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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

You’re very wrong the land variant of the F-18, the F-18L and the YF-17 was 9G limited while the Naval variant of the F-18, the A, B variants are limited to 7.5G. the F-18 with folding wings, arrester hook and naval landing gear is 38% heavier compared to the F-18L. The YF-17 flew circles around the Naval variant, it was lighter, faster, superior climb rate, superior instantaneous and sustained turn rates. So much so that the Senate held a hearing to find out why the Naval variant was inferior despite having a more powerful engine.

Your comparison is flawed, dbc. The example I gave was a comparison of the F/A Super Hornet in the picture I posted to an equal variant without the folding wings only, not going back to the YF-17 or the F-18L to the F/A-18A since the argument here was taking the current Rafale M and only changing the wings to folding ones. The only difference is the folding wings so the differences are minimal, if any.
 
Your comparison is flawed, dbc. The example I gave was a comparison of the F/A Super Hornet in the picture I posted to an equal variant without the folding wings only, not going back to the YF-17 or the F-18L to the F/A-18A since the argument here was taking the current Rafale M and only changing the wings to folding ones. The only difference is the folding wings so the differences are minimal, if any.
The Super Hornet does not have a variant without folding wings.You are welcome to carry on believing what you like.But you don’t have be a genius to know that folding wings relies on heavy bulky conventional motors and hydraulic systems. If it wasn’t so NASA wouldn’t be commissioned by DARPA to build and test a wing made of shape memory alloy that can fold triggered by thermal memory. The added weight of these motors, hinges and hydraulic systems alters the aircraft’s center of gravity requiring months of effort to rewrite flight control laws, flight test and restrict flight envelope to prevent structural failure.
 
the need for higher G loading is becoming less and less important
Absolutely not sure.
In case of a high level crisis, saying agaisnt China, the use of electronic counter measures will be so high, the battlefield so confuse, the separation between frend or foe so difficult that the use of medium range air to air missile really difficult.
Juste remember desert storm air operations, and how many friend birds were destroyed by friend forces despite IFF.
In this case you will have to positively identify your ennemy, so 30km max. Very near the WVR, where agility is decisiv.

The reason is mainly the evolution of stealth necessity as well as partly sensor fusion capability and not necessarily the folding wings. Stealth and modernization -- as well as commonality throughout the Navy, Marines and USAF
It is strange that USN continue to purchase LO destroyer (Arleigh Burke serial) and not a VLO one as nearly all the worldwide navies, and specially chinese one.
 
The Super Hornet does not have a variant without folding wings.

I realize that. 🙂 I never said there is a version with folding wings. I was making a valid analogy of a hypothetical scenario that "if there was one" then it wouldn't be so drastically different from the existing Super Hornet.

The added weight of these motors, hinges and hydraulic systems alters the aircraft’s center of gravity requiring months of effort to rewrite flight control laws, flight test and restrict flight envelope to prevent structural failure.

You're point is that it's not worth making that variant for the IAF contract for just 26 aircraft, and I essentially agreed with you on that. My point was that it's very well doable and Dassault is very much capable of doing it. That's all. We can certainly agree to disagree.

Absolutely not sure.
In case of a high level crisis, saying agaisnt China, the use of electronic counter measures will be so high, the battlefield so confuse, the separation between frend or foe so difficult that the use of medium range air to air missile really difficult.
Juste remember desert storm air operations, and how many friend birds were destroyed by friend forces despite IFF.
In this case you will have to positively identify your ennemy, so 30km max. Very near the WVR, where agility is decisiv.

That's a good point. Most likely why you see fighters -- more often than not -- carrying standard, short/medium range missiles rather than medium/long range ones depending on the type. MICA IR & EM, IRST more so than Meteors. F-16s, F-15s, F-18s even F-22s carry AIM-9(X) more often than AMRAAMs etc.

When the F-35 was being developed and tested, they had set certain goals for it and when it would fall short of some, they lowered those to make them attainable.

Then they gave it additional support by making it a flying supercomputer, assisted by a vast network-centric environment. They developed its advanced sensor fusion among other things. All that resulted in giving the F-35 a reputation that it essentially would be the one invincible fighter jet out there. It will rule the skies with those capabilities since it will have the lowest observable signature on top of all those other features.

There was also the monopoly of allies; a brilliant way of adding more strength on top of it all. All the allies will not only have all its capabilities, but they will also be able to "plug into" that network-centric environment to make it even more powerful with strength in numbers.

Then they beautifully sold the concept of it engaging enemy targets from the longest distances and have the highest winning percentage because it will always see & shoot the enemy first before they see it. That concept of stealth + technology + assets + strength in numbers has since dominated the direction of aerial warfare. As a result, high G maneuvering was not the top priority, so they were ok with giving it a 7.5 / 8 G cap.

That new direction and the advent of laser weapons, loyal wingmen, new materials, drones/UAVs/UCAVs, advanced automation and especially the use of AI will increase the accuracy and percentage of kill probabilities at longer distances. It will make the parity in strength even more lopsided in favor of the United States and its friends than it already is.

It is strange that USN continue to purchase LO destroyer (Arleigh Burke serial) and not a VLO one as nearly all the worldwide navies, and specially chinese one.

Most likely because of the cost, right? The Zimwalt class destroyers that were supposed to replace the Arleigh Burke cost $22 billion for its development and each ship is $4+ billion lol. As opposed to a little under $2 billion per AB class. But if anything needs stealth more, I would think it's naval platforms since they're easier to spot, harder to maneuver and evade threats making them easier to target and destroy than aircraft and need more additional assets to protect them.
 
My point was that it's very well doable and Dassault is very much capable of doing it.
Given enough time and money, Dassault could transform the Rafale to Optimus Prime.The question in the forefront of the operators mind (Indian Navy) - is the change worth it?Dassault will do whatever the customer wants - on the customers dime of course.
 

Most likely because of the cost, right? The Zimwalt class destroyers that were supposed to replace the Arleigh Burke cost $22 billion for its development and each ship is $4+ billion lol.
I think Zumwalt was far more a Ticonderoga replacement.
 
Take it for what it's worth..

Dassault planning Rafale assembly line in India with an eye on IN and IAF orders

Dassault Aviation of France is planning a Rafale Assembly Line in India with an eye on the Indian Navy and Air Force orders.

According to sources close to the development, India can soon become the first country to produce a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft without being an Original Equipment Manufacturer or the OEM.

Dassault has a current backlog of close to 200 Rafales which includes outstanding deliveries for existing orders of 80 aircraft for UAE, 42 for Indonesia, 12 for Croatia, Egypt 54, Greece 24, Qatar 36 and potential 26 for the Indian Navy.

The sources further revealed that with its current capacity limited to 24 aircraft per year, there is a strong case for Dassault to establish an additional production line at its joint venture, DRAL in India.

India is a big market and the Indian Air Force is looking at purchasing 114 fighter aircraft. RFP for this is expected in the next six months.

This will be one of the largest orders for fighters anywhere in the world. Indian Naval order for 26 aircraft is also expected to be finalised within the next six months with deliveries starting in 2027.

Sources said that the Rafale manufacturing line at DRAL, MIHAN SEZ Nagpur will see an additional half a million square feet infrastructure spread over 4 hangars, with production starting in 2028.

Annual capacity is planned at 24 aircraft per year or two aircraft per month. At an anticipated price of Rs 1,000 crore per aircraft in 2028, it will translate into Rs 24,000 crore sales per annum.

This will require an additional investment of close to Rs 3,000 crore.

In terms of employment opportunities, DRAL will have more than 600 personnel to meet the requirements of the final assembly line for Falcon 2000. With Rafale, this could go past the 1,200 mark.

..
 
I was in College when this MMRCA Topi drama started
Now i am touching 40, and we still dont have a winner.

In the mean time, IAF has inducted 260 Su30MKI in heavy category, 36 Rafales in medium and 40 Tejas MK1 in light category. WHILE the Indian Navy inducted 40+ Mig29k

IAF has placed orders for 83 Tejas MK1A

Indian Navy is also getting 26 Rafale M

But no MMRCA or MRFA

With IAF now looking to order 3rd Tranche of 97 Tejas MK1A/B, the future of MRFA is bleak.

Indian government should do the sane thing and order 36-44 RAFALES for IAF, and bury this deal for ever
 


Rafale makes the most sense
everyone knows that, including the people in IAF and the Ministry of Defense

However the Pencil pushers in MOD will follow the entire procedure while taking the call on MRFA.

The latest spanner in MRFA deal is the additional order for 97 Tejas MK1A/B

With Tejas MK1A also now replacing the Jaguar fleet apart from the Mig21 Bisons, the budget and Room for MRFA is shrinking

MOD has told the IAF to evolve its doctrine around a 35 fighter squadron force which is achievable by 2030 .

India's former Chief of Defense Staff had recommended a batch wise purchase of Rafale
ie 36+36+36 spread between 2020-2030 with each batch coming with incremental upgrades like Inducting 36 Rafale F3R in 2020, 36 F4.2 in 2025 and 36 F5 in 2030.

This is similar to what Indian Navy did with its purchase of 10 Talwar class Frigates and P15A/B class Destroyers
 
Alright, it's now confirmed that the MoD has sent the Letter of Request for 26 Rafales for the IN. 22 Rafale Ms and 4 Rafale D twin seaters.

India gives Letter of Request to France for buying 26 Rafale M fighters for the Navy

The next step would be for the French govt and Dassault to respond with the commercial details of their offer. After that negotiations will begin. Indian Govt and Navy want to fast track this purchase.
 

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