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Is there any supersonic / hypersonic missile being developed by Pakistan?

acutally , a CM doesn't need to be fast but stealth. a supersonic missile can't fly at the tree-top-high making it easier to be detected by radars. moreover, it's ramjet engines would be targets that can not be missed by infrared seekers. so, although it's faster, it is easier to be intercepted.

secondly, i don't think babur is of the same class of tomahawk. tomahawk's is equipped with a semi-sealth turbofan engine and a GPS navigation system(a military version, more accurate and more difficult to jam). CMs without a accurate guidance system can only fly higher to aviod a clash and is more likely to miss it's target.

For a subsonic Air breathing cruise missile,the civilian GPS signal is more than enough,it wont need the military grade signal..Currently the signal accuracy is almost the same in military grade and civilian domain..The difference is in refresh rate..A sub sonic missile due to slower speed wont need fast updates of position,unlike the super/hyper sonic which will get lost if position is not updated every microsecond or so....In that aspect subsonic missiles have an upper hand...Plus all subsonic missiles go into supersonic mode once they are in close proximity of the target....you dont need to go hyper sonic all the way..once your missile is near the target,it goes supersonic and hits the target with higher kinetic energy and more accuracy..

In addition to all that,GPS guidance is not the last word in guidance..Pakistani missiles rely heavily on Inertial guidance systems,which if well calibrated are as good as GPS,and even better as Inertial guidance cannot be jammed,unlike GPS.
 
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^^^ no sir. civil gps have a circular area error of 0.1 - 0.5km but mil grade gps has of 10 - 50 meter 4 countries exept usa
 
With Indian PAD and AAD, Akash n S300s in the picture...

Babur is pretty ineffective for the sites being protected by these Anti Missile Gadgets...
 
With Indian PAD and AAD, Akash n S300s in the picture...

Babur is pretty ineffective for the sites being protected by these Anti Missile Gadgets...

Well definitely the guys in Pakistan and the manufacturers of Babur would have given thought to this issue and after having given the thought, gone ahead with manufacturing the missile and inducting it.

Anyone knows the terrain hugging capability of the babur ?? Whats the RCS ?? Minimum Radar coverage of the Indian SAM systems ??

So if we are not sure about all these specifications of both systems, then how come we can state that Babur is ineffective while the SAMs would be winning.

Plus many other scenarios where these SAM systems may not work 100% to defend their targets, what would happen if they are taken out ??
 
^^^
+ A very low flying object is problem for such radars to detect or shoot.......Babur can fly low and keep that low level and can manage to avoid collision with natural obstacles like mountains.......
 
How do you compare a Horse with a Camel ?
Camel can walk in Desert ; a Horse cant.

But a Horse is fast, and if its supersonic, can be rarely shot.
Babur is slower than a Mirage 2K!!!

Brahmos+MKI+Supersonic Speed=Any Target within Pakistan without any Counter after Release.
Babur-PAD-Slowness=Intercepted and Destroyed.

Babur's Strength is its weakness..
why ?
if it were to hit 800KM Target, it will have to remain for a Longer duration of Time in Air, Giving EXtra Time to be Intercepted.
And considering that its subsonic, things go really easy for the interceptors.


The major issue is about the detection of the Criuze Missiles as India already has S-300 ( Deployed Around several major cities including Mumbai , and new Delhi ) , PAD and AAD ( Under Development ), Detection rather Interception is a greater concern.

But with 6 Falcons , The best of AWACS , in place detection too cannot be difficult for a subsonic Missile.
That actually right.....When someone is in desert he'll need a camel.....Others might need Horse to ride the mountains....

You post got execellent example of a country will procure what it needs. Its not that one got supersonic will surely win. What if someones need is not supersonic......We need a camel and we are happy with it. India needed a horse and India is happy with it....
 
My input will better Pakistan not to develop any super,hyper dupers:D
and not to get involved in any arms race with INDIA,India with strong economy will try to upstage many fold, and things will go out of hand,
Do things which you can afford
so any arms race with India will hurt Pakistan more during these trying times, Pakistan should be more concerned about some rebellion from local populace than threat from BRAmos, INDIA is not that aggressive country as made out here,and has nothing to gain from attacking/defeating & cost of war will surely make the economy years behind.
 
^^^ no sir. civil gps have a circular area error of 0.1 - 0.5km but mil grade gps has of 10 - 50 meter 4 countries exept usa

Incorrect;
GIS imagery is available for civilian use with a lot more accuracy;
I have worked on two projects with imagery of 60cm resolution; and 40 cm was available.

What matters more than just raw resolution are following

1. The computation power on the missile in terms of processor / fabricating technology

2. The age of the imagery

3. How well the imagery has been stitched and how well has it been referenced on ground.

Pay attention I have not mentioned GPS "Signal" at all, It does not matter.
 
Subsonic, terrain-hugging cruise missiles are enormously difficult targets to intercept, and they are usually used in swarms, greatly compounding the challenge. They are also easy to engineer with a very low RCS.

Speed is less of a defense these days than ever before. High mach requires altitudes above 40,000 to 50,000 feet in general; the high mach number generates a huge doppler return, and it is well within the envelope of modern SAMS. They are also generally much more expensive. If I had a choice as a commander, I'd rather have a large number of subsonic, low-altitude missiles.
 
Subsonic, terrain-hugging cruise missiles are enormously difficult targets to intercept, and they are usually used in swarms, greatly compounding the challenge. They are also easy to engineer with a very low RCS.

Speed is less of a defense these days than ever before. High mach requires altitudes above 40,000 to 50,000 feet in general; the high mach number generates a huge doppler return, and it is well within the envelope of modern SAMS. They are also generally much more expensive. If I had a choice as a commander, I'd rather have a large number of subsonic, low-altitude missiles.
Absolutely - This is one of the reason Pakistan Army asked NESCOM to develop Cruise Missile because we already have hypersonic ballistic missiles which can target whole India but cruise missile is much better with pinpoint accuracy.Babur has been designed to fly low and using terrain to its advantage.We also have RAAD ALCM for ground strike but that is less stealthy compared to Babur.
 
dont forget that babur is sub sonic missile of same class of tomahawk with a range of 700 km and every one know that brahmos is supersonic which is going to become hypersonic is far too superior to the tomhack cruse missile


What u will do hypersonic if it couldn't hit targets with 100% accuracy... there are no proofs of its accuracy........on the other hand Babur has pin point...(PIN POINT) accuracy. even after 700 KMs where as Brahmos is just 350 or less range missile.
 
BrahMos may be good for Large open oceanic areas where it can fly low over sea and hit a large target such as a ship with high kinetic energy..But for use on land,i doubt it's capabilities..It cant fly low enough to be under enemy radars as at those speeds,even a bird strike will be enough to knock it out of the sky,and i cant imagine a hypersonic missile clipping tree tops..Its just not possible.
Plus turning and homing a hyper sonic missile accurately to the target is difficult compared to a subsom=nic one..Which can manoeuvrings much easily..and can go super/hypersonic at the last stages...just before hitting the target...

Am i repeating myself?
 
The Question is not whether Sub Sonic is good or Hyper sonic.....

The Real question is if Pakistan tomorrow somehow make a super sonic or hypersonic missile will indian view about super sonic will stay the same....???

IDTS...

There is no problem with sub sonic......The Problem is Pakistan have it so its bad.....

End of discussion.
 
^^^ no sir. civil gps have a circular area error of 0.1 - 0.5km but mil grade gps has of 10 - 50 meter 4 countries exept usa

Hi,

The GPS in my 2004 Acura 3.5 RL was with 5--10 feet of accuracy all the time.

It is understood that the civilian GPS is more accurate than the millitary----why---because the civilian gps is always newer and uptodate----the millitary gps has to go through the reliability and integration process---why I say that---One of my friends girlfriend worked on the f 16 electronis---she was riding with him in his Infiniti Q 45 when she made the comment about the gps on the cars being ahead of those on the planes.

Some millitary personale can comment on it and I can stand corrected.
 
Hello Peshwa,

I am still not able to get how are you finding my first post as emotional. May be you want to feel it that way but in my revisited opinion it is still a rational one. Lets face the reality on ground. Pakistan has fire-power but not enough to hold India back with it - longer. This is not something that only Military Generals would know and understand. These are facts on ground no matter how much spirit we show, we understand our chances of hurting India are thinner than being hurt by it. India is 1400 Million Heads and we are 170. Indian has nearly 10 times bigger economy than ours and even on defense budget, India spends 7-8 times more than we do. Logically speaking, Pakistan cannot build a defensive wall that India could not cross. So defensive approach does not suite us.

Graphican,

I beg to differ. Defensive approach is actually the only option available to Pakistan currently....
Pakistan has invested in a lot of offensive weapons, however it currenlty lags in its air defence (The introduction of Spada-2000 helps but does not provide complete immunity).....A task which is entrusted to the airforce. Unless your airforce is impeccable and is able to respond with lightning speed at the sign of an intrusion or attack, your threat levels remain high. (You have to take the possibility of human error seriously....thats how the Israelis won the 6 day war)....
On the other hand, India is much ahead as far as Air defence is concerned.....With a healthy combination of Offence and defence, coupled with numerical superiority, it will become very hard for Pakistan to fight a war over Indian skies.

So the way I see it, Pakistan has to rely on fighting the war on their turf and skies in order to work the odds in their favor.....Which in turn is considered a purely defensive stance.....only problem being that Pakistan is yet to invest heavily in defensive weapons....



This is again how you would like the things to be seen. Let me ask you a simple question. Do we differ that India and Pakistan are Enemies? If your answer is no than bare with me on reality. Whenever we had a chance to hurt India secretly, we did and you are aware of that.. aren't you? Now this is India's opportunity to hurt Pakistan through whatever means it has. Baluchistan and FATA are the best grounds for that. Until and unless you are ready to term Indian Intelligence Agencies as Clan of Fools, you got to accept that India is enjoying its turn of troubling Pakistan

Graphican, on paper, it sounds just right.....all conspiracy theories have a way of making sense...(or one tries to find sense in them).....that is the reason why they have an audience....

However, blaming the actions of TTP on Indian Intelligence agencies is nothing more than ignoring the fundamental flaw in the Pakistani policy since the Zia era. ....
The Islamization of Pakistan I feel is the sole cause of the extremism you face.....
Take 2 situations:
Aghan Taliban: Born out of US and Pakistani efforts to use the Islamic identity of Afhgans to mould the minds of Afghans into justifying the war against the Soviets....through Madrasas and training camps in Pakistans NWFP, the Cold war was able to mould the minds of millions of Afghans into extremism
TTP: an element of the same where the Madrasas in FATA and NWFP were used to train Mujahideen to fight the Soviet occupation....

I have always maintained that Afghan Taliban and TTP are one and the same and operate closely...

30 years later, with the lack of repatriating the Mujahideen into regular society with minimal control on their activities has resulted in the current situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.....

India has very little to do in worsening this situation.....The war is more a civil war....one of ideologies....

The TTP are fighting to make Pakistan an Islamic/Sharia state, while the GOP and army are trying to protect Pakistans secular and Liberal identity......
The current situation in Pakistan is NOT an India vs. Pakistan battle as many make it out to be....
I feel, that it is this false projection of cause that has slowed the pace and verocity of the fight against TTP by concentrating on the external enemy (India) when its TTP (Internal ) which is the largest threat to Pakistan's identity!


Regarding the second part of it, Indeed, this is the only reason which keeps India bare cool mind. I understand Indian people eat the same wheat which Pakistani do and their head boils on incidents like 26/11 as much ours do with these suicide attacks in Pakistan. But in war, India has more to loose than Pakistan. We would be "dead" but India would be "limp" which is not a pleasant option for it.. and to add a little more to it, there are few Nations on Indian border that would like to see a limp chap so it could be easier for them to finish the job that Pakistan could not.. and this is exactly what has been predicted. Since this hurts my fellows from India so I am keeping it as short as possible.

For most part I agree with you....minus the Ghazwa-ul-hind part....

However....here's what was referring to in my second point....
This is the age of economic war....meaning, that war in the traditional sense of armies battling it out is not the only way to cripple and defeat an enemy....
Take the cold war.....It is the prime example of an economic war where trying to match USA pound to pound in weapons, space etc lead the USSR to crumble under its own weight....

India need not fight a conventional war with Pakistan.....economic crippling of the country itself can limit Pakistans "teeth"
India enjoys the "love" and influence in the world at the moment since it serves the economic incentive of the world.....Hence compared to Pakistan, India is not only able to use diplomacy to deny Pakistan many opportunites, but is also able to turn international opinion regarding them....This actually hurts Pakistan more than a conventional war....
The more Pakistan feels the threat to match India in ability (wrt to armed forces), the more resources it allocates away from other key areas (esp. with a fledging economy)....creating unrest, unemployment etc. The unhapiness of the masses itself can snowball into a huge problem....

Hence I feel India has been smart in holding itself back .....why fight an enemy that has an internal war....and one that can be defeated economically with minimal loss of human liife?
 
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