Ex President and Ex COAS General Pervez Musharraf Passes Away

[VCheng]

He did not let the Americans dominate Pakistan despite all the talk of giving in to the Americans. He played it tactfully giving rope where he could and being steadfast where he absolutely needed to be. This was solid leadership in extremely testing times.

And yet look at where Pakistan has ended up now with respect to not only USA, but the international community as a whole. And now we have neither the hounds nor the hares to show for the price paid for such policies.

 

[blain2]

This video from Moeed Pirzada sums up things nicely. A few points:
1) Musharraf had a very 'humane' side unlike the cruel, 'makkar' Zia ul Haq.
2) Even before 9/11's American aid, Musharraf had started to revive the Pakistani economy between Oct. 1999 and 9/11; according to Moeed, Pakistan's economy was even worse than it is today as far as foreign reserves.
3) Among Musharraf's sin: The Kargil War and the killing of Akbar Bugti. I agree: Both were huge blunders.
4) Musharraf was an 'urbane' man.; intrinsically a liberal and a reformist. According to Moeed, the 'rural' background which afflicts most of Pakistan is hard to overcome.

On #3

Why do we hold Kargil against him? I wonder all the time.

He did that to further Pakistan's Kashmir claim. In IK's time, our claim on IoK became a non-claim yet nobody holds that against the great Khan sahib.

Kargil is across the LoC, not IB. It is the Indian side which pushes the narrative that LoC is sacrosanct as it is in their interest to portray this view. Their intervention at Siachen was a clear breakaway from this so called sanctity of the LoC and whatever lies "thence north to the glaciers".

So we self-flaggelate over this while the Indians have no qualms about doing the very same at Siachen and at a cost of far more men and material since 1984. We should have some perspective.

Bugti sahib committed suicide. Figuratively and literally that is. He took up arms against the state. Something that no one would tolerate if MQM did so, yet BLA and variants and TTP for some reason always find a soft corner in the hearts of some here and elsewhere. Bugti sahib is remembered as "shaheed" yet the poor officers of the army who went inside his cave to negotiate and were martyred are forgotten among many other uniformed personnel who died at the hands of Bugti's supporters.

 

[VCheng]

He did that to further Pakistan's Kashmir claim.

Could you please elaborate on how exactly did Kargil further Pakistan's claims on Kashmir?

 

[blain2]

And yet look at where Pakistan has ended up now with respect to not only USA, but the international community as a whole. And now we have neither the hounds nor the hares to show for the price paid for such policies.

This is still playing out. I think things of this sort take a much longer time to manifest themselves. I am not disagreeing that we have paid a significant price for these policies, but whether they benefit us or not needs more time to be evaluated from the strategic lens.

Could you please elaborate on how exactly did Kargil further Pakistan's claims on Kashmir?

At the very minimum, Kashmir remains a red-line for Pakistan and its an issue that is alive and kicking for Pakistan no matter how India tries to present it.
The very conflict led to serious peace talks which would have never happened if Kargil had not transpired.

The other option is to just let it die (like it is now under both the PTI/PDM governments). Maybe this is the right thing for Pakistan..

 

[VCheng]

This is still playing out. I think things of this sort take a much longer time to manifest themselves. I am not disagreeing that we have paid a significant price for these policies, but whether they benefit us or not needs more time to be evaluated from the strategic lens.

Yes, the consequences are still playing out, but overall the trend of where things are going is increasingly clear, is it not? Kargil and the AQ Khan affair were just the first one-two gut punches in the knockout round. But you are correct. The next round is still to be completed.

 

[Goenitz]

His greatest achievement..... freedom of press.... But Gujrat ka chaudry destroyed his political carrier by giving NRO to known corrupts.

This and local body elections.

 

[ghazi52]

,..,.,

Former military ruler Musharraf’s body to be repatriated to Pakistan today​

FO says Pakistan's missions in UAE facilitating transportation of Musharraf's mortal remains; ex-military ruler to be laid to rest in Karachi.

 

[VCheng]

The other option is to just let it die (like it is now under both the PTI/PDM governments). Maybe this is the right thing for Pakistan.

Pakistan's claims to Kashmir went south the moment it agreed to make it a bilateral issue after the Shimla Accords. Given the economic and geopolitical disparities that have widened into a yawning gulf since then, it is indeed up to Pakistan how much longer it wants to carry on as if the world has not changed under its very feet. No one else can decide this for Pakistan.

 

[blain2]

Pakistan's claims to Kashmir went south the moment it agreed to make it a bilateral issue after the Shimla Accords. Given the economic and geopolitical disparities that have widened into a yawning gulf since then, it is indeed up to Pakistan how much longer it wants to carry on as if the world has not changed under its very feet. No one else can decide this for Pakistan.

Who do we blame for that?

 

[VCheng]

Who do we blame for that?

We can blame anyone that works for our own views, but the real issue, in my view, is determining where to go next from where we are, and not argue about who do we blame to how we got here. After all, we will never go back into the past, but the future will be upon us whether we are ready for it or not.

 

[Jango]

He did that to further Pakistan's Kashmir claim. In IK's time, our claim on IoK became a non-claim yet nobody holds that against the great Khan sahib.

Phir kuch boloon ga to Bajwa sahab ki shan main gustakhi ho jaye gi

 

[blain2]

Phir kuch boloon ga to Bajwa sahab ki shan main gustakhi ho jaye gi

Frankly, even if you did, it would be yet another episode of "get out of jail card" for someone special. Assign blame to one entity, sub accha to the other. Hope you get what I mean here.

 

[Jango]

Frankly, even if you did, it would be yet another episode of "get out of jail card" for someone special. Assign blame to one entity, sub accha to the other. Hope you get what I mean here.

Well no one can deny that he proposed the idea. That is where it came from.

Also, have a look at the following:

Plot was hatched to freeze Kashmir issue, PM reveals

“I think, no Pakistani politician or serviceman or soldier can even think anything like this,” Shehbaz says.

www.dawn.com

It isn't PTI that's saying it now.

If we just want to blanket ignore everything now since PTI is out for blood against Bajwa, then I don't have any qualms about that.

PTI can go to hell for all I care.

 

[Meengla]

On #3

Why do we hold Kargil against him? I wonder all the time.

He did that to further Pakistan's Kashmir claim. In IK's time, our claim on IoK became a non-claim yet nobody holds that against the great Khan sahib.

Kargil is across the LoC, not IB. It is the Indian side which pushes the narrative that LoC is sacrosanct as it is in their interest to portray this view. Their intervention at Siachen was a clear breakaway from this so called sanctity of the LoC and whatever lies "thence north to the glaciers".

So we self-flaggelate over this while the Indians have no qualms about doing the very same at Siachen and at a cost of far more men and material since 1984. We should have some perspective.

Bugti sahib committed suicide. Figuratively and literally that is. He took up arms against the state. Something that no one would tolerate if MQM did so, yet BLA and variants and TTP for some reason always find a soft corner in the hearts of some here and elsewhere. Bugti sahib is remembered as "shaheed" yet the poor officers of the army who went inside his cave to negotiate and were martyred are forgotten among many other uniformed personnel who died at the hands of Bugti's supporters.

Firstly, the Indians claim of their being oh so peaceful is a lie. After having done 1971, they grabbed parts of Siachen Glacier. BUT... the Kargil War was futile and I encourage you to watch a video from Moeed Pirzarda which I posted in this thread yesterday. Also, Vajpayee coming to Minar e Pakistan was symbolically important: A right wing Indian with real power first time acknowledging Pakistan's existence. There was a chance of peace between Pakistan and India from then. Would Pakistan let its guards down? No, but do the 'Trust, but verify' approach.
About Bugti: Whatever he was, the blowback from his death far outweighs taking out a very old leader who has unfortunately become a symbol of Baluch nationalism. This point, too, is addressed by Moeed Pirzada in that video.

Anyway, a lot of what we are talking here is a moot point: What's been done, is done. It's more important to adjust approach in future, learning from mistakes.

 

[VCheng]

Frankly, even if you did, it would be yet another episode of "get out of jail card" for someone special. Assign blame to one entity, sub accha to the other. Hope you get what I mean here.

No one can wrestle a pig in a mud pit and come out clean and smelling like roses, no matter what is claimed.