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Clinton Warns Pakistan of "severe consequences."

Well i do not think situation will be that grim however one can also not ignore the fact that you needed IMF bail out....Anyways let me share my thoughts on points...

We needed a bail out package because first there was a world wide economic plunge and second Pakistan was and is involved in WOT which is costing her dearly. Do you still think we will continue with it once US sanctions us?


This is exactly what i am challenging....Let me share my thoughts as per points...

1) Sorry to say but this is wishful thinking...What do you mean by "we have suffered them before and we can suffer them again"....Firstly you yourself is saying that you suffered during the time sanctions were put on...Secondly you are already assuming that sanctions would be lifted....whereas unless and until you don't agree to US terms you are going to be under Sanctions...Not only that it would be followed by Arms embargo and what not...Thirdly are'nt you missing India here??? At the time when her economy is booming, all the major defence dealers(Russia, US, Israel, EU) lining to sell state of art weapons it is suicide for Pakistan to come under any economic sanctions...

PAF has already lost a decage due to last Arms embargo viz-a-viz IAF and anything more would definitely be a deathning blow to your Parity....

By suffering i mean when Pakistan was put under sanctions during the 90s and then even more sanctions when we tested nuclear weapons. We survived. What makes you think we wont this time and i am not assuming that sanctions would be lifted anytime soon. As for PAF we dont need US for that anymore (JF-17, FC-20). Do you really think 18 handful of those F-16s is the only thing PAF is relying on?

2) Here you are relying on Chinese Veto...Not that i am implying that you all weather friend won't come in to help however just to given you an example China did not supported you stand during Kargil and when it comes to terrorism the pressure would be immense on them.... I must say you need to have steel balls to oppose a group consisting of both US and Russia...I hope you agree....

Kargil was a different story altogether. You cannot compare apples with oranges. Do i need to remind you that just before JUD was about to be declared a terrorist outfit China asked Pakistan what do they want? It was us who asked Chinese to back off during that otherwise JUD would never ever been declared a terrorist outfit. Here you are talking about a whole country, one with whom China has a long term strategic interest and partnership. It would be naive for anyone to believe otherwise.

3) Already said that on the facade your Parliament opposes these attacks...So for a common man these are happening without the consent of your political class...Anyways did you just said that You would retaliate against Armed Offensive by America?? I am sure you know about their capabilities....Sir with all due respect we are just third world contries and not even in our dreams can win an armed conflict against Americans...Any retaliation against Americans means long term destruction followed by years of instabality....

I did not speculated, it actually did happened before. Infact the situation became so tense that the US had to send its envoy to cool things down. The armed forces of Pakistan had clear orders to take down anything that violates Pakistans airspace. Why do you think none of those cowboys style stunts were never performed again by the US after that incident and now there is more cooperation and more intelligence sharing w.r.t drone attacks.


It would better to join them and get rid of terrorist who are hell bent of bringing Pakistan to the verge of collapse instead of retaliating to American onslaught.....please don't mind but such talks about retaliation make sense when the opposing Party is India but when American's are your opposing party either agree with them or be ready to become another Iraq....

Not without a heavy price and US is in no position to make Pakistan another iraq, just look at the economy, do you really think they are going to risk it all and go for an all out war with Pakistan. There is no chest thumping, i am stating plain hardcore facts. At most what we can expect is US will ask India to mobilize its forces on the border to built pressure on Pakistan or even initiate a limited conflict but in doing so it will bring a whole set of new problems for the allies in Afghanistan as it will give Pakistan the legal justification to withdraw all its forces and place it on with India. As for the border with Afghanistan, Taliban will take care of that once Pakistan starts to look the other way.
 
I did not speculated, it actually did happened before. Infact the situation became so tense that the US had to send its envoy to cool things down. The armed forces of Pakistan had clear orders to take down anything that violates Pakistans airspace. Why do you think none of those cowboys style stunts were never performed again by the US after that incident and now there is more cooperation and more intelligence sharing w.r.t drone attacks.

Not without a heavy price and US is in no position to make Pakistan another iraq, just look at the economy, do you really think they are going to risk it all and go for an all out war with Pakistan. There is no chest thumping, i am stating plain hardcore facts. At most what we can expect is US will ask India to mobilize its forces on the border to built pressure on Pakistan or even initiate a limited conflict but in doing so it will bring a whole set of new problems for the allies in Afghanistan as it will give Pakistan the legal justification to withdraw all its forces and place it on with India. As for the border with Afghanistan, Taliban will take care of that once Pakistan starts to look the other way.

Sir, the simple reason why United States did not consider taking the aggressive stance against your is not because it was scared of your military, but because they ran short of strategic space in Asia. It would have been a different ball game had the Pentagon got bases in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. The only constraint that United States Armed Forces have now is to withdraw from one of the other two places that are being ravaged by militants. Seriously, even a child should know the world's sole superpower is only employing different strategies to see which one is the best---something which only it can afford and not like other countries that stick to one plan. As someone on this forum said wisely a few days back-- if the United States goes on a full fury mode war with another country, God help them as it won't take them more than a few weeks to flatten their adversary beyond recognition.

Why would United States order India to launch an invasion into your territory? India is neither a part of NATO nor is a volunteer to the ISAF task force either in Afghanistan or Iraq and is more or less a neutral party. While excellent diplomatic relationship exists between the two, There has never been an instance noticed where either of the countries have taken military action against a third country for the sake of the other, establishing India to be a militarily-neutral country.

United States alone has the world largest navy, world's largest air force and world third largest standing army with a defense budget that dwarfs the following 15 countries' defense budgets combined. A permanent member of the UN Security Council and a leader of many world organizations and alliances, do you honestly think that they cannot take unilateral military action if their national security is at an increased threat?

An act of war at the most in your borders would not be directed towards your government but rather towards terrorist hideouts. However, do you not think that military action directed by Pakistani state against American forces, would give the impression that your government supports and protects these militants? Won't it ruin all the efforts that your soldiers have put in to launch attacks against terrorists themselves? Please think with a cool mind what you have said earlier.
 
Sir, the simple reason why United States did not consider taking the aggressive stance against your is not because it was scared of your military, but because they ran short of strategic space in Asia. It would have been a different ball game had the Pentagon got bases in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. The only constraint that United States Armed Forces have now is to withdraw from one of the other two places that are being ravaged by militants. Seriously, even a child should know the world's sole superpower is only employing different strategies to see which one is the best---something which only it can afford and not like other countries that stick to one plan. As someone on this forum said wisely a few days back-- if the United States goes on a full fury mode war with another country, God help them as it won't take them more than a few weeks to flatten their adversary beyond recognition.

Why would United States order India to launch an invasion into your territory? India is neither a part of NATO nor is a volunteer to the ISAF task force either in Afghanistan or Iraq and is more or less a neutral party. While excellent diplomatic relationship exists between the two, There has never been an instance noticed where either of the countries have taken military action against a third country for the sake of the other, establishing India to be a militarily-neutral country.

United States alone has the world largest navy, world's largest air force and world third largest standing army with a defense budget that dwarfs the following 15 countries' defense budgets combined. A permanent member of the UN Security Council and a leader of many world organizations and alliances, do you honestly think that they cannot take unilateral military action if their national security is at an increased threat?

An act of war at the most in your borders would not be directed towards your government but rather towards terrorist hideouts. However, do you not think that military action directed by Pakistani state against American forces, would give the impression that your government supports and protects these militants? Won't it ruin all the efforts that your soldiers have put in to launch attacks against terrorists themselves? Please think with a cool mind what you have said earlier.

Where did i said US is afraid of our military, can you point out one single instance.
I pointed out the same things but with different reasons that US is in no position to attack Pakistan 1) its already heavily engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan 2) economy and 3) If Pakistan backs off from the support there will be a whole new set of problems for the US and NATO troops not to forget that much of NATO supplies go through Pakistan.
So its not about US being a sole super power but a simple fact that for now odds don't favor US to attack another country.

Also whether you consider or not Pakistan has a 700000 strong army properly equipped to fight a conventional warfare backed by an air force and navy. And believe me when i say this and any Indian solider will testify to what i am saying, Pakistan army is no push over.
 
Sir, the simple reason why United States did not consider taking the aggressive stance against your is not because it was scared of your military, but because they ran short of strategic space in Asia. It would have been a different ball game had the Pentagon got bases in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. The only constraint that United States Armed Forces have now is to withdraw from one of the other two places that are being ravaged by militants. Seriously, even a child should know the world's sole superpower is only employing different strategies to see which one is the best---something which only it can afford and not like other countries that stick to one plan. As someone on this forum said wisely a few days back-- if the United States goes on a full fury mode war with another country, God help them as it won't take them more than a few weeks to flatten their adversary beyond recognition.

Why would United States order India to launch an invasion into your territory? India is neither a part of NATO nor is a volunteer to the ISAF task force either in Afghanistan or Iraq and is more or less a neutral party. While excellent diplomatic relationship exists between the two, There has never been an instance noticed where either of the countries have taken military action against a third country for the sake of the other, establishing India to be a militarily-neutral country.

United States alone has the world largest navy, world's largest air force and world third largest standing army with a defense budget that dwarfs the following 15 countries' defense budgets combined. A permanent member of the UN Security Council and a leader of many world organizations and alliances, do you honestly think that they cannot take unilateral military action if their national security is at an increased threat?

An act of war at the most in your borders would not be directed towards your government but rather towards terrorist hideouts. However, do you not think that military action directed by Pakistani state against American forces, would give the impression that your government supports and protects these militants? Won't it ruin all the efforts that your soldiers have put in to launch attacks against terrorists themselves? Please think with a cool mind what you have said earlier.

Pakistan will care naught for the negative impression which any uneducated fool would take from its opposition to US boots on ground, only a fool would consider this as something intentionally done by Pakistan to help the terrorists.

Pakistan will oppose such a move because Pakistan Army openly operating in FATA is also something unprecedented and not easy.
We cannot allow such a thing to happen or we lose any prestige and trust we have gained in the eyes of the local Pakistani Tribesmen, the things which are much more important to win here than the most modern weapons.

It has taken Pakistan a total bloodbath to convince a majority of population that we need to take on the terrorists for our own good and not to help the USA conquer Afghanistan since all hell broke loose only after US invasion.
It has taken a huge cost for us to convince many people that this is not a game.
If USA puts boots on the ground in FATA then this thing shall be exploited by the terrorists to devastating effect; with or without Pakistan opposing such a move.

It will not be akin to Pakistan opposing USA for the sake of terrorists but rather USA openly defying Pakistani sentiments and making our operations a joke that is a cause for concern here (if USA presses for this and decides to do this).
Such an act will do nothing but serve the terrorists since Pakistan cannot let it all pass, if it happens.

Pakistan is taking action openly in the most toughest terrain possible and we have lost a lot of good men in the process, not to mention the colossal innocent civilian losses as a price for taking this hydra on with utmost seriousness.
However it is not a matter of US boots on ground that shall tilt the balance, it is a matter of time and the relationship with the Tribals that will eventually tilt the balance, USA will ruin this if it attempts such a maverick operation.

I do not think USA can afford to do this from logical perspective and in light of a close relationship which it wants to build with Pakistan.
If USA pressurizes our Government in this, i am afraid all Pakistanis will doubt the intentions of USA and resulting unrest will ensure that our successes against the Terrorists will be for naught.
If logic is thrown out of the window then USA can even attack China for that matter, however the cost for such an adventure is not something similar to Afghanistan or Iraq.

I really doubt USA would ever do this.
However for you to suggest that it is directed against the terrorists so nothing to worry about for Pakistan is not correct.
Drones are a different matter since they provide much more flexibility and staying power, still they remain highly unpopular despite any reasoning due to the fact that it is seen as USA directly acting in Pakistani airspace...why would USA want to add another major reason for unrest that will unhinge the whole operation?
Unless USA wishes to unhinge the whole operation, it would not press Pakistan for boots on ground.
The job of boots on ground can be done better here by Pakistan which also maintains excellent troops who are on the hunt for the terrorists.
From sovereignty point of view, even if our troops are inferior, we reserve the right to refuse any particular type of help.

What we expect from USA is to keep manning its posts along the Pakistan Afghanistan border...we are the hammer here and USA should be the anvil...if the intent is really to go after terrorists.
If the intent is something other than this, anything can happen.

A conflict between USA and Pakistan would tenfold increase the threat to USA's national security from unconventional means.
Reason for this is that in case of such a conflict USA would grant an unprecedented recruitment bonus to the terrorists and supporting militants who will spread everywhere in such a huge landmass and threaten the entire region.
 
First, Hillary was paranoid about a Al Qaeda/Taliban takeover of nuclear assets.

Second, she goes on about 'Pakistan is not doing enough in WoT'

Third, she falls in love with our Foreign Minister.

Fourth, visits Pakistan and complains that Pakistani officials do not have any idea about where Al Qaeda is.

Fifth, Pakistani expat convicted of terrorism. Hillary speculates that Pakistani officials do know where Al Qaeda is.

Sixth, we lol.
 
We needed a bail out package because first there was a world wide economic plunge and second Pakistan was and is involved in WOT which is costing her dearly. Do you still think we will continue with it once US sanctions us?

Sir whatever be the reasons i was just pointing out that you needed a bail out...In other words saying that we can survive economic sanctions is a bit over statement because as of Now your economy is in bad shape and any economic sanctions would be a deathning blow....

Also saying that operations in WOT is one of the prime reasons for your sorry state of economy then i would say you are taking overly simplistic analysis...However i would let it go...because ground reality will not change as far as economy is concerned no matter what are the reasons....


By suffering i mean when Pakistan was put under sanctions during the 90s and then even more sanctions when we tested nuclear weapons. We survived. What makes you think we wont this time and i am not assuming that sanctions would be lifted anytime soon.

Man...why it is so hard to understand the point i am making....Anyways lets try another thing ...Explain me how you think under this economy you will survive economic sanctions...May be i would learn a few things from you...


As for PAF we dont need US for that anymore (JF-17, FC-20). Do you really think 18 handful of those F-16s is the only thing PAF is relying on?

Are you kidding me???? F16's are your prime fighters and JF-17(yet to be inducted) are mere supporting roles...We are talking about today's situation and not something 5-10 years from now....Please Let's not post silly things just to prove a point....JF-17 might give you a pride but the fighter still needs lot of work to make it potent....French Avionics for now is on hold and you are still looking for an alternative....


Kargil was a different story altogether. You cannot compare apples with oranges. Do i need to remind you that just before JUD was about to be declared a terrorist outfit China asked Pakistan what do they want? It was us who asked Chinese to back off during that otherwise JUD would never ever been declared a terrorist outfit. Here you are talking about a whole country, one with whom China has a long term strategic interest and partnership. It would be naive for anyone to believe otherwise.

I am sorry to say but i am losing hope that i would be able to show you light....I am not sure why you are so convinced about things which are defying logic....

a) ON ground Kargil was far more important for Pakistan then banning JUD...So its not like comparing Oranges and Apples...Its like what China will/can do when there is a strong international opinion against you.....In international arena organizations just cannot say "Screw you!!! they are my friends no matter what"....

b) So you are saying you let JUD banned....Though off topic but interesting that Pakistan let an organization which is a charity organization(Pak POV) banned....Not sure if you can but would like to see some reputable links proving the same...


I did not speculated, it actually did happened before. Infact the situation became so tense that the US had to send its envoy to cool things down. The armed forces of Pakistan had clear orders to take down anything that violates Pakistans airspace. Why do you think none of those cowboys style stunts were never performed again by the US after that incident and now there is more cooperation and more intelligence sharing w.r.t drone attacks.

Sir understand the basic difference here....Its the need of the situation...Let me repeat what i said in my first post...If there is any succesful terror strike in US there would be need for a tangible action...I am sure then cowboys style stunts will haunt you then...

Not without a heavy price and US is in no position to make Pakistan another iraq,
Explain to me on military terms how can you take on US....What possible damage you can do to them....Mind it i am asking Pakistan Military might vs US military might...

just look at the economy, do you really think they are going to risk it all and go for an all out war with Pakistan.
An all out war with Pakistan is going to be damn easy...Irony is on side you claim that Pak can sustain economic sanctions even in this sorry state of economy however US cannot sustain another war because of her economy....Also what about you...Would you be able to sustain any attack on Pakistan???

There is no chest thumping, i am stating plain hardcore facts. At most what we can expect is US will ask India to mobilize its forces on the border to built pressure on Pakistan or even initiate a limited conflict but in doing so it will bring a whole set of new problems for the allies in Afghanistan as it will give Pakistan the legal justification to withdraw all its forces and place it on with India. As for the border with Afghanistan, Taliban will take care of that once Pakistan starts to look the other way.

This one was the most amazing logic that you come up with...As if India is US pawn and will mobilize her Army at the very order of US....Please give me one incident in our history where we mobilized our troops on anybody's order....
 
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Well Well Well..........A thin red Line.......

Will Pakistan be next Afganistan.....a few more Pakistani bombers in New York Times Square and i bet Uncle Sam will be seeing someoNE.....

and the Nuclear threat will also not go as Uncle Sam has more than 5000 in his Pocket...who will save........from Uncle's Sam's fury...its time that pakistani youth shud be guided in a proper manner otherwise these guys fall in wrong hand and end up making a brand terrorist...perhaps its the time that people in pakistan shoud shred all those people who teach and spread hatred....otherwise these youths being a finanical or business consultant end up being a terrorist.....perhaps worst a pakistani born terrorist....tarnishing pakistan image globally.....
 
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What has happened to pakistan' youth......this latest pakistan born terrorist..was doing good and suddenly fcuk*d up ...so much of hatred and extremist...it's real hard time for all pakistani living outside....now there is a doubt and these pakistani persons are living under fear.....and for all Federal and european Airports...pakistani passports will bear heaviness on minds of everybody...people might think that a guy living next door a pakistani.....is a terrorist.......that is relly bad...and i really feel pity :(
 
Where did i said US is afraid of our military, can you point out one single instance.
I pointed out the same things but with different reasons that US is in no position to attack Pakistan 1) its already heavily engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan 2) economy and 3) If Pakistan backs off from the support there will be a whole new set of problems for the US and NATO troops not to forget that much of NATO supplies go through Pakistan.
So its not about US being a sole super power but a simple fact that for now odds don't favor US to attack another country.

Your statement implied that If I may, does the following statement not kind of say it:

"Not without a heavy price and US is in no position"

Also whether you consider or not Pakistan has a 700000 strong army properly equipped to fight a conventional warfare backed by an air force and navy. And believe me when i say this and any Indian solider will testify to what i am saying, Pakistan army is no push over.


Pakistan might be a strong military force for all I know (which is limited when it comes to the military might of countries in your region), but why are you bringing the Indians in this context? Indians don't have an economy of US$13 trillion, don't have the largest air force and Navy, don't have 11 super carriers, don't have the stealthiest submarines on the planet of their own, don't have an entire array of intel satellites at their command yet, don't have a fleet of armed-to-teeth cutting edge strike drones of their own and finally, don't have a defense budget of US$ 600+ billion annually.

So why even bring them into the equation? Your conflict with your larger neighbour has been fought under a completely different set of circumstances than what you would be possibly fighting with United States (Heavens forbid that such a war should ever happen).
 
Well Well Well..........A thin red Line.......

Will Pakistan be next Afganistan.....a few more Pakistani bombers in New York Times Square and i bet Uncle Sam will be seeing someoNE.....

and the Nuclear threat will also not go as Uncle Sam has more than 5000 in his Pocket...who will save........from Uncle's Sam's fury...its time that pakistani youth shud be guided in a proper manner otherwise these guys fall in wrong hand and end up making a brand terrorist...perhaps its the time that people in pakistan shoud shred all those people who teach and spread hatred....otherwise these youths being a finanical or business consultant end up being a terrorist.....perhaps worst a pakistani born terrorist....tarnishing pakistan image globally.....
Priez pour que cette situation n'arrive pas. :)
 
The accused, Faisal Shahzad, is a naturalised American citizen of Pakistani origin. I think that there was a double game going on in the previous years, where we got a lot of lip-service but very little produced, was how Ms Clinton described the previous regime’s double-faced stance on taking out the militants. She appreciated the incumbent government’s cooperation and commitment in war against terror however her warning seems irrational and out of context. Pakistan is front line ally in war on terror and rendered many sacrifices, and the incumbent Government proved that it wants total eradication of militancy. However Mr Shahzad’s links to the Pakistani Taliban and in particular his reported training in North Waziristan has made it incumbent on us that we do not sit back complacently otherwise US has number of options It can bomb North Waziristan itself, intensify the drone attacks, bring boots on the ground, or declare war against Pakistan in the worst-case scenario. We cannot afford any of these options given how heavily dependent we are on American aid, both economic and military. Thus there is no need to be get sentimental on what Hilary Clinton said, but we need thinking to get rid of this menace completely.
 
The accused, Faisal Shahzad, is a naturalised American citizen of Pakistani origin. I think that there was a double game going on in the previous years, where we got a lot of lip-service but very little produced, was how Ms Clinton described the previous regime’s double-faced stance on taking out the militants. She appreciated the incumbent government’s cooperation and commitment in war against terror however her warning seems irrational and out of context. Pakistan is front line ally in war on terror and rendered many sacrifices, and the incumbent Government proved that it wants total eradication of militancy. However Mr Shahzad’s links to the Pakistani Taliban and in particular his reported training in North Waziristan has made it incumbent on us that we do not sit back complacently otherwise US has number of options It can bomb North Waziristan itself, intensify the drone attacks, bring boots on the ground, or declare war against Pakistan in the worst-case scenario. We cannot afford any of these options given how heavily dependent we are on American aid, both economic and military. Thus there is no need to be get sentimental on what Hilary Clinton said, but we need thinking to get rid of this menace completely.


Bolded part sums up the maturity that you have to take on sensitive issues...I understand the patriotism but jingoism will not help either as the case with some friends here...So there is nothing wrong in accepting the ground reality and carving a strategy to work out the situation....

Kudos to you :)
 
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Sir whatever be the reasons i was just pointing out that you needed a bail out...In other words saying that we can survive economic sanctions is a bit over statement because as of Now your economy is in bad shape and any economic sanctions would be a deathning blow...

Also saying that operations in WOT is one of the prime reasons for your sorry state of economy then i would say you are taking overly simplistic analysis...However i would let it go...because ground reality will not change as far as economy is concerned no matter what are the reasons....




Man...why it is so hard to understand the point i am making....Anyways lets try another thing ...Explain me how you think under this economy you will survive economic sanctions...May be i would learn a few things from you...




Are you kidding me???? F16's are your prime fighters and JF-17(yet to be inducted) are mere supporting roles...We are talking about today's situation and not something 5-10 years from now....Please Let's not post silly things just to prove a point....JF-17 might give you a pride but the fighter still needs lot of work to make it potent....French Avionics for now is on hold and you are still looking for an alternative....




I am sorry to say but i am losing hope that i would be able to show you light....I am not sure why you are so convinced about things which are defying logic....

a) ON ground Kargil was far more important for Pakistan then banning JUD...So its not like comparing Oranges and Apples...Its like what China will/can do when there is a strong international opinion against you.....In international arena organizations just cannot say "Screw you!!! they are my friends no matter what"....

b) So you are saying you let JUD banned....Though off topic but interesting that Pakistan let an organization which is a charity organization(Pak POV) banned....Not sure if you can but would like to see some reputable links proving the same...




Sir understand the basic difference here....Its the need of the situation...Let me repeat what i said in my first post...If there is any succesful terror strike in US there would be need for a tangible action...I am sure then cowboys style stunts will haunt you then...


Explain to me on military terms how can you take on US....What possible damage you can do to them....Mind it i am asking Pakistan Military might vs US military might...


An all out war with Pakistan is going to be damn easy...Irony is on side you claim that Pak can sustain economic sanctions even in this sorry state of economy however US cannot sustain another war because of her economy....Also what about you...Would you be able to sustain any attack on Pakistan???



This one was the most amazing logic that you come up with...As if India is US pawn and will mobilize her Army at the very order of US....Please give me one incident in our history where we mobilized our troops on anybody's order....

None of your argument holds any value because everything that you say is based on mere assumptions on your part which are all made up in your mind as a result of seeing Pakistan constantly from an Indian prism. My suggestion to you should be to come out of the shell and see the reality for what it is and not what you think it is. Times have changed.
Moreover you are beating around the same bush over and over again for which I have already answered your questions and hence no need for me to further chase you in circles. Hope you understand let us all agree to disagree.
 

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