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HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

sudhir007

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HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

The Light Utility Helicopter (LuH), which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is designing for the Indian military, has encountered turbulence even before leaving the drawing board. French engine-maker Turbomeca, whose vaunted Shakti engine was to power the LuH, is demanding what Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources term “extortionist prices” for integrating the Shakti with the LuH.

HAL had paid Turbomeca to develop the Shakti engine for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH); and the Shakti also powers the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that HAL is developing. Because the Shakti is custom-designed for the high altitudes — between 15,000 and 20,000 feet — that characterise much of India’s border, and because HAL and Turbomeca will jointly manufacture the engine in India, the Shakti was selected to also power the LuH.
But the Dhruv and the LCH are twin-engine helicopters, while the lighter LuH will fly with a single Shakti engine. That requires Turbomeca to design a new transmission for the LuH. Additionally, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will have to certify the Shakti for single-engine operation. To HAL’s dismay, Turbomeca has demanded Rs 190 crore for these jobs, more than half the LuH’s entire budget of Rs 376 crore.

In formulating the LuH development budget, HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply, to benefit from additional orders of hundreds of Shakti engines over the service life of the LuH.

An outraged HAL board, having decided against paying so much to Turbomeca, has approached other engine-makers — including General Electric, Honeywell, Rolls-Royce, and Pratt & Whitney — for an engine for the LuH.

Reliable MoD sources tell Business Standard that Turbomeca is now negotiating with HAL to compromise on a price for the Shakti. The French company has offered to reduce the cost by Rs 90 crore, provided that the amount is adjusted against its offset liability. But HAL rejected that offer last week, telling Turbomeca that even Rs 100 crore is too high a price. Turbomeca is now preparing a fresh proposal.

Senior HAL sources complain that Turbomeca is taking advantage of the rigid timelines that the defence ministry has imposed on HAL in the LuH project. The MoD has split its order for 384 LuHs between a global tender for 197 ready-built LuHs; and an order for HAL to develop and build 187 LuHs by 2017.
The MoD has specified a target date for each of the LuH’s development milestones: building of a mock-up; the design freeze; the first flight; Initial Operational Clearance, and so on. Each time HAL misses a milestone, its order reduces from 187.

Turbomeca apparently believes that these time obligations reduce HAL’s bargaining leverage. HAL, however, has decided early not to put all its eggs in the Turbomeca basket.

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak — responding to a question from Business Standard whether a new engine for the LuH made sense when the Shakti would allow the standardisation of a common engine across many more helicopters — replied, “We are using the Shakti engine for the Dhruv and for the LCH. It is not necessary to also use it on the LuH. How many helicopter manufacturers use a common engine on three entirely different helicopters? One should not overdo the standardisation aspect”.

So far, HAL is comfortably beating the MoD clock and plans to beat the 2017 deadline by a full two years. It has built a mock-up within the timeline; plans to freeze the LuH design by the end of this year; fly the LuH for the first time by 2012; certify it by 2014, and begin delivery by 2015.
 
HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply

So HAL assumption of "cheap french" turned out to be wrong.
 
^^ Good going HAL...we should not put every egg in single basket..French should know that we have options..I hope this does not impact RAFALE..
 
HAL Sets itself up for such blackmail.... hope it learns a lesson for next time...
 
HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

The Light Utility Helicopter (LuH), which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is designing for the Indian military, has encountered turbulence even before leaving the drawing board. French engine-maker Turbomeca, whose vaunted Shakti engine was to power the LuH, is demanding what Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources term “extortionist prices” for integrating the Shakti with the LuH.

HAL had paid Turbomeca to develop the Shakti engine for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH); and the Shakti also powers the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that HAL is developing. Because the Shakti is custom-designed for the high altitudes — between 15,000 and 20,000 feet — that characterise much of India’s border, and because HAL and Turbomeca will jointly manufacture the engine in India, the Shakti was selected to also power the LuH.
But the Dhruv and the LCH are twin-engine helicopters, while the lighter LuH will fly with a single Shakti engine. That requires Turbomeca to design a new transmission for the LuH. Additionally, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will have to certify the Shakti for single-engine operation. To HAL’s dismay, Turbomeca has demanded Rs 190 crore for these jobs, more than half the LuH’s entire budget of Rs 376 crore.

In formulating the LuH development budget, HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply, to benefit from additional orders of hundreds of Shakti engines over the service life of the LuH.

An outraged HAL board, having decided against paying so much to Turbomeca, has approached other engine-makers — including General Electric, Honeywell, Rolls-Royce, and Pratt & Whitney — for an engine for the LuH.

Reliable MoD sources tell Business Standard that Turbomeca is now negotiating with HAL to compromise on a price for the Shakti. The French company has offered to reduce the cost by Rs 90 crore, provided that the amount is adjusted against its offset liability. But HAL rejected that offer last week, telling Turbomeca that even Rs 100 crore is too high a price. Turbomeca is now preparing a fresh proposal.

Senior HAL sources complain that Turbomeca is taking advantage of the rigid timelines that the defence ministry has imposed on HAL in the LuH project. The MoD has split its order for 384 LuHs between a global tender for 197 ready-built LuHs; and an order for HAL to develop and build 187 LuHs by 2017.
The MoD has specified a target date for each of the LuH’s development milestones: building of a mock-up; the design freeze; the first flight; Initial Operational Clearance, and so on. Each time HAL misses a milestone, its order reduces from 187.

Turbomeca apparently believes that these time obligations reduce HAL’s bargaining leverage. HAL, however, has decided early not to put all its eggs in the Turbomeca basket.

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak — responding to a question from Business Standard whether a new engine for the LuH made sense when the Shakti would allow the standardisation of a common engine across many more helicopters — replied, “We are using the Shakti engine for the Dhruv and for the LCH. It is not necessary to also use it on the LuH. How many helicopter manufacturers use a common engine on three entirely different helicopters? One should not overdo the standardisation aspect”.

So far, HAL is comfortably beating the MoD clock and plans to beat the 2017 deadline by a full two years. It has built a mock-up within the timeline; plans to freeze the LuH design by the end of this year; fly the LuH for the first time by 2012; certify it by 2014, and begin delivery by 2015.

Wasn't there news that HAL will develop an own engine for LUH and rejected the idea of a new co-development?
Also, isn't the Shakti engine overpowered for LUH? Shakti has 1400 shp, while the engines from those helicopters in the LUH competition have 2 x 450 Ka 226, or 847 for the EC Fennec.
 
Wasn't there news that HAL will develop an own engine for LUH and rejected the idea of a new co-development?
Also, isn't the Shakti engine overpowered for LUH? Shakti has 1400 shp, while the engines from those helicopters in the LUH competition have 2 x 450 Ka 226, or 847 for the EC Fennec.

more power will enable operation in very high altitude areas !!
there more power will be extremely helpful .....
 
more power will enable operation in very high altitude areas !!
there more power will be extremely helpful .....

more power will only result in higher maintainance cost
and less fuel economy.....:police:
also with extra powered engine comes extra weight:hitwall:
 
so, it's not indigenous indian engine that they always claim to be..and not even a JV!

it's just a customized product for customer. i pay you make.lol

----

"As the Indian Dhruv helicopter has developed, its weight has increased and its range of operation has expanded, in particular with regard to operations at high altitude and in high temperatures. This means that the needs of the Indian manufacturer have evolved, necessitating more powerful engines. “Turbomeca offered to take part in the development of a new 1200 shp engine for HAL,” Philippe Couteaux goes on to say. “The result of this was the Ardiden 1H, or Shakti as it is known in India ( [1]). This engine not only offers more power, particularly at high altitude and in high temperatures, but also increased time between overhaul, ultimately extending to 6000 hours TBO.” According to the terms of the industrial agreement now in place, Turbomeca is responsible for the development (89%) and manufacturing (83%) of the engine assemblies, with HAL developing and manufacturing the remaining parts. Final assembly takes place at Bordes (France) in the Turbomeca installations."
Ardiden takes to the skies

---
 
I'm sorry but I am confused, is the Light Utility Helo (LUH) the same as the Light Observation Helo (LOH) or are they completly different projects?
So is this pic below the LOH or LUH although it does say LOH on the tail

800px-HAL_LOH.jpg
 
an answer please
LUH (same as LOH) is in 3-tonne category. Like, reconnaisance role; where this job can be accomplished by LUH.

Please dont confuse it with ALH which is in the 5 tonne category.
 
HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply

"Assumption" and that too in "business".

Is the HAL board really that naive or just pretending to be that way?
 
more power will only result in higher maintainance cost
and less fuel economy.....
also with extra powered engine comes extra weight

there's something called power to weight ratio..... and hal is not an idiot as they have decided to use shakti eng on luh.... also it isn't that heavy as compared to other engines on lite choppers like eurocopter AS350.....
 
HAL Sets itself up for such blackmail.... hope it learns a lesson for next time...

Dear Sir,

That is wholly undeserved. I speak as a fringe participant in such discussions. An enormous amount of work goes into each aspect separately, the commercial and the technical. Every aspect that can be thought of is put on the table and discussed threadbare, consensus achieved and minuted for CH's approval, or the appropriate MD's approval, and then the negotiations with the supplier began.

My personal experience has been that the French are extremely difficult to pin down. The Germans and the British are infinitely better. Russian decisions are taken at a very high level and people down the line more or less execute those decisions to mutual satisfaction. Returning to the French, when they find that the situation demands their positive intervention, it is difficult to find a more cooperative partner. Doors fly open, previously unreachable technical expertise is available across the table in our own manufacturing plant, processes which are sacred are waived with a careless wave of the hands. But normally - only the Japanese are tougher to deal with. I have no experience with the Chinese, but they are difficult in their own way, according to reports.

Whatever HAL management shortcomings, lack of preparation is not one of them. Sometimes, as has happened in this case, outright commitments in writing are not taken on every single aspect of a purchase, sometimes on the grounds of time-saving. This can later bite the procurement department in the ankle.

sincerely,
 
so, it's not indigenous indian engine that they always claim to be..and not even a JV!

it's just a customized product for customer. i pay you make.lol

----

"As the Indian Dhruv helicopter has developed, its weight has increased and its range of operation has expanded, in particular with regard to operations at high altitude and in high temperatures. This means that the needs of the Indian manufacturer have evolved, necessitating more powerful engines. “Turbomeca offered to take part in the development of a new 1200 shp engine for HAL,” Philippe Couteaux goes on to say. “The result of this was the Ardiden 1H, or Shakti as it is known in India ( [1]). This engine not only offers more power, particularly at high altitude and in high temperatures, but also increased time between overhaul, ultimately extending to 6000 hours TBO.” According to the terms of the industrial agreement now in place, Turbomeca is responsible for the development (89%) and manufacturing (83%) of the engine assemblies, with HAL developing and manufacturing the remaining parts. Final assembly takes place at Bordes (France) in the Turbomeca installations."
Ardiden takes to the skies

---

Dear Sir,

A short answer: no, that is not correct, not the way it is projected. This particular matter - it was long after my time - was probably what PSUs describe as a joint development, whereby all of a JV except the ownership of shares is in place. I do have some insight into SNECMA dealings with aerospace in India, though not this particular case, and can assure you that their desire to get pole position has led to a great deal more cooperation and transparency (overall) than normally the case!

Sincerely,
 
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