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How catastrophic will an Indo-Pak nuclear armageddon be?

@Indo-guy thanks for posting that. i will study the examples given; scenarios discussed and will reply you


You are welcome dear ....


How One Nuclear Skirmish Could Wreck the Planet
  • By Dave Mosher
nuclear-bomb-explosion-ndep.jpg

Image: A nuclear bomb test. Nevada Division of Environmental Protection
Updated: Feb. 25, 2011; 11:40 p.m. EST
WASHINGTON — Even a small nuclear exchange could ignite mega-firestorms and wreck the planet’s atmosphere.
New climatological simulations show 100 Hiroshima-sized nuclear bombs — relatively small warheads, compared to the arsenals military superpowers stow today — detonated by neighboring countries would destroy more than a quarter of the Earth’s ozone layer in about two years.
Regions closer to the poles would see even more precipitous drops in the protective gas, which absorbs harmful ultraviolet radiation from the sun. New York and Sydney, for example, would see declines rivaling the perpetual hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica. And it may take more than six years for the ozone layer to reach half of its former levels.
Researchers described the results during a panel Feb. 18 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, calling it “a real bummer” that such a localized nuclear war could bring the modern world to its knees.
“This is tremendously dangerous,” said environmental scientist Alan Robock of Rutgers University, one of the climate scientists presenting at the meeting. “The climate change would be unprecedented in human history, and you can imagine the world … would just shut down.”
To defuse the complexity involved in a nuclear climate catastrophe, Wired.com sat down with Michael Mills, an atmospheric chemist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, who led some of the latest simulation efforts.
‘It’s pretty clear this would lead to a global nuclear famine.’
Wired.com: In your simulation, a war between India and Pakistan breaks out. Each country launches 50 nukes at their opponent’s cities. What happens after the first bomb goes off?
Michael Mills: The initial explosions ignite fires in the cities, and those fires would build up for hours. What you eventually get is a firestorm, something on the level we saw in World War II in cities like Dresden, in Tokyo, Hiroshima and so on.
Today we have larger cities than we did then — mega cities. And using 100 weapons on these different mega cities, like those in India and Pakistan, would cause these firestorms to build on themselves. They would create their own weather and start sucking air through bottom. People and objects would be sucked into buildings from the winds, basically burning everything in the city. It’ll burn concrete, the temperatures get so hot. It converts mega cities into black carbon smoke.
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Atmospheric scientist Michael Mills of NCAR. Dave Mosher/Wired.com
Wired.com: I see — the firestorms push up the air, and ash, into the atmosphere?
Mills: Yeah. You sometimes see these firestorms in large forest fires in Canada, in Siberia. In those cases, you see a lot of this black carbon getting into the stratosphere, but not on the level we’re talking about in a nuclear exchange.
The primary cause of ozone loss is the heating of the stratosphere by that smoke. Temperatures initially increase by more than 100 degrees Celsius, and remain more than 30 degrees higher than normal for more than 3 years. The higher temperatures increase the rates of two reaction cycles that deplete ozone.
Wired.com: And the ozone layer is in the stratosphere, correct?
Mills: OK, so we live in the troposphere, which is about 8 kilometers [5 miles] thick at the poles, and 16 km [10 miles] at the equator.
At the top of the troposphere, you start to encounter the stratosphere. It’s defined by the presence of the ozone layer, with the densest ozone at the lowest part, then it tails off at the stratopause, where the stratosphere ends about 50 km [30 miles] up.
We have a lot of weather in the troposphere. That’s because energy is being absorbed at the Earth’s surface, so it’s warmest at the surface. As you go up in the atmosphere it gets colder. Well, that all turns around as you get to the ozone layer. It starts getting hotter because ozone is absorbing ultraviolet radiation, until you run out of ozone and it starts getting colder again. Then you’re at the mesosphere.
How Nukes Gobble Up Ozone
When we talk about ozone, we’re talking about the odd oxygen family, which includes both ozone (O3) and atomic oxygen (O). Those two gases can interchange rapidly within hours.
Ozone is produced naturally by the breakdown of molecules of oxygen, O2, which makes up 20 percent of the atmosphere. O2 breaks down from ultraviolet solar radiation and splits it into two molecules of O. Then the O, very quickly, runs into another O2 and forms O3. And the way O3 forms O again is by absorbing more UV light, so it’s actually more protective than O2.
Ozone is always being created and destroyed by many reactions. Some of those are catalytic cycles that destroy ozone, and in those you have something like NO2 plus O to produce NO plus O2. In that case, you’ve gotten rid of a member of the odd oxygen family and converted it to O2. Well, then you’ve got an NO which can react with ozone and produce the NO2 back again and another O2. So the NO and NO2 can go back and forth and in the process one molecule can deplete thousands of molecules of ozone.
It’s a similar process to chlorofluorocarbons, Those are the larger molecules that we’ve manufactured that don’t exist naturally. They break down into chlorine in the stratosphere, which has a powerful ozone-depleting ability. —Michael Mills
Wired.com: Where do the nukes come in? I mean, in eroding the ozone layer?
Mills: It’s not the explosions that do it, but the firestorms. Those push up gases that lead to oxides of nitrogen, which act like chlorofluorocarbons. But let’s back up a little.
There are two important elements that destroy ozone, or O3, which is made of three atoms of oxygen. One element involves oxides of nitrogen, including nitrogen dioxide, or NO2, which can be made from nitrous oxide, or N2O — laughing gas.
The other element is a self-destructive process that happens when ozone reacts with atomic oxygen, called O. When they react together, they form O2, which is the most common form of oxygen on the planet. This self-reaction is natural, but takes off the fastest in the first year after the nuclear war.
In years two, three and four, the NO2 builds up. It peaks in year two because the N2O, the stuff that’s abundant in the troposphere, rose so rapidly with the smoke that it’s pushed up into the stratosphere. There, it breaks down into the oxides like NO2, which deplete ozone.
Wired.com: So firestorms suck up the N2O, push it up into the stratosphere, and degrade the ozone layer. But where does this stuff come from?
Mills: N2O is among a wide class of what we call tracers that are emitted at the ground. It’s produced by bacterias in soil, and it’s been increasing due to human activities like nitrogen fertilizers used in farming. N2O is actually now the most significant human impact on the ozone, now that we’ve mostly taken care of CFCs.
Wired.com: You did similar computer simulations in the past few years and saw this ozone-depleting effect. What do the new simulations tell us?
Mills: Before, we couldn’t look at the ozone depletion’s effects on surface temperatures; we lacked a full ocean model that would respond realistically. The latest runs are ones I’ve done in the Community Earth System Model. It has an atmospheric model, a full-ocean model, full-land and sea-ice models, and even a glacier model.
We see significantly greater cooling than other studies, perhaps because of ozone loss . Instead of a globally averaged 1.3-degree–Celsius drop, which Robock’s atmospheric model produced, it’s more like 2 degrees. But we both see a 7 percent decrease in global average precipitation in both models. And in our model we see a much greater global average loss of ozone for many years, with even larger losses everywhere outside of the tropics.
I also gave this to my colleague Julia Lee-Taylor at NCAR. She calculated the UV indexes across the planet, and a lot of major cities and farming areas would be exposed to a UV index similar to the Himalayas, or the hole over the Antarctic. We’re starting to look at the response of sea ice and land ice in the model, and it seems to be heavily increasing in just a few years after the hypothetical war.
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Massive global ozone loss predicted following regional nuclear conflict. Michael Mills/NCAR/NSF
Wired.com: What would all of this do to the planet, to civilization?
Mills: UV has big impacts on whole ecosystems. Plant height reduction, decreased shoot mass, reduction in foliage area. It can affect genetic stability of plants, increase susceptibility to attacks by insects and pathogens, and so on. It changes the whole competitive balance of plants and nutrients, and it can affect processes from which plants get their nitrogen.
Then there’s marine life, which depends heavily on phytoplankton. Phytoplankton are essential; they live in top layer of the ocean and they’re the plants of the ocean. They can go a little lower in the ocean if there’s UV, but then they can’t get as much sunlight and produce as much energy. As soon as you cut off plants in the ocean, the animals would die pretty quickly. You also get damage to larval development and reproduction in fish, shrimp, crabs and other animals. Amphibians are also very susceptible to UV.
A 16 percent ozone depletion could result in a 5 percent loss in phytoplankton, which could result in a 7 percent loss in fisheries and aquaculture. And in our model we see a much greater global average loss of ozone for many years; the global average hides a lot.
Wired.com: This doesn’t sound very good at all.
Mills: No, as we said it’s a real bummer. It’s pretty clear this would lead to a global nuclear famine.
You have the inability to grow crops due to severe, colder temperatures and also the severe increases in UV light. You have the loss of plants and proteins in the oceans, and that leads to widespread food shortages and famine (PDF).
atmosphere-layers-noaa.jpg

The first three layers of the atmosphere. NOAA

Wired.com: There have been thousands of nuclear tests. Why hasn’t this already happened?
Mills: We’re not talking about direct impacts of the explosions themselves, but the firestorms that result when you detonate these in cities. Most tests were in deserts or atolls or space or underground.
Wired.com: When you talk nuclear reductions, you’re wading into political territory. As a scientist, how do you handle that?
Mills: The response to this from the policy community has been rather underwhelming. We know, from what both Gorbachev and Reagan have said in anecdotes, that these kinds of studies had a big impact on thinking at the time. People started realizing nuclear war was not something you can win. You’d just destroy the whole planet.
That led to some of the dramatic reductions we saw in the original START treaty, but we still have the ability to basically destroy the planet with one-tenth of 1 percent of the world’s current arsenals.
By the way, there’s nobody really funding these kinds of studies. All of us here are doing these on our own time. You can’t get grants to do this kind of research. It’s puzzling to me.
Wired.com: What would you like to see happen?
Mills: We’d all like to see much more dramatic reductions in the number of nuclear weapons we’re seeing proposed in the new START treaty, and the SORT treaty under the Bush administration. These just seem like refinements, in which the number of weapons is reduced, but each airplane counts as one weapon that can carry multiple bombs. So we might not be seeing any reductions.
Wired.com: Should nations have any nukes?
Mills: How many times do you need to explode a nuclear weapon in your enemy’s capital to deter them? I think just once. But given the consequences, I don’t think it’s reasonable to have any.
nuclear-war-ultraviolet-index.jpg

Ultraviolet radiation indexes before and after a simulated regional nuclear war, with compensation for black carbon (BC) soaking up some of the radiation. A level of 11 or higher is considered an extreme risk of harm from unprotected sun exposure. Julia Lee-Taylor/NCAR/NSF
 
I wonder how large China's arsenal of Chemical and Biological weapon is.
 
a

all right then, lets fight full scale conventional war with pakistan.

Hold your itching man. Step over the line and there will be tactical nukes smoking your donkeys and then You guys will react with full wrath of your nuclear arm to make sure we don't see another sun. It will be responded by us in the same manner. Hence Chinese people will not eat for a whole decade.
 
Hold your itching man. Step over the line and there will be tactical nukes smoking your donkeys and then You guys will react with full wrath of your nuclear arm to make sure we don't see another sun. It will be responded by us in the same manner. Hence Chinese people will not eat for a whole decade.

And Pakistan would use,tactical nukes to get rataliated by strategic nukes...:lol
 
when theres a nuclear war going out u think EU matters?? every country in the union fend for itselves.it stores its own grain.

It was merely an illustration of the scale of production in the context of an counterargument to your position that China and India are world's top two grain producers, which in the case of India was another delusion, just like this whole thread is.

And we were not debating grain storage, but the ability of states and entities to grow their own food post India-Pakistan nuclear exchange.

Seems you have a bit of a comprehension disability issue.


nobody know the political implications in such cases and ur arguing like a child??

Yea, SMS English and i'm the child. I can't tell political implications, but i'm almost certain Asians would be hungrier then anyone else.


if u really believe that world will remain unaffected if 2 billion people are killed then sweet dreams.

Where did i say that? Link it please.
Putting proposterous claims up, attributing them to me, debunk it easily, win? And i'm the child?
 
@Audio, @Alpha1

http://www.atmos-chem-phys.org/7/2003/2007/acp-7-2003-2007.pdf





http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro202/TTAPS2_SciAm84.pdf






http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/RobockToonSAD.pdf




Deadly global climate change from nuclear war
Nuclear war would devastate the environment, climate, ecosystems and inhabitants of Earth.
A "regional" nuclear war, fought between emerging nuclear weapon states with relatively primitive nuclear weapons, would create a Nuclear Haze which would quickly lead to deadly global climate change. A large nuclear war, fought with thousands of modern thermonuclear weapons, would create either Nuclear Twilight or Nuclear Darkness. Extreme Ice Age weather conditions would result, and would trigger a mass extinction event that would extinguish most complex forms of life on Earth, including human life.
The darkness and global cooling predicted to result from nuclear war (along with massive radioactive fallout, pyrotoxins, and ozone depletion) was first described in 1983 as "nuclear winter". These initial studies estimated the smoke from nuclear firestorms would stay in the stratosphere for about a year. However in 2006, researchers using modern computer models found the smoke would form a global stratospheric smoke layer that would last for ten years.
The longevity of such a smoke layer would allow much smaller quantities of smoke than first predicted in the 1980’s to have a great impact upon both global climate and atmospheric ozone which blocks ultraviolet (UV) light. Thus scientists predict that even a "regional" nuclear conflict could produce enough smoke to significantly cool average global surface temperatures, reduce precipitation, and vastly increase the amount of dangerous UV light reaching the surface of Earth.
A nuclear war fought between India and Pakistan would produce enough smoke to make the blue skies of Earth appear grey. Although the amount of sunlight blocked by this Nuclear Haze would not produce the profound darkening of the Earth predicted in a nuclear winter (after a nuclear war fought with thousands of strategic nuclear weapons), the deadly climate change created by a regional conflict would likely have devastating global effects upon all human populations, through its shortening of growing seasons and corresponding negative effects upon global agriculture.
In 2006, U.S. researchers used a NASA computer model (Model 1E, also used for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) to evaluate the effects of a regional nuclear war fought in the sub-tropics. 50 Hiroshima-size nuclear weapons (15 kilotons per weapon) were detonated in the largest cities of each combatant nation (100 total detonations).
The studies predicted the nuclear explosions would kill 20 million people in the war zone, the equivalent to half of all the people who died during World War II. The conflict would also significantly disrupt global climate. Up to 5 million tons of smoke from burning cities would quickly rise above cloud level into the stratosphere, and within 2 weeks would form a global stratospheric smoke layer which would remain in place for about 10 years.
The computer models estimated this smoke layer would block 7–10% of warming sunlight from reaching the surface of the Earth. Average surface temperatures beneath the smoke would become colder than any experienced during the last 1000 years. There would be a corresponding shortening of growing seasons by up to 30 days and significant reductions in average rainfall in many areas, with a 40% decrease of precipitation in the Asian monsoon region.
Such rapid and drastic climate change would have major impacts on global grain reserves, which already are at 50 year lows. Grain exports would likely cease for several years from large exporting nations like Canada. The 700 million people now living on the edge of starvation, along with those populations heavily dependent upon grain imports, would face mass starvation as grain reserves disappeared, prices skyrocketed and hoarding occurred. Global nuclear famine is the predicted result of this scenario. As many as one billion people could die during the years subsequent to the deadly climate change created by this level of nuclear conflict.
A stratospheric smoke layer would also cause massive destruction of the protective ozone layer. Studies in 2008 predicted smoke from a regional nuclear conflict (as described above) would create ozone losses of 25-45% above mid latitudes, and 50-70% above northern high latitudes persisting for 5 years, with substantial losses continuing for 5 additional years. Severe ozone depletion would allow intense levels of harmful ultraviolet light (UV-B) to reach the surface of the Earth – even with the stratospheric smoke layer in place.
Global stratospheric ozone levels would fall to near those now seen only over Antarctica during the formation of the "ozone hole". The UV index in the mid-latitudes would increase by 42–108%, which would cause fair skinned people to suffer sunburn in as little as 7 minutes. In the high northerly latitudes, the UV index would increase by 130–290%, shortening the time required for fair skinned people to sunburn from 32–43 minutes to 8–19 minutes.
Massive increases of UV-B light would clearly have negative impacts upon marine and terrestrial ecosystems, yet no research has been done to investigate the consequences of such a scenario. Likewise, no studies using modern climate models have yet been done to assess ozone depletion following larger nuclear conflicts fought with high-yield strategic nuclear weapons.
The United States and Russia have more than 7000 operational high-yield nuclear weapons which are ready for immediate use. These weapons have a combined explosive power 500 to 1000 times greater than the explosive power contained within 100 Hiroshima-size weapons. Virtually all their land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles are operating under the policy of Launch-On-Warning.
In 2008, scientists predicted the detonation of 4400 strategic nuclear weapons in large cities could cause 770 million prompt fatalities and produce up to 180 million tons of thick, black smoke. Ten days after detonation, the smoke would form a dense global stratospheric smoke layer which would block about 70% of warming sunlight from reaching the surface of the Northern Hemisphere and 35% of sunlight from reaching the Southern Hemisphere.
The resulting nuclear darkness would cause rapid cooling of more than 20º C (36º F) over large areas of North America and of more than 30º C (54º F) over much of Eurasia. Daily minimum temperatures would fall below freezing in the largest agricultural areas of the Northern Hemisphere for a period of between one to three years. Average global surface temperatures would become colder than those experienced 18,000 years ago at the height of the last Ice Age.
The cooling of the Earth’s surface would weaken the global hydrological cycle and the Northern Hemisphere summer monsoon circulations would collapse because the temperature differences that drive them would not develop. As a result, average global precipitation is predicted to decrease by 45%.
The cumulative effects of deadly climate change and ozone destruction would eliminate growing seasons for more than a decade. Catastrophic climatic effects lasting for many years would occur in regions far removed from the target areas or the countries involved in the conflict. Under such conditions, it is likely that most humans and large animal populations would die of starvation.
Nuclear arsenals must be eliminated, because if they are left intact, they will eventually be used. Nuclear weapons must be outlawed, dismantled and abolished. A draft treaty, or Model Nuclear Weapons Convention, has been prepared by civil society organizations and submitted to the United Nations. Nuclear weapon states are obligated (under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty) to negotiate in good faith to achieve such a treaty to eliminate their nuclear arsenals.
For other online versions of this article,
see http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/pdfs/2010_02_18_starr_climate_change.pdf (the website of the Nuclear Peace Age Foundation)
the Strategic Arms Reduction website of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology Center for Arms Control, Energy and Environmental Studies at http://www.armscontrol.ru/pubs/en/deadly-climate-change-from-nuclear-war.pdf


i like your effort, i really do, but:

fought with thousands of modern thermonuclear weapons

and in any case, nowhere it mentions the end of civilization under the criteria we discussed, ie max. 200 explosions (roughly the size of Pak/Ind nuclear arsenals with a generous boost), which is what i was debating in the first place.
 
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It was merely an illustration of the scale of production in the context of an counterargument to your position that China and India are world's top two grain producers, which in the case of India was another delusion, just like this whole thread is.

And we were not debating grain storage, but the ability of states and entities to grow their own food post India-Pakistan nuclear exchange.

Seems you have a bit of a comprehension disability issue.




Yea, SMS English and i'm the child. I can't tell political implications, but i'm almost certain Asians would be hungrier then anyone else.




Where did i say that? Link it please.
Putting proposterous claims up, attributing them to me, debunk it easily, win? And i'm the child?
i never said food grain producers.i said food producers.
india stands first and second in the production of many food products including food grains,fruits and vegetables,milk and a certain meat.
Agriculture in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of largest producing countries of agricultural commodities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and china too amounts to considerable amount of food share in the world.if these sources get exhausted then there will be additional strain in the world as the net arable area decreases.
so mature of u to criticize the hunger of people thank you.
where did the article say this "If India falls, Earth falls. In a nutshell....." link it please.
its rather naive to assume that a nuclear war of such a degree would not have any effect on climate.several studies are in progress in this aspect
The effect of Nuclear War on Climate Change | Weather Underground
Climatic Consequences of Nuclear Conflict
Small Nuclear War Could Reverse Global Warming for Years?
ever thought what would happen if the monsoons stop arriving on time??or glaciers melting ??directions of change of ocean currents??this is not just a local phenomenon. i suggest u to study about el-nino and la-nina an ocean current which affects from atlantic,pacific and indian ocean.monsoons get delayed for us due to the abnormality of the pattern which is taking place some where in the coast of south america.as i said climate do not find geographic boundaries.so a nuclear war in asia does affect the world and viceversa.nobody is claiming here that india is the centre of the universe.
 
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As @Audio said the figures thrown out are tooooooo exaggerated especially if one takes into account our tiny nukes - though there well long term effects surely.
 
i never said food grain producers.i said food producers.
india stands first and second in the production of many food products including food grains,fruits and vegetables,milk and a certain meat.
Agriculture in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of largest producing countries of agricultural commodities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and china too amounts to considerable amount of food share in the world.if these sources get exhausted then there will be additional strain in the world as the net arable area decreases.so mature of u to criticize the hunger of people thank you.

It should not be too surprising that countries like China and India feature prominently on the lists of top agricultural producers; these countries have large populations and internal food security (that is, producing enough to feed a nation's population from internal resources) is a major priority. A great deal of this production is used internally, though, and the list of the top exporting countries looks much different.

Top Agricultural Producing Countries

So, we see from the table at link India is nowhere in the top exporters category, neither is China. And you're arguing people elsewhere would go hungry if the exports from those two stop. Why am i not hungry now?



where did the article say this "If India falls, Earth falls. In a nutshell....." link it please.

The person to whom i replied this asked what is the point of this thread, not about the article. Comprehension again. Lacking.
 
Top Agricultural Producing Countries

So, we see from the table at link India is nowhere in the top exporters category, neither is China. And you're arguing people elsewhere would go hungry if the exports from those two stop. Why am i not hungry now?





The person to whom i replied this asked what is the point of this thread, not about the article. Comprehension again. Lacking.
if u read my post a bit carefully, i said the net "arable land" get decreases.i never said they are exporters i said they are producers..so even for now if the food is adequate how would u support the humanity after 3 or 4 decades??so u comprehend the article as ""If India falls, Earth falls. In a nutshell....." right comprehension..lacking.
i've stated many points out of which food is only a factor.theres are worse problems like climate change which i explained in #53
 
India and Pakistan nike eachother not only are all of us ****** but the whole world suffers as well....all the more reason to avoid a nuclear war....
 
i don't wanna think it man we are humans and just 65 years before we were one country and lived with eachother thousands of years . please wake up and come out of this bloody sea of hate . be human live and let other live .
 
if u read my post a bit carefully, i said the net "arable land" get decreases.i never said they are exporters i said they are producers..so even for now if the food is adequate how would u support the humanity after 3 or 4 decades??so u comprehend the article as ""If India falls, Earth falls. In a nutshell....." right comprehension..lacking.
i've stated many points out of which food is only a factor.theres are worse problems like climate change which i explained in #53

you are right in what you say a nuclear war would have consequences that humanity may never completely recover from maybe the same can be said about the earthly ecosystem
 
you are right in what you say a nuclear war would have consequences that humanity may never completely recover from maybe the same can be said about the earthly ecosystem
yes i've already pointed it out in #53
 

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