits.

In the case of Islam , the hard ' take -it- or - leave -it approach is a recent phenomenon in the modern day context. Arising more out of the grudge against the western world than anything else.

In my view, had everything about Islam been wrong it wouldn't have survived these centuries. In the current context with all its faults democracy appears to be the best option for the governed to have their say.

The major players in the ismalic world still hold on to feudalistic methods of governance - this needs to change. The West for their own selfish reasons selectively targets one group of nations while ignoring others who are ' guilty' of the same crimes. Hint : Oil.

The version of Islam practiced by Muslim countries in the 50s, 60s & 70s was a lot more tolerant. Muslims back then were no less pious than those today.

This is the choice Islamic nations need to make. The hard line version which is not appreciated by a majority of Muslims is doing more harm than good.

It would therefore be wrong to expect them to give up a religion for a way of governance.

My views.
 
All systems of governance have their own merits.

In the case of Islam , the hard ' take -it- or - leave -it approach is a recent phenomenon in the modern day context. Arising more out of the grudge against the western world than anything else.

In my view, had everything about Islam been wrong it wouldn't have survived these centuries. In the current context with all its faults democracy appears to be the best option for the governed to have their say.

The major players in the ismalic world still hold on to feudalistic methods of governance - this needs to change. The West for their own selfish reasons selectively targets one group of nations while ignoring others who are ' guilty' of the same crimes. Hint : Oil.

The version of Islam practiced by Muslim countries in the 50s, 60s & 70s was a lot more tolerant. Muslims back then were no less pious than those today.

This is the choice Islamic nations need to make. The hard line version which is not appreciated by a majority of Muslims is doing more harm than good.

It would therefore be wrong to expect them to give up a religion for a way of governance.

My views.

islam is incompatible with the findamental principles of democracy:

1) Democracy promotes free speech, while islam strictly condemns free speech (example - riots that happen when talking drawing muslim prophet)

2) Democracy promotes freedom of religion, while islam strictly bans other religions from practicing (example - most muslim countries have converted non-muslims forcefull or unforcefully, you cannot convert out of islam if you are no longer a believer)

3) Democracy promotes equality of all humans, while islam strictly only promotes equality of muslims, while treating non-muslims as inferior (pick up the case of any non-muslims in muslim countries)

Because of this fundamental difference, all muslim countries including Pakistan (to the arab spring) have been struggling with the rather simple subject of democracy since time immemorial. The only time true democracy can come to these countries is when they let go of islam, which will be never...

I will take your points one by one.

1. It is a misconception that Islam is against freedom of speech. As regards speaking against Holy Prophet is concerned. It is each country prerogative to make rules. Like in many countries freedom of speech ends when it comes to Holocaust. Likewise, Muslim countries have a rule that their prophet is to be regarded. I think they have the right to make their rule. Furthermore, most the western countries have rules that material or words, which can hurt someone else feeling is not allowed. This should be implemented against those also who try to mock Islam. If Muslims demand that it is very much their right.

2. In Islam there is no forcing. Adoption of Islam as religion has to be voluntarily. If someone is forcibly converting non-muslims to Islam, then it is an individuals act and not something propagated by Islam. Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.

3. This is again a misconception. In islam whereever matter of human rights and equality has been discussed, it has not been addressed to Muslims but to Bani Adam or Humans. Again individual act cannot be attributed to the preaching of Islam.

What is happening in Muslim countries specially Arab countries has rightly been pointed out by @third eye : The OIL

Likewise his stance on Hard-Take it of Leave it. I also agree with his other points as that is what majority of muslims think.
 
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I will take your points one by one.

1. It is a misconception that Islam is against freedom of speech. As regards speaking against Holy Prophet is concerned. It is each country prerogative to make rules. Like in many countries freedom of speech ends when it comes to Holocaust. Likewise, Muslim countries have a rule that their prophet is to be regarded. I think they have the right to make their rule. Furthermore, most the western countries have rules that material or words, which can hurt someone else feeling is not allowed. This should be implemented against those also who try to mock Islam. If Muslims demand that it is very much their right.

2. In Islam there is no forcing. Adoption of Islam as religion has to be voluntarily. If someone is forcibly converting non-muslims to Islam, then it is an individuals act and not something propagated by Islam. Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.

3. This is again a misconception. In islam whereever matter of human rights and equality has been discussed, it has not been addressed to Muslims but to Bani Adam or Humans. Again individual act cannot be attributed to the preaching of Islam.

What is happening in Muslim countries specially Arab countries has rightly been pointed out by @third eye : The OIL

Likewise his stance on Hard-Take it of Leave it. I also agree with his other points as that is what majority of muslims think.

I disagree with all your points:

1) The holocaust argument has been destroyed many times over in the internet. Holocaust is a historical fact, while prophet of islam is fictitious/religion. while muslims might respect/believe in their prohpet, non-,muslims dont. Why should non-muslims not have the right to say that/express that? Why do non-muslims (like me) have to be forced to respect/believe a figure they dont believe even exists (as far as their religious/personal concerns go)? We (non-muslims) dont believe in the quran, so why are we being forced to follow orders given in the quran regarding the prophet of islam?

2) How convenient, why not? And the funny thing that arises in this situation is, if a man/woman no longer believes in islam, and says this out loud, he/she will be charged and framed in the point #1 in the law of speaking against islam. Also:

"Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.".... LOL how hilarious, that is one of the most fundamental freedoms, forcing someone to follow a religion when he/she no longer believes so? you might as well have rephrased it to "Islam does not believe in freedom of religion"...

3) I really dont care about Islam/Quran, to me (a non-muslim) those are concepts that are false/do not exist. Your islam/quran could be the most wonderful and egalitarian religion in the world, with even gay rights to make sure the homosexuals dont get left out. What matter and affects me is the actions, rather than the thoughts/ideas, and the actions of muslims are appaling. I am sure Hitler might say in his defence that his thoughts/ideas were revolutionary, but at the end of the day he is only going to be judged for his actions
 
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I will take your points one by one.

1. It is a misconception that Islam is against freedom of speech. As regards speaking against Holy Prophet is concerned. It is each country prerogative to make rules. Like in many countries freedom of speech ends when it comes to Holocaust. Likewise, Muslim countries have a rule that their prophet is to be regarded. I think they have the right to make their rule. Furthermore, most the western countries have rules that material or words, which can hurt someone else feeling is not allowed. This should be implemented against those also who try to mock Islam. If Muslims demand that it is very much their right.

2. In Islam there is no forcing. Adoption of Islam as religion has to be voluntarily. If someone is forcibly converting non-muslims to Islam, then it is an individuals act and not something propagated by Islam. Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.

3. This is again a misconception. In islam whereever matter of human rights and equality has been discussed, it has not been addressed to Muslims but to Bani Adam or Humans. Again individual act cannot be attributed to the preaching of Islam.

What is happening in Muslim countries specially Arab countries has rightly been pointed out by @third eye : The OIL

Likewise his stance on Hard-Take it of Leave it. I also agree with his other points as that is what majority of muslims think.

Let's ask you on a personal basis. :azn: I can't represent all Hindus, you can't represent all Muslims.

1. Freedom of speech - Say you draw a Hindu God and make a cartoon in a very demeaning manner. I will be offended. I will be pissed off but that will be all. But if I draw a very respectful drawing depicting (you know who) him, what will be your reaction?

2. Freedom of religion - Say Tom has been forced by (Say) Mahmud to convert by force - gun to head and all :D) Now after Mahmud dies due to an accident, Tom reverts back to (say) Buddhism, he becomes an apostate - does he not?. Besides as a non Muslim he can't practice his faith openly in any Islamic land...but let's not go into that(The Pact).

3. Equality - In the Holy Quran there are some strict divisions of humankind - namely Momeen, Mushkrikeen, Munafiq etc. For example, a Muslim can't marry a non Muslim and can't have a legitimate (sexual) relationship with him/her(except if the woman is a slave captured as War booty. There is Dhimmi, there is Jizya - and all this is well scripted. There are rules of conduct between believers and un-believers(for example At-Taubah). Then there are even differences among the unbelievers - like the people of the Book, and the pagans. I am leaving the 'swine ' and other dirty references out of the discussion as I have only read the Quran and not the Hadiths.

:angel:
 
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1. Freedom of speech - Say you draw a Hindu God and make a cartoon in a very demeaning manner. I will be offended. I will be pissed off but that will be all. But if I draw a very respectful drawing depicting (you know who) him, what will be your reaction?

Islam does not preach of mocking other religions. Drawing of human figures is already not allowed in Islam. Drawing of Holy Prophets imaginary picture may result in some one with lesser knowledge to end up worshiping. Which is strictly forbidden in Islam. Muslims will feel offended if caricatures of Jesus or Moses are made. When one religion does not advocate mockery of there religion, it is their right that their norms of religion be regarded. Is it too much they are asking for? Why is it necessary for the vanguards of freedom of speech to touch sensitive religious subjects?

2. Freedom of religion - Say Tom has been forced by (Say) Mahmud to convert by force - gun to head and all ) Now after Mahmud dies due to an accident, Tom reverts back to (say) Buddhism, he becomes an apostate - does he not?. Besides as a non Muslim he can't practice his faith openly in any Islamic land...but let's not go into that(The Pact).

In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully.

3. Equality - In the Holy Quran there are some strict divisions of humankind - namely Momeen, Mushkrikeen, Munafiq etc. For example, a Muslim can't marry a non Muslim and can't have a legitimate (sexual) relationship with him/her(except if the woman is a slave captured as War booty. There is Dhimmi, there is Jizya - and all this is well scripted. There are rules of conduct between believers and un-believers(for example At-Taubah). Then there are even differences among the unbelievers - like the people of the Book, and the pagans. I am leaving the 'swine ' and other dirty references out of the discussion as I have only read the Quran and not the Hadiths.

Momin is a term given to people with certain set of qualities, its not just by embracing Islam one becomes Momin. Mushrik is the one who does not believe in one God and believes polytheism. Munafiq is just a word corresponding with hypocrite. In India you have Nationals and NRI. Such terms are given to define a set of people conforming to certain criterion. It in does not mean discrimination.

Every religion has its rules and Islamic rule is that a Muslim woman cannot marry non muslim. Muslim male can marry a woman who belongs to a monotheist religion and to be specific those religion, which have been bestowed with Holy Books by God; without asking her to change her belief. However, the off springs have to be taught Islamic values. In case all the other cases muslim men can marry non muslim women after they willingly convert to Islam. A muslim male cannot marry a women while she maintains her polytheism. Again a religious rule, which every religion can have. Like in Hinduism having cow meat is not allowed. No one should object on this belief if it is followed.

As regard Jaziya is concerned it is a tax against which
1. Freedom of speech - Say you draw a Hindu God and make a cartoon in a very demeaning manner. I will be offended. I will be pissed off but that will be all. But if I draw a very respectful drawing depicting (you know who) him, what will be your reaction?

Islam does not preach of mocking other religions. Drawing of human figures is already not allowed in Islam. Drawing of Holy Prophets imaginary picture may result in some one with lesser knowledge to end up worshiping. Which is strictly forbidden in Islam. Muslims will feel offended if caricatures of Jesus or Moses are made. When one religion does not advocate mockery of there religion, it is their right that their norms of religion be regarded. Is it too much they are asking for? Why is it necessary for the vanguards of freedom of speech to touch sensitive religious subjects?

2. Freedom of religion - Say Tom has been forced by (Say) Mahmud to convert by force - gun to head and all ) Now after Mahmud dies due to an accident, Tom reverts back to (say) Buddhism, he becomes an apostate - does he not?. Besides as a non Muslim he can't practice his faith openly in any Islamic land...but let's not go into that(The Pact).

In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully.

3. Equality - In the Holy Quran there are some strict divisions of humankind - namely Momeen, Mushkrikeen, Munafiq etc. For example, a Muslim can't marry a non Muslim and can't have a legitimate (sexual) relationship with him/her(except if the woman is a slave captured as War booty. There is Dhimmi, there is Jizya - and all this is well scripted. There are rules of conduct between believers and un-believers(for example At-Taubah). Then there are even differences among the unbelievers - like the people of the Book, and the pagans. I am leaving the 'swine ' and other dirty references out of the discussion as I have only read the Quran and not the Hadiths.

Momin is a term given to people with certain set of qualities, its not just by embracing Islam one becomes Momin. Mushrik is the one who does not believe in one God and believes polytheism. Munafiq is just a word corresponding with hypocrite. In India you have Nationals and NRI. Such terms are given to define a set of people conforming to certain criterion. It in does not mean discrimination.

Every religion has its rules and Islamic rule is that a Muslim woman cannot marry non muslim. Muslim male can marry a woman who belongs to a monotheist religion and to be specific those religion, which have been bestowed with Holy Books by God; without asking her to change her belief. However, the off springs have to be taught Islamic values. In case all the other cases muslim men can marry non muslim women after they willingly convert to Islam. A muslim male cannot marry a women while she maintains her polytheism. Again a religious rule, which every religion can have. Like in Hinduism having cow meat is not allowed. No one should object on this belief if it is followed.

As regard Jaziya is concerned it is a tax against which protection was provided to the people of other religion living in an Islamic country. On the other hand muslims also have a tax in the name of Zakat. I don’t think there is any discrimination by using a different name. In present day taxation system different type of taxes are imposed by government on different type of business and individuals. If Islam has given a different name to the tax imposed on a certain category of people, how does it mean that it is discrimination.


I am happy that you have come up with questions. Global harmony can be achieved through discussions and not through emotional and impetus reactions.
 
Islam does not preach of mocking other religions. Drawing of human figures is already not allowed in Islam. Drawing of Holy Prophets imaginary picture may result in some one with lesser knowledge to end up worshiping. Which is strictly forbidden in Islam. Muslims will feel offended if caricatures of Jesus or Moses are made. When one religion does not advocate mockery of there religion, it is their right that their norms of religion be regarded. Is it too much they are asking for? Why is it necessary for the vanguards of freedom of speech to touch sensitive religious subjects?



In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully.



Momin is a term given to people with certain set of qualities, its not just by embracing Islam one becomes Momin. Mushrik is the one who does not believe in one God and believes polytheism. Munafiq is just a word corresponding with hypocrite. In India you have Nationals and NRI. Such terms are given to define a set of people conforming to certain criterion. It in does not mean discrimination.

Every religion has its rules and Islamic rule is that a Muslim woman cannot marry non muslim. Muslim male can marry a woman who belongs to a monotheist religion and to be specific those religion, which have been bestowed with Holy Books by God; without asking her to change her belief. However, the off springs have to be taught Islamic values. In case all the other cases muslim men can marry non muslim women after they willingly convert to Islam. A muslim male cannot marry a women while she maintains her polytheism. Again a religious rule, which every religion can have. Like in Hinduism having cow meat is not allowed. No one should object on this belief if it is followed.

As regard Jaziya is concerned it is a tax against which

Islam does not preach of mocking other religions. Drawing of human figures is already not allowed in Islam. Drawing of Holy Prophets imaginary picture may result in some one with lesser knowledge to end up worshiping. Which is strictly forbidden in Islam. Muslims will feel offended if caricatures of Jesus or Moses are made. When one religion does not advocate mockery of there religion, it is their right that their norms of religion be regarded. Is it too much they are asking for? Why is it necessary for the vanguards of freedom of speech to touch sensitive religious subjects?



In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully.



Momin is a term given to people with certain set of qualities, its not just by embracing Islam one becomes Momin. Mushrik is the one who does not believe in one God and believes polytheism. Munafiq is just a word corresponding with hypocrite. In India you have Nationals and NRI. Such terms are given to define a set of people conforming to certain criterion. It in does not mean discrimination.

Every religion has its rules and Islamic rule is that a Muslim woman cannot marry non muslim. Muslim male can marry a woman who belongs to a monotheist religion and to be specific those religion, which have been bestowed with Holy Books by God; without asking her to change her belief. However, the off springs have to be taught Islamic values. In case all the other cases muslim men can marry non muslim women after they willingly convert to Islam. A muslim male cannot marry a women while she maintains her polytheism. Again a religious rule, which every religion can have. Like in Hinduism having cow meat is not allowed. No one should object on this belief if it is followed.

As regard Jaziya is concerned it is a tax against which protection was provided to the people of other religion living in an Islamic country. On the other hand muslims also have a tax in the name of Zakat. I don’t think there is any discrimination by using a different name. In present day taxation system different type of taxes are imposed by government on different type of business and individuals. If Islam has given a different name to the tax imposed on a certain category of people, how does it mean that it is discrimination.


I am happy that you have come up with questions. Global harmony can be achieved through discussions and not through emotional and impetus reactions.
"I am happy that you have come up with questions. Global harmony can be achieved through discussions and not through emotional and impetus reactions." - This is the only statement that I can agree with :)
"Drawing of human figures is already not allowed in Islam." - There are many Muslim painters(example MF Hussein) But you missed the point in this case - thing is if someone draws something, what will you do?

"If Islam has given a different name to the tax imposed on a certain category of people, how does it mean that it is discrimination." - There is huge difference between Jizya and Zakat. In case of Zakat a Muslim must be reasonably affluent(Nisab), but in case of Jizya - poor or not, one has to pay. In Zakat the amount in fixed but in Jizya the upper limit is not fixed.
"In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully." - Does not matter. Once he is a Muslim.... If he leaves, what's his punishment?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/278128-islam-democracy.html#ixzz2f2MSjI3G

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/278128-islam-democracy.html#ixzz2f2LMZa5C


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/278128-islam-democracy.html#ixzz2f2K1BMpC
 
I disagree with all your points:

1) The holocaust argument has been destroyed many times over in the internet. Holocaust is a historical fact, while prophet of islam is fictitious/religion. while muslims might respect/believe in their prohpet, non-,muslims dont. Why should non-muslims not have the right to say that/express that? Why do non-muslims (like me) have to be forced to respect/believe a figure they dont believe even exists (as far as their religious/personal concerns go)? We (non-muslims) dont believe in the quran, so why are we being forced to follow orders given in the quran regarding the prophet of islam?


1. Non Muslims do have the right NOT to believe in Islam BUT you do NOT Have a right to abuse Islam and Prophet (PBUH).


as far as your definition of Islam as fiction then Your Hinduism is far grater fiction to us with animals being gods. Similarly your definition terms all religions as fiction.

So I think your belief or disbelief doesn't affect any of these then when all are fiction then look for betterment of human in these fictions.

]) How convenient, why not? And the funny thing that arises in this situation is, if a man/woman no longer believes in islam, and says this out loud, he/she will be charged and framed in the point #1 in the law of speaking against islam. Also:

When he or she no longer believe they can move away but they can NOT claim the Islamic credit line simple as that.

And there is NO such charge in Quran against them.

"Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.".... LOL how hilarious, that is one of the most fundamental freedoms, forcing someone to follow a religion when he/she no longer believes so? you might as well have rephrased it to "Islam does not believe in freedom of religion"...
You can revert we have no issue with that but after reverting you can NOT claim anything Islamic. Simple rule.

We have freedom of religion BUT we don't have any freedom for polluting our faith by non-Muslims or to say by Hindus.

You cant claim to be a Muslim while at the same time worshiping a Hindu deity



3) I really dont care about Islam/Quran, to me (a non-muslim) those are concepts that are false/do not exist. Your islam/quran could be the most wonderful and egalitarian religion in the world, with even gay rights to make sure the homosexuals dont get left out. What matter and affects me is the actions, rather than the thoughts/ideas, and the actions of muslims are appaling. I am sure Hitler might say in his defence that his thoughts/ideas were revolutionary, but at the end of the day he is only going to be judged for his actions

The same can be said about Hinduism and every religion hence the reality is that everyone considers own faith as superior and better.
 
1. Non Muslims do have the right NOT to believe in Islam BUT you do NOT Have a right to abuse Islam and Prophet (PBUH).
most o your post is BS i dont agree with, but i will focus on this one.

in pakistan, it is a criminal offence to say the prophet of islam does not exist even for non-muslims (under blasphemy laws). why should non-muslims in pakistan be forced to acknowledge this ?

Also, why is there a death sentence for converting out of islam (apostacy)? why keep muslims by force if they dont believ in your religion anymore?
 
"If Islam has given a different name to the tax imposed on a certain category of people, how does it mean that it is discrimination." - There is huge difference between Jizya and Zakat. In case of Zakat a Muslim must be reasonably affluent(Nisab), but in case of Jizya - poor or not, one has to pay. In Zakat the amount in fixed but in Jizya the upper limit is not fixed.
I think again there is an element of some individual's interpretation. In today's time which muslim country is taking Jaziya from non-muslims living in that country or forcing non-muslims to pay Jazia.
By the way there is no upper limit in Zakat.

"In the first place that conversion is not valid. Conversion to Islam has to be voluntarily and willfully." - Does not matter. Once he is a Muslim.... If he leaves, what's his punishment?
When conversion is invalid then there is no punishment, because the person has not embraced islam from heart. Bottom line is there is no force in conversion.

As regard drawings by Muslim artist. I never discussed individuals, I talked about the concept. Muslims are to abstain from alcohol but still there are many who consume liquor. Deviation is individual act. As per Islam violation of God's right (Hoqooq Allah) is between the violator and the God and that is upto him to excuse or not. However, rights of others (Haqooq ul Ebad0 will not be pardoned. So again who am I to comment of someones Haqooq Allah violation. For example adultery with consent is violation of Haqooq Allah and rape is violation of Haqooq ul Ibad.
 
islam is incompatible with the findamental principles of democracy:

1) Democracy promotes free speech, while islam strictly condemns free speech (example - riots that happen when talking drawing muslim prophet)

2) Democracy promotes freedom of religion, while islam strictly bans other religions from practicing (example - most muslim countries have converted non-muslims forcefull or unforcefully, you cannot convert out of islam if you are no longer a believer)

3) Democracy promotes equality of all humans, while islam strictly only promotes equality of muslims, while treating non-muslims as inferior (pick up the case of any non-muslims in muslim countries)

Because of this fundamental difference, all muslim countries including Pakistan (to the arab spring) have been struggling with the rather simple subject of democracy since time immemorial. The only time true democracy can come to these countries is when they let go of islam, which will be never...

I'm sorry but every single example you given is about the behaviour of todays muslims. It doesn't say anything about Islam and compatibility with democracy.
 
1. Non Muslims do have the right NOT to believe in Islam BUT you do NOT Have a right to abuse Islam and Prophet (PBUH).


as far as your definition of Islam as fiction then Your Hinduism is far grater fiction to us with animals being gods. Similarly your definition terms all religions as fiction.

So I think your belief or disbelief doesn't affect any of these then when all are fiction then look for betterment of human in these fictions.



When he or she no longer believe they can move away but they can NOT claim the Islamic credit line simple as that.

And there is NO such charge in Quran against them.


You can revert we have no issue with that but after reverting you can NOT claim anything Islamic. Simple rule.

We have freedom of religion BUT we don't have any freedom for polluting our faith by non-Muslims or to say by Hindus.

You cant claim to be a Muslim while at the same time worshiping a Hindu deity





The same can be said about Hinduism and every religion hence the reality is that everyone considers own faith as superior and better.

"Hinduism is far grater fiction to us with animals being gods" - I don't mind.
"You can revert we have no issue with that but after reverting you can NOT claim anything Islamic. Simple rule." - Chalo I thank God. :) At least you don't support stoning apostates.
"Hinduism and every religion hence the reality is that everyone considers own faith as superior and better" - Nope. If you are following a Dharmic faith - you not allowed to think yourself or your faith to be superior to others. :angel:

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/278128-islam-democracy.html#ixzz2f2Wa6H7t



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/278128-islam-democracy.html#ixzz2f2WM1Gr3

I think again there is an element of some individual's interpretation. In today's time which muslim country is taking Jaziya from non-muslims living in that country or forcing non-muslims to pay Jazia.
By the way there is no upper limit in Zakat.


When conversion is invalid then there is no punishment, because the person has not embraced islam from heart. Bottom line is there is no force in conversion.

As regard drawings by Muslim artist. I never discussed individuals, I talked about the concept. Muslims are to abstain from alcohol but still there are many who consume liquor. Deviation is individual act. As per Islam violation of God's right (Hoqooq Allah) is between the violator and the God and that is upto him to excuse or not. However, rights of others (Haqooq ul Ebad0 will not be pardoned. So again who am I to comment of someones Haqooq Allah violation. For example adultery with consent is violation of Haqooq Allah and rape is violation of Haqooq ul Ibad.

Deciding that is damn difficult - ain't it :azn:
 
"Hinduism is far grater fiction to us with animals being gods" - I don't mind.
"You can revert we have no issue with that but after reverting you can NOT claim anything Islamic. Simple rule." - Chalo I thank God. :) At least you don't support stoning apostates.
"Hinduism and every religion hence the reality is that everyone considers own faith as superior and better" - Nope. If you are following a Dharmic faith - you not allowed to think yourself or your faith to be superior to others. :angel:


Deciding that is damn difficult - ain't it :azn:

To decide what is right and what is wrong a gift has been given by God, which is Justice (Adl). It is due to this reason Islam does not support concept of clergy as a profession and each individual is required to do his own research. Anything contradictory to the basic teachings of Islam should better be avoided. When in doubt adopt safer course, which lies in the name of Islam (Peace)
 
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