France OKs Sub Talks With Pakistan

[Cheetah786]

congradulation to president mushy for another good job done for pakistan.

 

[MOO]

Armaris Offers Pakistan Licensed Production of 3 Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabad’s diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.

“This is one deal we have to win,” the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.

Germany’s HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said.
The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.

In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, France’s DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.

Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistan’s charge.

Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales.

In Bulgaria’s tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.

The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris’ Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2100125&C=europe

 

[Neo]

Pakistan to buy submarines from vying France, Germany

ISLAMABAD, September 13, 2006: French and German defence firms are vying to sell Pakistan at least three new submarines, in a deal that could be worth up to $1.5 billion, officials and diplomats told Reuters.

Pakistan is still mulling its options.

"A Marlin class submarine is one of the proposals being considered," a defence official said, asking not to be named.

Armaris, the joint marketing arm of France's state-owned DCN International and Thales SA, submitted the proposal for Marlin submarines, defence sources said.

A German defence firm is competing for the contract, a western diplomatic source said without elaborating.

The last of three Agosta 90B submarines supplied by DCN, on a transfer of technology basis, joined the Pakistan Navy last month.

LINK:
Pakistan to buy submarines from vying France, Germany

 

[Quwa]

This submarine deal will likely decide the future of many of the Navy's acquisitions in the future - as it will be used to squeeze discounts and what not. Germany in my opinion is a frontrunner for its relatively lower unit costs - compared to French weapons; as long as we have relations with the U.S, buying from Germany should not be a problem.

 

[Neo]

I went to Armaris website. Couldnt find any info about Marlin ssk

http://www.armarisgroup.com/uk/HTML/products.html

Rahman,

I got this article off WAB.
Its in French but that should not be a problem for you.

Accueil > Défense > Euronaval 2006

Sous-marins : Le Marlin se dévoile

Voir le diaporama

13/10/2006


Nous vous proposons ce matin de découvrir, en avant première, le Marlin, nouveau sous-marin d'attaque conçu par DCN. Tirant son nom d'un poisson de l'océan Indien, ce navire, dérivé du Scorpène, étudié en commun avec l'Espagnol Navantia, sera exclusivement destiné au marché export. Paris et Madrid, qui ont pour le moment vendu 10 Scorpène au Chili, à la Malaisie et à l'Inde, ont en effet décidé de proposer, chacun de leur côté, un produit purement national. Après les S 80 espagnols, DCN met donc en ligne le Marlin. D'une longueur de 75 mètres pour un déplacement de 1850 tonnes en plongée, le Marlin est proposé directement avec le système de propulsion en circuit fermé (AIP) MESMA, développé par DCN propulsion et installé pour la première fois sur l'Hamza, le troisième Agosta 90B pakistanais, lancé cet été à Karachi. Par rapport à ce bâtiment, dont le MESMA fonctionne à l'éthanol, l'AIP du Marlin fonctionnera au gasoil, ce qui permettra de ne disposer que d'un type de réserve à combustible, alimentant à la fois ce système, mais également les moteurs diesels. Par rapport à la propulsion classique, l'AIP augmente considérablement l'autonomie du sous-marin en plongée, passant de quatre à cinq jours, à près de trois semaines. Mais, bien que représentant un bond technologique certain, le système de propulsion en circuit fermé a lui aussi ses limites. Utilisable pour les patrouilles, il ne peut être que difficilement mis en Suvre pour les transits, surtout quand ils sont longs : « avec l'AIP, une fois les réserves à oxygène ou à hydrogène vidée, c'est terminé. Donc si le navire n'est pas basiquement un bon sous-marin, on ne va pas bien loin », souligne un spécialiste.

Héritier du Triomphant et prédécesseur du Barracuda

En plus du MESMA, le bâtiment a donc été doté d'une puissante motorisation. Pour les transits en mode de propulsion classique, la puissance de ses diesels lui permet de recharger plus rapidement ses batteries, ce qui est présenté par DCN comme un véritable avantage commercial par rapport à ses concurrents, comme le type 212/214 allemand. Extérieurement, la principale différence du Marlin par rapport au Scorpène résidera dans l'adoption de barres de plongées en forme de croix de Saint André. Ce dispositif, qui sera repris sur les sous-marins nucléaires d'attaque du type Barracuda, permet une meilleure manoeuvrabilité. Bien que ressemblant aux SNA du type Améthyste, le Scorpène, qui sert de base au Marlin, « doit plus au Triomphant qu'au Rubis au point de vue architecture et technologie. Ses capacités de détection sont exceptionnelles, il est rapide et silencieux à vitesse élevée », explique un proche du dossier. Doté d'un système de combat SUBTICS et de nouvelles bases sonar très efficaces, même à grande vitesse, le Scorpène, comme le Marlin, constituent, selon DCN, un saut technologique en matière d'ergonomie et de traitement de l'information. Les innovations installées sur le Scorpène, notamment en matière de tuyauterie ou de câblage, seront reprises sur le Marlin, comme sur le Barracuda. Navire océanique, le Marlin sera doté de missiles antinavires Exocet SM 39, de torpilles lourdes et, éventuellement, de mines. Pour DCN, ce nouveau produit n'est pas un remplaçant du Scorpène. « Ce dernier doit rester dans la gamme des produits proposés », assure-t-on chez l'industriel. Un premier contrat avec le Pakistan est espéré. Islamabad doit prendre sa décision à la fin du premier semestre 2007.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102622

Open the link for an artits impression of the Marlin.

 

[EagleEyes]

Are these submarines too coming with transfer of technology basis? Its time that we should try German subs, they are beasting.

 

[Neo]

Are these submarines too coming with transfer of technology basis? Its time that we should try German subs, they are beasting.

I believe we're only interested in purchase with full ToT.
PN was very specific about the design, performance and number of blasdes in the propulsion...all signs that Marlin would be our future SSN!!
Marlin is the gap between SSK Scorpene and the SSN Baracuda and uses a lot of technology and subsystems from the latter.

 

[nanovae]

Basically what Pakistan is being offered are newer version of improve Scorpion subs with the request to integrate Harpoon missiles onboard.

If I was Pakistan I would rather prefer buying new Chinese diesel-electric Yuan class SSK.


YJ-8X Anti-ship missile (Twice the range of the Exocet):

Are you really aware of the technological gap beetwen occidental SSK concept (best are german and french) and the chinese one ?
I don't think so.
Do you see chinese selling SSK to important countries ?
You don't ask yourself why ?

 

[Nasir]

Pakistan to acquire three latest subs

* German, French companies to bid for contracts
* Subs to cost Pakistan Rs 77b

By Iqbal Khattak

PARIS: Pakistan will acquire three new advanced versions of conventional submarines to increase its naval capabilities to meet any challenges from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, a French Defence Ministry spokesman said.

The spokesman said that German and French companies would bid to win the contract for the three submarines, which were said to be the latest version of the Agosta submarines a French company recently built in Karachi, which India has already acquired. “We will offer (Pakistan) Marlin submarines to compete with the German bid for its U-212 submarines,” Jean-Francois Bureau, the French Defence Ministry spokesman in Paris, told Daily Times late Tuesday evening. Pakistan will need to pay around one billion euros or Rs 77 billion for the three non-nuclear submarines. The quest for new submarines comes after India reached a 1.5 billion euro deal last year with a French company for seven Scorpion submarines – even more recent than the Agosta submarines that Pakistan built last year in Karachi under licence from a French company.

But even with the Marlin or U-212 submarines, the Pakistan Navy will lag behind the Indians, as the Scorpion submarines are believed to be technologically superior.

France-Pakistan defence relations improved after the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but received a serious setback in 2002 when 11 French engineers were killed in a suicide attack near the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi.

But military relations between Pakistan and France resumed after the attack on the French engineers, the French Defence Ministry spokesman said after a briefing to a group of visiting journalists from Pakistan. France does not sell nuclear-powered submarines “as a matter of policy” said the spokesman to dispel the impression that the new submarines could carry nuclear weapons. He said the “question of regional stability” was the criterion for selling French-made weapons to countries around the world, hoping Pakistan and India would stay away from the arms race.

The Scorpion subs are technologically superior to the Agosta, Marlin and U-212 submarines. However, Scorpion subs cannot carry nuclear weapons and India will not get them before 2016.If the French company wins the bid, Pakistan will have to wait for eight years before getting the submarines, the spokesman added.

Jean-Francois Bureau said senior Pakistani and French military officials would meet January next year in either Paris or Islamabad to strengthen relations between the two armies.He said there was potential for the two armies to strengthen relations and did not rule out joint military exercises in future saying, “We are not against joint exercises with Pakistan.” The spokesman said that France was helping Pakistan upgrade its Mirage fighters in Kamra near Islamabad and a Pakistan army officer was attending courses at a French staff college.

h..ttp://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C11%5C09%5Cstory_9-11-2006_pg7_11

 

[A.Rahman]

As far as I know the Marlin is considered to be an upgraded Scorpion and not technologically inferior to Scorpion. I also have a problem with the statement that PN is interested in German 212. That is not the case. They were interested in U-214 and not in U-212.

I strongly believe that the statement Scorpion being a superior submarine is that of the reporter Iqbal Khattak and shows a lack of knowledge about the submarines.

 

[Neo]

The Scorpion subs are technologically superior to the Agosta, Marlin and U-212 submarines.

What a load of crap!

Pakistan can build more agosta as we've acquired full ToT, the third vessel is even a modified and bigger version than the first two, yet we'd opts for a much more expansive yet to be built design which would be inferior to Scorpene?

Even an amature like me knows it better.

 

[Contrarian]

guys, which would be the latest and best sub these days?

i mean like we can all blindly say that F-22 is the best fighter out there.so which sub would be the AF's counterpart for F-22??

 

[Neo]

Both Marlin and the U-214 are believed to be superior to Kilo and the future SSN Barracuda would outclass any russian ssn design.
Only the US has heavier SSN.

 

[Neo]

Nanovae,

Could you please do us a favor and try to find technical data on Marlin aswell as performances.

Its been reported before that the Marlin will have some state of the art technology specially being developped for the Barracuda. How advanced is the Barracuda?
I'd like to see DCN reports if they're available.

Since you live in France I'm sure you'll be effective in finding the info.

Merci!

 

[Keysersoze]

guys, which would be the latest and best sub these days?

i mean like we can all blindly say that F-22 is the best fighter out there.so which sub would be the AF's counterpart for F-22??

I would say the Seawolf class SSN

Both the US and GB have new subs in the pipeline....