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HAL pushes for AESA Equipped LCA Tejas Mark I-A (LCA-1P) as interim improved version of Mark I

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With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A

42630422.jpg

HAL Tejas Mark I

HAL has aimed a serious blow at the Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), with a letter telling the Indian Air Force (IAF) that it does not have the manpower to work on developing an improved version of the current Tejas Mark I.

The Bengaluru-based public sector aviation monolith says its engineers are already stretched with existing projects, including the Tejas production line, design and prototype manufacture of a basic trainer aircraft, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40); and the testing and production of the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

HAL has suggested that, instead of waiting for the Tejas Mark II the IAF should buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A, an interim fighter that would be more capable then the Mark I, but less than the Mark II will be.

Business Standard has learned of a heated debate under way between the user of the Tejas, the IAF; its designer, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); and its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The IAF has already committed to buying 40 Tejas Mark I. In addition, the air force has indicated it will buy four-to-five squadrons (80-100 fighters) of the Tejas Mark II when it is ready.

HAL worries about the future of its production line after it delivers 40 Mark I fighters by end-2019. It plans to build four Tejas Mark I by March 2016; another eight by March 2017; and crank up production to 16 fighters annually by March 2018. After 2019, the production line would idle till the Tejas Mark II enters production.

Senior HAL and ADA officials agree the Tejas Mark II is unlikely to enter production till 2023-24. Developing the Mark II involves fitting in a more powerful engine --- the General Electric F-414INS6 replacing the current F-404IN --- and upgrading avionics and weaponry. With prototype development likely to take till 2019, another three to four years would go in flight-testing the Tejas Mark II and preparing production drawings.

HAL, therefore, wants the IAF to buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A to keep the production line occupied from 2020 to 2023-24.

The Mark 1-A would be faster and more agile than the current Mark I. Developing it would involve shaving off 800 kilogrammes from the current fighter, especially from systems like the landing gear, which are currently "over-engineered", or built heavy, for safety. HAL also proposes to remove 300 kg of dead weight distributed across the Mark I to balance it evenly.

HAL argues that the Mark I's GE F-404IN engine, which generates 84 kiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust, would meet the IAF's performance requirements, if one tonne is shaved off the Tejas Mark I's empty weight of 6,500 kg. In that case, the GE F-414INS6 engine's 98 kN of thrust would be needed only for the naval Tejas, which must take off from the short runway of an aircraft carrier deck.


The IAF and ADA are taken aback by HAL's reluctance to participate in developing the Mark II. Even though the Tejas project is managed by ADA --- a branch of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- HAL has developed important components. Besides many smaller systems, HAL designed the Tejas structure, its undercarriage and electrical supply system. It would have to upgrade these for the Mark II.

"We have completed the preliminary design of the Tejas Mark II, but now the detailed design will be done. HAL would have to refine and upgrade the systems it developed for the Tejas", points out a senior ADA official.

HAL's withdrawal stems from its deep-rooted concern over the Tejas assembly line, which was established at a cost of Rs 1,556 crore, with HAL paying half and the remaining shared between the IAF and navy. Keeping the line running is essential, so that skilled manpower does not have to be redistributed; and a steady flow of orders can be placed on sub-vendors.

HAL sees a four-year gap between the last Tejas Mark I and the first Tejas Mark II as seriously disruptive. Building 80 Tejas Mark I-A is a way of bridging that gap.

However, the IAF and ADA point to HAL's poor record of adhering to manufacturing schedules. They say HAL, which is more than a year late in building the Tejas Mark I, is unlikely to build and deliver 40 Tejas Mark I by 2019. So far, the Tejas line has built just one fighter.

"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

To overcome HAL's difficulties with building and assembling the Tejas Mark I, ADA proposes to adopt a new production model for the Mark II. The DRDO's aerospace chief, K Tamilmani, tells Business Standard that seven private sector companies will be chosen to manufacture the fighter's modules (systems and sub-systems). HAL will be responsible for integrating them and testing and delivering them to the IAF.

"If we have to accelerate production and build the Tejas Mark II to the requisite quality and quantity, HAL cannot be saddled with responsibility for everything. Instead, private companies will build modules, while HAL will be lead integrator," says Tamilmani.

Source:- With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A | Business Standard News
 
The tussle between hal and iaf has started again:mad:
Iaf should order 80 mk1p
 
The tussle between hal and iaf has started again:mad:
Iaf should order 80 mk1p

LCA-1P is the Mark I-A variant under consideration - The significant upgrade includes its EW package - The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package - will also add some 50 kilos of more weight.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.

LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.

The AESA Radar on board will be ELTA EL/M 2052 Solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) -

IAI1.PNG

IAI2.PNG

The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017.
 
IAF is not going to do that. even the Mk2 will not be favored by IAF if they don't get mmrca
 
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HAL is hell bent on securing more orders of MK1.
They need to focus on their fcuking management and hire more engineers ASAP.

As far as IAF is concerned, they know they are short on squadrons, give HAL another 40+ order. Everyone, HAL, DRDO,ADA, Suppliers even IAF pilots will be happy.
Its a good cheap plane.
 
If HAL is so confident on Lca Mk1-A then they should look for international customer for it...Their are many friendly countries who are looking for replacement for their MiG 21...
 
"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

Positive quote from the IAF. Hope this continues. Though not as great as the IN, they are still better than the IA.

Before blasting the HAL chaps, its not about just adding engineers to the line. The line needs to be kept open. You can keep adding engineers, but, with no order you cannot deliver. I think, HAL is being realistic here. Mark II is not going to fly before 2019 and production will not start till 2022. What they need to do is work out an additional commitment from the IAF to keep the line chugging at a minimum rate till the Mark 2 comes in.

Also, somebody tell Shukla that ADA is not part of DRDO. ADE is part of DRDO.

@MilSpec
 
i hope MMRCA fails.......not even 36 rafales should be brought...instead we should go for off shelf option and should buy Su-34 if bomber is what we need(i know about its size, and uses as a bomber).......and should divert $15 billion dollars for T50.....and then should spend rest of the money on development of LCA mk2 and AMCA...that way we can have more squadrons by 2025......LCA mk1 A should be ordered as an interceptor and should be made a backup force........to mirages and mig's.......80 is too much for Mk1, it isnt even ready for basic flying duties......:mad:
 
With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A

42630422.jpg

HAL Tejas Mark I

HAL has aimed a serious blow at the Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), with a letter telling the Indian Air Force (IAF) that it does not have the manpower to work on developing an improved version of the current Tejas Mark I.

The Bengaluru-based public sector aviation monolith says its engineers are already stretched with existing projects, including the Tejas production line, design and prototype manufacture of a basic trainer aircraft, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40); and the testing and production of the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

HAL has suggested that, instead of waiting for the Tejas Mark II the IAF should buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A, an interim fighter that would be more capable then the Mark I, but less than the Mark II will be.

Business Standard has learned of a heated debate under way between the user of the Tejas, the IAF; its designer, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); and its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The IAF has already committed to buying 40 Tejas Mark I. In addition, the air force has indicated it will buy four-to-five squadrons (80-100 fighters) of the Tejas Mark II when it is ready.

HAL worries about the future of its production line after it delivers 40 Mark I fighters by end-2019. It plans to build four Tejas Mark I by March 2016; another eight by March 2017; and crank up production to 16 fighters annually by March 2018. After 2019, the production line would idle till the Tejas Mark II enters production.

Senior HAL and ADA officials agree the Tejas Mark II is unlikely to enter production till 2023-24. Developing the Mark II involves fitting in a more powerful engine --- the General Electric F-414INS6 replacing the current F-404IN --- and upgrading avionics and weaponry. With prototype development likely to take till 2019, another three to four years would go in flight-testing the Tejas Mark II and preparing production drawings.

HAL, therefore, wants the IAF to buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A to keep the production line occupied from 2020 to 2023-24.

The Mark 1-A would be faster and more agile than the current Mark I. Developing it would involve shaving off 800 kilogrammes from the current fighter, especially from systems like the landing gear, which are currently "over-engineered", or built heavy, for safety. HAL also proposes to remove 300 kg of dead weight distributed across the Mark I to balance it evenly.

HAL argues that the Mark I's GE F-404IN engine, which generates 84 kiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust, would meet the IAF's performance requirements, if one tonne is shaved off the Tejas Mark I's empty weight of 6,500 kg. In that case, the GE F-414INS6 engine's 98 kN of thrust would be needed only for the naval Tejas, which must take off from the short runway of an aircraft carrier deck.


The IAF and ADA are taken aback by HAL's reluctance to participate in developing the Mark II. Even though the Tejas project is managed by ADA --- a branch of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- HAL has developed important components. Besides many smaller systems, HAL designed the Tejas structure, its undercarriage and electrical supply system. It would have to upgrade these for the Mark II.

"We have completed the preliminary design of the Tejas Mark II, but now the detailed design will be done. HAL would have to refine and upgrade the systems it developed for the Tejas", points out a senior ADA official.

HAL's withdrawal stems from its deep-rooted concern over the Tejas assembly line, which was established at a cost of Rs 1,556 crore, with HAL paying half and the remaining shared between the IAF and navy. Keeping the line running is essential, so that skilled manpower does not have to be redistributed; and a steady flow of orders can be placed on sub-vendors.

HAL sees a four-year gap between the last Tejas Mark I and the first Tejas Mark II as seriously disruptive. Building 80 Tejas Mark I-A is a way of bridging that gap.

However, the IAF and ADA point to HAL's poor record of adhering to manufacturing schedules. They say HAL, which is more than a year late in building the Tejas Mark I, is unlikely to build and deliver 40 Tejas Mark I by 2019. So far, the Tejas line has built just one fighter.

"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

To overcome HAL's difficulties with building and assembling the Tejas Mark I, ADA proposes to adopt a new production model for the Mark II. The DRDO's aerospace chief, K Tamilmani, tells Business Standard that seven private sector companies will be chosen to manufacture the fighter's modules (systems and sub-systems). HAL will be responsible for integrating them and testing and delivering them to the IAF.

"If we have to accelerate production and build the Tejas Mark II to the requisite quality and quantity, HAL cannot be saddled with responsibility for everything. Instead, private companies will build modules, while HAL will be lead integrator," says Tamilmani.

Source:- With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A | Business Standard News
GOI Should Better Setup New Production Lines with Public & Private Partnership To break deadlock And get over with It

80 is too much for Mk1, it isnt even ready for basic flying duties....
Dude LCA Mk1-A Variant is Upgraded version of LCA.Still Better than Mig-21 which IAF bound to operate beyond 2025

Positive quote from the IAF. Hope this continues. Though not as great as the IN, they are still better than the IA.

Before blasting the HAL chaps, its not about just adding engineers to the line. The line needs to be kept open. You can keep adding engineers, but, with no order you cannot deliver. I think, HAL is being realistic here. Mark II is not going to fly before 2019 and production will not start till 2022. What they need to do is work out an additional commitment from the IAF to keep the line chugging at a minimum rate till the Mark 2 comes in.

Also, somebody tell Shukla that ADA is not part of DRDO. ADE is part of DRDO.

@MilSpec
IAF is Shaggy Force Sometime I Have to agree with Pakistanis they are still operating Mig-21 beyond 2025 and Behaving Like Elites
 
:rofl:
they already started "postponing drama" on mk2,did they even start any work on it,,,been hearing about mk2 for some years,,nice to see it took years for HAL to realise tht they wont be able to deliver mk2 on time.btw who proposes this timelines in the first place.

indgeenus chai biskut zindabad.
 
Positive quote from the IAF. Hope this continues. Though not as great as the IN, they are still better than the IA.

Before blasting the HAL chaps, its not about just adding engineers to the line. The line needs to be kept open. You can keep adding engineers, but, with no order you cannot deliver. I think, HAL is being realistic here. Mark II is not going to fly before 2019 and production will not start till 2022. What they need to do is work out an additional commitment from the IAF to keep the line chugging at a minimum rate till the Mark 2 comes in.

Also, somebody tell Shukla that ADA is not part of DRDO. ADE is part of DRDO.

@MilSpec
It's slighty complicated, ADA is officially under the MoD, but shares most of it's sr mgmt with DRDO.
 
What the hell ,

Like IAF said, HAL should ramp up production and ask for more orders..
They should make it a habit of delivering ahead of schedule instead of arguing even before delivering.
After all it's a public sector , they need not worry about losses. Just churn it up, and put the ball in IAF court for more orders

Our DM MP should mediate and get iron clad gaurentee s for HAL
 
The tussle between hal and iaf has started again:mad:
Iaf should order 80 mk1p

But where is MK1 ? And how long will it take to complete 40 which are already ordered ? Am sure IaF won't keep the line idle since we need to arrest our fleet depletion . HAL should blame them self . Let's see how long will it take to shed out 1 tone from MK1 which will greatly improve Thrust to weight ratio

What the hell ,

Like IAF said, HAL should ramp up production and ask for more orders..
They should make it a habit of delivering ahead of schedule instead of arguing even before delivering.
After all it's a public sector , they need not worry about losses. Just churn it up, and put the ball in IAF court for more orders

Our DM MP should mediate and get iron clad gaurentee s for HAL

Our agencies should develop futuristic platforms . Why the hell HAL wasting precious workforce to some midget trainers ? Why is this arrogance ? Buy trainers from West and build advanced fighters at home .
 
LCA-1P is the Mark I-A variant under consideration - The significant upgrade includes its EW package - The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package - will also add some 50 kilos of more weight.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.

LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.

The AESA Radar on board will be ELTA EL/M 2052 Solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) -


The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017.

But many ballast allover the body will be removed with appropriate realignment so over all load shed will happen ...But we need to look for tweaking F404 if we are going for 80 more MK1 ... This engine is very underpowered .

They should have first developed and handed over the MK-I instead of the whole tamasha... MkI itself is too late... I wouldn't blame your airforce but these sarkari babus and HAL & ADA..


My opinion..

Babus in HAL like PSU thinks HT40 trainer is more important than MK2 so they have to use their man power to make some trainer and push it down the throat of IAF .Which has already found the replacement and doing well with weapon upgrades .... I really don't know who controls HAL they work for India or for some morons who thinks MK2 is not that worth it.
 

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