Ex-ISI Chief Says Purpose of New Afghan Intelligence Agency RAMA Is ‘to destabilize P

[LiberalPakistani]

I'd rather tell you to read history.Afghan war was a master piece of General Akhther Abdur Rehman and Brig Yousaf.It had nothing to do with General Hamid Gul.

sure it has nothing to do with Hamid Gul he was a Brigadier of PA and no doubt that General Akhther Abdur Rehman helped in Afghan war but in the ground reality Hamid Gul was on his ground with his 2 sons.

 

[Patriot]

So What if he was fighting in Afghanitan??General Akther did not help but actually planned everything along with Brig Yousaf.General Hamid Gul had no role in planning on Afghan War which was done by General Akther Abdur Rehman.General Hamid Gul just took the credit for General Akhther Abdur Rehman and Brig Yousaf work.He could hardly plan any sensible plan let alone the whole afghan war.He did plan a failed operation though.

 

[Xeric]

i never want to get down to this but then you compeled me to kick you more...

A refreshing post of knowledge in a thread full of ignorance.

Yes ofcourse any post that would kick your grions would be termed as ingorant, that's nothing new, so let's carry on.

A similar agency was KhAD as well (Khadamat-e Etela'at-e Dawlati or State Information Agency ). Its just an acronym for God's sake.

Yes that's what it was supposed to do, for God's sake!! It is just an acrynym (RAM) and Jana connected it to the religion just for the sake of it but you were such a fanatic that instead of asking how would the acronym connect the indians with the agency so started asking me to teach you hinduism, that is what i call trolling which you are quite guud at. It was you you asked what the hell do i know about hindusim and how hinduism is connected to hypocrisy. And my answer was simple, i posted a 'few' hypocritical points in your religion but your so dumb that you instead of arguing about the points themselvs and counter them you stupidly connected them with the fringing agency!!! You just missed the fact that Jana just linked the name of the agency with the indians for the sake of it (though i am not denying the fact that the connection would be there).

If some police department uses a battering ram to break open a door, will that indicate an Indian connection?

Again and idiotic point. Why cant you argue about the point under discussion? Why you have to bring in a fallacy to support your points? Why cant you simply ask how did Jana connected Ram with india?

Even if there was some co operation going on between NDS (or RAM) and India, saying that your "proof" is Ram is revered as a god in Hinduism would be surefire to make you a laughing stock in any international forum. So my suggestion is to present some other proof that this.

Again, it is you who are making a lughing stock of yourself!!

How said that it is fringing 'PROOF' to connect Ram with india, this is why i doudbed you intellect earlier. It was joke and a witty response by Jana and one another poster who said RAMA=raw and many afghans, but your brain was unable to comprehend it as usual!!

Ok, what does having 'millions of gods' have to do with 'Hindu ideology' as it relates to the topic. i.e, how exactly does having more than one god relate to the Afghan intelligence agency's actions against Pakistan? (also, they're all the same god AFAIK)

See another instance of stupidity!

i replied you regarding your question where you asked me to prove the hypocrisy in hinduism but then you have the cheeks to change your statement openly!! i reply you for your question and you connect it with Afghanistan, Bravo!!

What does seeking wealth have to do with the Afghan intelligence agency? do Muslims not seek wealth? so I take it that all Hindus seek wealth with a fervent 'madness' and you poor, pious Muslims want none of it? Noble indeed. Do tell the Saudis to give us their oil for free.

So again you have failed to understand what i have said or may be you are doing it delibherately i.e. trolling.

What acquiring wealth has to do with Afghansitan? The answer is nothing! But why would you connect the two things? The acquiring wealth and the contradicting teaching in your religion which says that wealth is bad was the point that i gave, but how on earth did you managed to connect it to Afghanistan?????

Intellect problem, may be?

The celibacy 'thingy' is a choice. Can you tell me exactly where sex is said to be a form of worship, I'm not saying that it couldn't be, but I'd like to see where it says so. Kindly provide a link or two. And what does this have to do with RAAM?

Let me shut you for once and all:

Sex and Hinduism
Hindu Purusharthas:

Purusharthas means objectives of a human being. They are the canonical four ends or aims of human life. They serve as pointers in the life. The four Purusharthas from lowest to highest-

? Kama - pleasure or desire3
? Artha - wealth
? Dharma - righteousness or morality
? Moksha - liberation from the cycle of reincarnation

According to Kama Sutra, "IN the beginning, the Lord of Beings created men and women, and in the form of commandments in one hundred thousand chapters laid down rules for regulating their existence with regard to Dharma, Artha, and Kama." 4 Further it says- "MAN, the period of whose life is one hundred years, should practise Dharma, Artha and Kama at different times and in such a manner that they may harmonize together and not clash in any way. He should acquire learning in his childhood, in his youth and middle age he should attend to Artha and Kama, and in his old age he should perform Dharma, and thus seek to gain Moksha, i.e. release from further transmigration.."5

So, according to Hindu scheme of thing, even though Enlightment is the ultimate goal of life, it encourages people to enjoy everything and fulfill all material desires. Moksha is a long process. It can be achieved only when all material desires are quenched. And hence, Hindu religion prescribes 2 methods, the path of renounciates, the path of householder. There is one more less popular but more maligned path of within "Tantras" which accept everything material, everything condemned as taboo and hence aims to rise above the animalistic desires.

Sex as Yajna:

Yajna or sacrifice is derived from root word "Yaj". It means Worship or offering an oblation.
Max Muller defines Yajna is an act by which we surrender something for the sake of gods"6.
Sex is worship. It is an act by which the couples surrender their ego, in order to gain pleasure, progeny, eventually even enlightment.

"Her lap is a sacrificial altar; her hairs, the sacrificial grass; her skin, the soma-press. The two labia of the vulva are the fire in the middle. Verily, indeed, as great as is the world of him who sacrifices with the Vâjapeya ("Strength-libation") sacrifice, so great is the world of him who practises sexual intercourse"7 (Brhad-Âranyaka Upanisad)

These verses clearly shows that, sex was treated as a form of worship, an act to not only fulfill one"s desires and gain pleasures, but also as an act of sacredness.

Sex as Meditation:

In Vigyana Bhairava Tantra8, during a conversation between Shiva and Shakti,.....

Now dont you dare ask me to argue more about this thing, as you have already showed you true worth and f*ked the thread thoroughly, if you have the guts open a new thread and i'll kick you there.

The Quran teaches you that killing innocents is Haram, yet some of you blow $hit up on a daily basis, kill children, behead journalists, hijack planes, shoot up hotels. Now contrast this with evil Hindus promoting the consumption of meat in the name of liberalism. Also tell me how this relates to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Yes, you tell me how this relates to the Afghan intelligence agency??
That's what i am wondering...how did you come up with this idea that i am connecting it the agency?

Chanakya wasn't a Rishi, or a saint, he was a dude back in the day. What does this have to do with Hinduism? By the same measure, the shadow of Osama, looms large over Islam, should I list all the atrocities committed by Al-Qaeda and attribute them to your entire religion?

Again, it shows your shallow level of understanding, you are connecting the dots as if they are to make a picture in the end, but actually you are making new dots as you like and just connecting them as per your wishes. Strange mentality!

The Arthshastra isn't part of Hinduism. But since you quoted Indira Gandhi, should I quote Osama, or the millions of other Muslims in the world that cried 'Allah hu Akbar' when the twin towers fell? And yes, I myself saw a crowd of 50 Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians go bezerk with happiness and chant 'Allah hu Akbar'. I think its safe to say they weren't the only ones.

BS! Explained it earlier.

So does this mean Islam is a hypocritical and violent religion?

Now we are talking.

That was the first question that you should have asked in response to my post, but then this merits a new thread, we'll do it there.

And you never answered my question, how does this 'Hindu ideology' relate to the Afghan intelligence agency.

Again, dumb head, i never said that the 'HINDU ideology' related to the fringing agency. Dont feed me BS! You dont even know what are you talking about!! Did you read this:

Hey did someone read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeric View Post
Ok, if someone is bringing in the Hindu thingy in this thread, what's wrong with it? i mean let's keep the religion aside but the ideology stays!
And they have the guts to call me a flame!

i shunted out the RELIGION factor out of the thread/discussion on my 23rd post on this thread, but then you are such a loser that you again and again bring the religion inside the thread and then accuse me of spewing hatred? Intellect i mean, really do wonders, grow up!!

Because the name bears resemblance to a Hindu god, you geniuses have deduced that there is an evil Hindu hand behind the agency.

Yes that was said but that was sarcasm, which you obviously missed!! Intellect, may be?

Is there a Pakistani hand behind the PAK-FA program?

Is this the evil Hindu ideology you were talking about by the way? This is the ideology behind the Afghan intelligence agency's actions/motivations?

There are contradictions and Hindu hypocrites, therefore, it has to be a Hindu ideology behind the Afghan intelligence. I knew it.

From the looks of it, Islam seems to be a lot more hypocritical, maybe because Afghans are Muslim, and there are Muslim hypocrites, and contradictions in Islam, there's an Islamic ideology behind the agency's actions. With your logic, it should make complete sense, right?

A classical instance of whining, ranting and talking off topic, you really are dumb.

So in crux this is what i have to say:

Jana and Khalids' witty response was taken by you geniuses as a PROOF of indian involvement in the agency (which might be true as the truth comes out unintentionally which did in this case when you all blasted your way in this thread)

i tried to hammer in your brains that religion may be taken out but the fact that there is an indian hand is behind the agency has to stay in the scope of the discussions to come, to this you dumb headedly said that, rather accused me of connecting the 'hindu ideology' with the agency, (how on earth did you come up with this?? Can you quote a single post where i used the word hindu and ideology together??

i did say that there is hypocrisy in hinduism and i stay by it and can prove it! To this you asked me to prove it which i did by posting post number 53. But unfortunately instead of countering the arguments made in that post you naively connected it with the agency, how classical!! Intellect showers on you.

Now when i tried to get out of the stupid discussion, you and another alike continuously flame baited so that i can again argue with you, this was to the extent that i replied to two posts (# 61 and 65 to Develpero and Nitrogen) which had no connection to the discussion between us, but you still stupidly jumped in the discussion and asked me to define hindu ideology (which was not at all the topic of discussion between me Develpreo and Nitrogen). This shows the extent to which you people can go down to level of pulling legs of other and suck them into stupid discussions.

Now i have answered your stupid queries and expect that you would not raise any more (stupid) questions, as for the hindu ideology which you are so anxious to discuss, open up a thread and i can assure you to do justice with it, though at the expense of my time!!

Hats off to you. Really.

Therefore hats off to you really!!

 

[Xeric]

and His claim to fame is Afghan Jihad in reality he did not do much.Just took the credit from General Akther Abdur Rehman.By the time he came in Afghan Jihad was long over then setup failed operation to capture Jallabad.Not sure how this guy got stars!I am glad Asif Nawaz kicked his sorry ***.

Patriot bro no offence, but..
Gen Gul is no hero for me, nor do i take pride in Afghan jihad for any reason, but what i would to say is that why do we people blame individuals for this? It was a state policy at that time and it was executed with perfection (less the fact that we failed to see the future). It could have been Gen XYZ instead od Gen Akhtar and Gen ABC instead of Gen Gul, but why cant we digest that at that time we didnt have any other option rather then becoming a tool in CIA's hand. When i ask you people to give me an alternative option for that decision where we decided to support CIA you just keep mum and have nothing you say. If anyone can come up with an alternative i would be the most happy man.

 

[Xeric]

So What if he was fighting in Afghanitan??General Akther did not help but actually planned everything along with Brig Yousaf.General Hamid Gul had no role in planning on Afghan War which was done by General Akther Abdur Rehman.General Hamid Gul just took the credit for General Akhther Abdur Rehman and Brig Yousaf work.He could hardly plan any sensible plan let alone the whole afghan war.He did plan a failed operation though.

Still clinging to the individual?

It seems as if you have a personal grudge with the senior command of the military.

 

[Patriot]

Oh Xeric i am not talking against or in favor of Operation Cyclone.Just explaining that it was not General Gul but General Akther and Brig Yousaf who planned all this..The credit should be given to General Akther and Brig Yousaf for sucessful operation and not General Hamid Gul which Many pakistanis tend to do.

 

[Spring Onion]

i never want to get down to this but then you compeled me to kick you more...



Yes ofcourse any post that would kick your grions would be termed as ingorant, that's nothing new, so let's carry on.



Yes that's what it was supposed to do, for God's sake!! It is just an acrynym (RAM) and Jana connected it to the religion just for the sake of it but you were such a fanatic that instead of asking how would the acronym connect the indians with the agency so started asking me to teach you hinduism, that is what i call trolling which you are quite guud at. It was you you !!

Xeric they just wanted to derail the thread simple as that otherwise if my post aimed at religion then it would have connected Nepal too as they are Hindus too.

I still stand by my opinion that the estlablishment of this intellegence agency has to do with India and the acronym RAM-A also points to Indian connection.

I feel the extra "A" was put at the end just to dispell the impression that India is behind it because the actual acronym RAM does ring the bell on this side of the border.

 

[Xeric]

Oh Xeric i am not talking against or in favor of Operation Cyclone.Just explaining that it was not General Gul but General Akther and Brig Yousaf who planned all this..The credit should be given to General Akther and Brig Yousaf for sucessful operation and not General Hamid Gul which Many pakistanis tend to do.

Agreed in totality!

Gen Akhter and Brig Yousaf were the man behind the gun.

BTW, have you read: The Silent Soldier?

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Ram, Ram.

Hai Ram.

I was actually worshiping a goat there, in case some of y'all were wondering....

On topic, the acronym RAM is only 'useful' because it helps Pakistanis to crystallize their beliefs in a useful little acronym.

Something like a Pakistani agency conveniently calling itself EPMU- G. Evil Pakistani Muslims UpToNo - Good.

The only other thing I have to say on the subject is this part of Xeric’s post:

Indian Relations with the Present Setup
India had been playing a backdoor role at the Bonn deliberations, which brought the present government in existence. Thereafter, General Fahim the Afghani Defence Minster the brother of Ahmad Shah Masud also visited Indian. Points to be kept in mind are:

a. The current President Karzai did his postgarduation in political sciences from Shimla in the 80s. With this new set of government, india found in Afghanistan, a Muslim neighbor to counter Pakistan.

b. With four consulates in Jalabad, Kandhar, Heart and Mazar-e-Sharif, besides the embassy in Kabul, india’s diplomatic reach has never been as wide in Afghanistan as it is today. For the first time since partition, india poised to contribute significantly to the political and economic affairs of Afghanistan.

Indian Efforts to Win the Minds of Afghan People

India with the objective of isolation Pakistan is going all out to win the hearts and minds of Afghan people by helping them with the support required for reconstruction and development. Some of the areas of cooperation are:

a. Indian announced a financial assistance of US $ 100 million for Afghanistan

b. Assistance of 1 million ton of wheat.

c. Assistance provided in November 2001:

1. A team of 19 doctors and paramedics deputed at Kabul and Mazar-e-Sharif fo providing medical assistance.

2. Nearly 95 tone of medicines, medical instruments and equipment have been sent.

3. Winter clothing was sent to provide immediate humanitarian relief in December 2001.

4. A consignment of musical instrument was sent to Kabul as requested
by Afghan Radio and Television.

5. A 3 months training program for the Afgahan diplomats commenced at Foreign Institute Delhi.

6. Provided 50 buses for the public transport system. The second lot of 25 Tata buses was handed over in July 2003.

7. A LAN network with internet access via V Sat was established with supply of necessary equipment in the office of Foreign Minister.

8. 12 courses have been indentified ofr training of 250 Afghan police officers and cadets in india, 2 courses have been already completed and 7 are currently running at various police academies in inida (God they all would be so friendly to us)

9. A computer training center has been setup in Kabul for providing training to Afghan officials.

10. Deputation of experts to assist Central Bank of Afghanistan.

11. Approximately 19 ton of vegetable seeds have been supplied to the agriculture ministry.

12. Training of Afghan doctors and paramedics from “Indra Ghandhi Institute of Child Health” at All India Institute of Medical Sciences for 3 months started in 2002.

13. Three airbuses aircrafts gifted to Afghan Airlines (Gosh india is rich)

14. Made in India show was held under the auspices of the Confederation of Indian Industry.
It can be ascertained that india would continue to enhance its influence in Afghanistan in order to exacerbate Pakistan’s internal front and ensure substantial military commitment by Pakistan along with Pak-Afghan border by having best relations with the present Afghan leadership, possessing anti Pakistan sentiments.

Regardless of what else Pakistanis think we're doing in Afghanistan, the above is something no one can or should take offence at. Do it yourself, if you want.

Last: the guy who elaborated the RAMA acronym as RAW And Many Afghans, thanks for making me laugh dude. Outstanding.

 

[SEAL]

I hope GOI will spend some millions on indian people to prevent DNA damage otherwise by 2020 60% indian males will lost their identity "males".

 

[MOSABJA]

what do you say about this part

Several days after I had first spoken with General Gul, the news hit the headlines that the leader of the TTP, Baitullah Mehsud, had been killed by a CIA drone strike. So I followed up with him and asked him to comment about this development. “When Baitullah Mehsud and his suicide bombers were attacking Pakistan armed forces and various institutions,” he said, “at that time, Pakistan intelligence were telling the Americans that Baitullah Mehsud was here, there. Three times, it has been written by the Western press, by the American press — three times the Pakistan intelligence tipped off America, but they did not attack him. Why have they now announced — they had money on him — and now attacked and killed him, supposedly? Because there were some secret talks going on between Baitullah Mehsud and the Pakistani military establishment. They wanted to reach a peace agreement, and if you recall there is a long history of our tribal areas, whenever a tribal militant has reached a peace agreement with the government of Pakistan, Americans have without any hesitation struck that target.” Among other examples, the former ISI chief said “an agreement in Bajaur was about to take place” when, on October 30, 2006, a drone struck a madrassa in the area, an attack “in which 82 children were killed”.

“So in my opinion,” General Gul continued, “there was some kind of a deal which was about to be arrived at — they may have already cut a deal. I don’t know. I don’t have enough information on that. But this is my hunch, that Baitullah was killed because now he was trying to reach an agreement with the Pakistan army. And that’s why there were no suicide attacks inside Pakistan for the past six or seven months.”

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Lets face this reality that our enemy is at our door steps with every thing going on . The best possible thing would be how to tackle them ? this should be the idea of dicussion rather than RAW,RAM,RAMA or Genral Gul or General Akhtar.

The facts which General Gul gaved are not just engraved out of mere nightmare but they are exceptionally true .

 

[Abasin Turi]

ROFL dream on Afghanis....
there's nothing to worry, afghanistan is way behind from us in every walk of life.... secret agency bohat door ki baat hai...!

 

[TruthSeeker]

dude go read some history before posting your BLAH BLAH BLAH ....there are no other like him that would risk thier children for Afghan war that's what Hamid Gul did give him some respect Afghan Jihad was a win for Pakistan's inter-service-intelligence with "CIA" help only money that didn't matter much because we had the will to fight

LiberalPakistani, thank you for telling us the truth of the CIA's involvement. I'm glad that you understand the very small role the US CIA played in the Afghan war and the creation of the Afghan mujaheddin leaders and forces.

 

[EjazR]

Are you guys actually nuts or you just dont want to understand?

Jana was just being sarcastic that the name (RAMA) is showing a hindu connection to the agency. But then more trolls jumped in and stuck to the hinduism 'ideology' which was never being discussed and started asking what hinduism is all about. Now the same trolls are trying scapegoating and blame others for their stupid questions which answered at the cost of derailing the thread. But then ofcourse as they dont want to let the actual topic to be discussed so they still want to provoke others so that the thread gets properly derailed.

But the strange thing is that you who never was available in the start just came busting in and without seeing, observing and thinking jumped into the same shyt of discussion regarding the Ram-hindu connection and are again trying to justify a point which was said in sarcasm by Jana. This is the level of discussion that you want to have and then you and others alike blame others for killing the thread. How lovely!

Whoa relax, I thought Jana was being sarcastic too and a bunch of rofls was my first reaction to his post http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...nce-agency-rama-destabilize-p.html#post449638

I'm sure you will agree with me that muse's post was still the most insightful post out of the entire thread.

If you also think that just using the acronym=RAM=a hindu god=Indian connection is just being sarcastic, then thats good. We are on the same page then.

But Im not sure if Jana was really being sarcastic after he clarified his opinion about the acronym-Indian connection nexus in a later post.

I still stand by my opinion that the estlablishment of this intellegence agency has to do with India and the acronym RAM-A also points to Indian connection.

I feel the extra "A" was put at the end just to dispell the impression that India is behind it because the actual acronym RAM does ring the bell on this side of the border.

Maybe a sarcastic comment as well?