Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

Inter faith is against Islam, it is forbidden to worship in such a place, might as well build a parking lot then. Tell the Catholics to allow the same or the Jews and let's see if they take your wisdom. Right now they're bitterly opposed to anything Islamic in America and Europe.

 

[Tshering22]

Why would a Muslim group build an 'interfaith cultural center'? They are building an Islamic Center to cater primarily to the needs of the Muslims community and project the 'true' side of Islam.
Will Christians, Jews and Hindus stop building Churches, Synagogues and Temples now, and instead construct 'interfaith cultural centers'? What about any existing Churches and Synagogues around Ground Zero? Will they be converted to 'interfaith cultural centers'?

This is why exactly the Americans are not happy and the protests took place. They are pissed that everytime Muslims make a special case of themselves while in the attack people of all communities equally suffered the deaths of their loved ones.

The protests might have been what you think is by your political opposition but seriously guys, this building of a mosque alone won't fetch you what you are intending to gain. It will only worsen things.

A non-community based neutral memorial at the site was a much better idea and something which could have perhaps reconciled differences between Americans and Muslims.

Since the bill is passed and people cannot do much, they'd vent it out where they can.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

nw just mix all the jews,and christians and muzlumz and you get a perfect athiest out of them, may be thats the logic behind it ..

 

[Neither Right Nor Wrong]

Inter faith is against Islam, it is forbidden to worship in such a place, might as well build a parking lot then

Well then building a"Inter faith parking lot is a much better idea"..if this endeavour has to be successful, then all religious community have to be a bit flexible...including muslims.

Tell the Catholics to allow the same or the Jews and let's see if they take your wisdom. Right now they're bitterly opposed to anything Islamic in America and Europe.

"This bitter opposition"
Is that not, what they are trying to remove by building a mosque near ground zero...if not, then is all this exercise, is it only to prove a point that "9/11 had nothing to with Islam"??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is why exactly the Americans are not happy and the protests took place. They are pissed that everytime Muslims make a special case of themselves while in the attack people of all communities equally suffered the deaths of their loved ones.

The protests might have been what you think is by your political opposition but seriously guys, this building of a mosque alone won't fetch you what you are intending to gain. It will only worsen things.

A non-community based neutral memorial at the site was a much better idea and something which could have perhaps reconciled differences between Americans and Muslims.

Since the bill is passed and people cannot do much, they'd vent it out where they can.

How are Muslims making a 'special case' for themselves? The building concerned was put up for sale and is badly damaged, and there are no zoning restrcitions preventing the construction of religious institutions in that area. All funds are being raised privately. A Church and Jewish Temple already exist in the vicinity.

So what exactly is the 'special case' here? Or are you too resorting to speaking out of ignorance like so many opposing the Center?

 

[gambit]

Yes, the current Japanese American community could argue they have nothing to do with Imperial Japan, which is why they wouldn't really be asking for a memorial/center commemorating 'Japan' ON the Arizona, nor would one be approved. Japan attacked the US as a nation, Muslims and Islam did not attack the WTC as representatives of all Muslims or Islam, therefore the analogy does not work.

On the other hand, if Japanese Americans want to build a Buddhist temple to cater to their community BY the Arizona on private property, they have every right to do so and should be allowed to do so.

Not 'Japanese-American' but Japanese. Although am an immigrant to the US, I claim Hawaii as my home state because Hawaii is a large part of my formative years. I know about this issue. Japanese-Americans are also Buddhists, Shintoists, Christians and atheists. No Japanese would ever propose any sort of 'community center', religiously based or otherwise, that would associate Imperial Japan, to be so near to the Arizona Memorial. A 'muslim' cannot be anything else but. A 'mosque' cannot be associated to any other religion but Islam. Japanese and Hawaiian Japanese-Americans are more sensitive about the Arizona Memorial regarding Japan than muslims seems to be about NYC Ground Zero.

I don't see every Christian-American in the US up in arms over the bigotry and hatred espoused by many American Evangelical Churches, why should every Muslim-American be expected to be up in arms over what a particular mosque does or does not do? If I am part of that Islamic Center's congregation and contribute to it, yes, I have an obligation to speak up about what happens there. But don't expect me to take responsibility for happens in a mosque in New York that I never frequent or support, from my home in Michigan.

My support for the mosque is based on what I perceive to be a matter of principle - a proposed Japanese-American temple by the Arizona on private land would get similar support from me.

None of those evangelical Christian churches have their own militant military wings, do they? Speech is countered by speech or equally effective -- indifference. But al-Qaeda backed up its jihadist speech and MILITARY ACTIONS with appropriate citations from the Quran. You can call it a 'hijacking' of Islam but for all we care, it was not 'Jesus Saves' but 'Allahu Akbar' that was a war cry, not just on NYC on Sept 11, 2001 but for many other Islam related incidents since then. Indifference is no longer an option for ordinary muslims IF the 'hijacking of Islam' protest is to be credible. Same for countering jihadist speech with sermons that while claiming to 'condemn' terrorists and terrorism, those same sermons mightily strains to involve US or Israel to varying degrees of culpability of said terrorism, effectively saying we are to blame for any Islam related killings since 9/11.

A 'non-state' actor cannot claim to speak and act on behalf of a state, which has finite geographical and political boundaries. But that 'non-state' actor can claim to speak on behalf of a community, or a 'nation', and the ummah is very much a nation. Osama bin Laden did not claimed to act on behalf of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or Yemen. He claimed authority from the muslim nation itself and the target -- US -- does not have to bear the burden of distinguishing any differences, no matter how subtle or obvious, on who among the muslim nation, can rightly speak and MILITARILY ACT on its behalf. The American state can respond but only in kind and that was the Afghanistan campaign. But the American nation will also respond in kind when we formulate our perception of the muslim nation and that judgment, or 'bigotry' if you wish, will be based upon how the American muslim community respond to jihadist speeches in our midst.

 

[Kompromat]

Good stuff - it will create a divide between Muslims and Terrorists & will be a reminder that Islam had nothing to do with Al Qaida or 9/11.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

Unfortunately gambit your argument is undercut by the fact it's not a traditional mosque.

As revealed in the other thread, it is more like a community center than a mosque. Nobody would say a YMCA is a church even though it has Christian in the name.

It is simply called a mosque by Bloomberg and others as a vernacular, but it really isn't. A true mosque to me would have tall mosque towers, require barefoot entrance and require permission for entrance of non-Muslims.

By the way there is a very good reason why Muslims do not speak out much against jihadist speeches. Because of devastating reprisal to family and friends. So, most condemnations are by large Muslim organizations from men and women who have dedicated their lives to fighting extremist Islam, and as a consequence have to wear bulletproof vests and look behind their backs their whole life like abortion doctors. Not the average Muslim who absolutely does not agree with those views but doesn't want to spend his whole life in fear.

 

[SurvivoR]

self delete

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not 'Japanese-American' but Japanese. Although am an immigrant to the US, I claim Hawaii as my home state because Hawaii is a large part of my formative years. I know about this issue. Japanese-Americans are also Buddhists, Shintoists, Christians and atheists. No Japanese would ever propose any sort of 'community center', religiously based or otherwise, that would associate Imperial Japan, to be so near to the Arizona Memorial. A 'muslim' cannot be anything else but. A 'mosque' cannot be associated to any other religion but Islam. Japanese and Hawaiian Japanese-Americans are more sensitive about the Arizona Memorial regarding Japan than muslims seems to be about NYC Ground Zero.

Whether or not Japanese Americans would advocate for a temple of whatever they worship is irrelevant - what is relevant is that if the Japanese American community have the need to construct a temple on private property that happens to be close to the Arizona memorial with their own funds, then there is no logical reason to oppose such a project. Any such temple/house of worship would be for catering to the religious/cultural needs of a particular community, and not necessarily for 'insulting Americans', as some insecure Americans appear to feel.

None of those evangelical Christian churches have their own militant military wings, do they? Speech is countered by speech or equally effective -- indifference. But al-Qaeda backed up its jihadist speech and MILITARY ACTIONS with appropriate citations from the Quran. You can call it a 'hijacking' of Islam but for all we care, it was not 'Jesus Saves' but 'Allahu Akbar' that was a war cry, not just on NYC on Sept 11, 2001 but for many other Islam related incidents since then. Indifference is no longer an option for ordinary muslims IF the 'hijacking of Islam' protest is to be credible. Same for countering jihadist speech with sermons that while claiming to 'condemn' terrorists and terrorism, those same sermons mightily strains to involve US or Israel to varying degrees of culpability of said terrorism, effectively saying we are to blame for any Islam related killings since 9/11.

As far as I know most mosques in the US don't have their 'militant military wings' either, so what is your point, other to bash Islam and Muslims by constructing a strawman based on a hypothetical scenario?

And my 'indifference' to any terrorist attack, whether in the name of Islam or not, shall be equal to the indifference of the average non-Muslim American to such an attack. I have no responsibility to account for or apologize for actions that I do not condone and that are not carried out by people chosen by me to represent anything.

And yes, the US and Israel do varying degrees of blame for the rise of extremism and terrorism because of their policies - that is fact. To try and weasel the US and Israel out of culpability by threatening to label those making those factual and logical connections between US/Israely policy and terrorism/extremism is a reprehensible and disingenuous position to take, albeit one taken often by the NeoCons and even some 'ultra-patriotic liberals' in America.

A 'non-state' actor cannot claim to speak and act on behalf of a state, which has finite geographical and political boundaries. But that 'non-state' actor can claim to speak on behalf of a community, or a 'nation', and the ummah is very much a nation. Osama bin Laden did not claimed to act on behalf of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or Yemen. He claimed authority from the muslim nation itself and the target -- US -- does not have to bear the burden of distinguishing any differences, no matter how subtle or obvious, on who among the muslim nation, can rightly speak and MILITARILY ACT on its behalf. The American state can respond but only in kind and that was the Afghanistan campaign. But the American nation will also respond in kind when we formulate our perception of the muslim nation and that judgment, or 'bigotry' if you wish, will be based upon how the American muslim community respond to jihadist speeches in our midst.

That non-state actor can claim to speak on behalf of Mickey Mouse for all I care, but that does not make Disney Studios culpable or any more responsible for his/her crimes.

Neither I nor any other Muslim can prevent individuals anywhere around the world from absorbing poison and taking up an extremist cause. We Muslims granted no one authority, certainly not OBL and Al Qaeda. That OBL 'claimed authority' on behalf of Muslims does not make us responsible since we did not grant it. We do not have to 'prove' our credibility to you, and we do not care whether you think we did not not, since bigots can never be satisfied in any case.

I have no doubt that people like you will generalize, stereotype, denigrate and 'pronounce judgment' on all Muslims - bigotry is not isolated by race or nationality, and the US has plenty of it. But there are also many Americans like Bloomberg who reject such bigotry, and American Muslims will fight for what is right with their support, and the support of the system.

Nonetheless, attitudes such as yours and those displayed by the conservatives in the US towards the proposed mosque and the implicit vilification of all Muslims and Islam in their opposition to the mosque should be a huge warning for American Muslims that significant part of the right in American should not be trusted and supported at the ballot box.

As I said before, 'Muslims' have nothing to be remorseful about.

I am a Muslim - the 911 attacks were not carried out in my name nor did I authorize AQ or OBL in anyway to take actions on my behalf. I am not obligated to show any more, or less, sentiment towards the attacks than any other American.

 

[gambit]

Whether or not Japanese Americans would advocate for a temple of whatever they worship is irrelevant - what is relevant is that if the Japanese American community have the need to construct a temple on private property that happens to be close to the Arizona memorial with their own funds, then there is no logical reason to oppose such a project. Any such temple/house of worship would be for catering to the religious/cultural needs of a particular community, and not necessarily for 'insulting Americans', as some insecure Americans appear to feel.

It is very relevant in that the Hawaiian Japanese-Americans are overwhelmingly loyal Americans. After Dec 7, 1941, many able men were willing to enlist to fight against their ancestral country. Even after mainland Japanese-Americans were interned, Japanese-Americans remained loyal Americans. We know that Japanese will not ask to build anything remotely resembling any sort of 'center' near the Arizona Memorial. We know that if Hawaiian Japanese-Americans want to build anything similar to what is in discussion, it would not be construed as an 'insult' to the Memorial precisely because Japanese-Americans have proven themselves to be loyal Americans in the worst of time. But the issue here is sensitivity, basic decency and respect and we know that not even Hawaiian Japanese-Americans would not want to build anything near the Memorial.

And yes, the US and Israel do varying degrees of blame for the rise of extremism and terrorism because of their policies - that is fact.

Thnx. That is all the confirmation Americans need to see.

 

[gambit]

Unfortunately gambit your argument is undercut by the fact it's not a traditional mosque.

As revealed in the other thread, it is more like a community center than a mosque. Nobody would say a YMCA is a church even though it has Christian in the name.

It is simply called a mosque by Bloomberg and others as a vernacular, but it really isn't. A true mosque to me would have tall mosque towers, require barefoot entrance and require permission for entrance of non-Muslims.

By the way there is a very good reason why Muslims do not speak out much against jihadist speeches. Because of devastating reprisal to family and friends. So, most condemnations are by large Muslim organizations from men and women who have dedicated their lives to fighting extremist Islam, and as a consequence have to wear bulletproof vests and look behind their backs their whole life like abortion doctors. Not the average Muslim who absolutely does not agree with those views but doesn't want to spend his whole life in fear.

I do not care. And I have said several times already that personally speaking, I have no objections to its presence. Let it be built. Just as the ummah have expressed indifference despite its crocodile tears that Islam have been 'hijacked' by extremists, representatives of the ummah in America, American muslims, WILL do nothing when extremists take over this 'community center' and preach their anti-US jihadist sermons.

 

[shaka_shaka]

May be the US should build a 'memorial' in Baghdad in remembrance of American deaths. We can include Iraqi soldiers as well if the local protests are loud enough.

I am afraid if you dont pull out your troops out of pakistan stationed near our nuclear facilities and tarbela ghazi, baluchistan etc.

you may have to appeal for more memorials.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is very relevant in that the Hawaiian Japanese-Americans are overwhelmingly loyal Americans. After Dec 7, 1941, many able men were willing to enlist to fight against their ancestral country. Even after mainland Japanese-Americans were interned, Japanese-Americans remained loyal Americans. We know that Japanese will not ask to build anything remotely resembling any sort of 'center' near the Arizona Memorial. We know that if Hawaiian Japanese-Americans want to build anything similar to what is in discussion, it would not be construed as an 'insult' to the Memorial precisely because Japanese-Americans have proven themselves to be loyal Americans in the worst of time. But the issue here is sensitivity, basic decency and respect and we know that not even Hawaiian Japanese-Americans would not want to build anything near the Memorial.

Being a loyal American has nothing whatsoever to do with the community one belongs to constructing a house of worship at a particular spot. If there is ever a need by the Japanese American community to construct a house of worship on private land close to the Arizona memorial, and they choose not to do so, it won't be out of some misplaced sense of 'loyalty' as you describe it, but likely because of a fear from the history of Japanese Americans being put in internment camps and being discriminated against on the basis of their origin.

The problem, as in the case of the NYC Mosque, arises when bigots generalize and denigrate an entire community because of their faith, and not because of the actions of that community

Thnx. That is all the confirmation Americans need to see.

No, that is all the confirmation bigots like you, with their heads up their rear ends with respect to US and Israeli culpability in the extremism we see today, need. The State Dept. in the current US administration has already accepted to a degree the responsibility US policies bear for the terrorism and extremism in Afghanistan and Pakistan - it is only people like you still clinging to a infallible and impossible vision of the US.

And as I said earlier, bigots will never be satisfied, and Muslims therefore should not even consider 'establishing their credibility' or any other such nonsense. I certainly am not going to. Don't expect me to do any more than a non-Muslim American - or rather, you can 'expect and demand' all you want, it ain't happening, and nothing you can do about it either.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

American muslims, WILL do nothing when extremists take over this 'community center' and preach their anti-US jihadist sermons.

Anti-US foreign policy speeches are not anti-US - there are plenty of non-Muslims who criticize US foreign policy, past and present, just as harshly.

Now if by 'jihadist' you mean to suggest that there will be people in the mosque preaching and plotting violence against the US, then I think that issue should be addressed through action by the FBI.

I am personally not aware of any mosque in the US that actively preaches violence against America.